Dear, Lemmy...
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Hi, Lemmy! So I made two mistakes. But I’d like to inform Lemmy, that there is a free speech version of the Lemmy code being used to throw racial slurs around. That instance is called goatpen.co I advise you not to go there, as you will come across racial slurs on the front page.

So my first mistake was asking what people on discussions.app like to use for different social networks. One instance, as mentioned above was goatpen.co. My curiousity got the better of me, and I went to check it out. That was my second mistake. That place is a cesspool.

That’s all I wanted to say. Someone or some company is using lemmy’s code to host a lemmy-clone and make it a cesspool.

@nutomic
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Lemmy is open source, meaning that anyone can use it for whatever purpose they like. Realistically there is nothing we can do against that. The sooner we accept this reality, the better.

In my opinion, the main goal of Lemmy as a project is to challenge proprietary social media like Reddit. That wont be achievable if we try to exclude anyone from using Lemmy. Of course that doesnt mean that we have to agree with their opinions, and block tools exist exactly for this reason.

Also, I think if these extremists leave Reddit, that could eventually lead to their deradicalization. Reddit has no real incentive to deradicalize them, because more users and more activity means more ad money for them. But fediverse instances are usually run by volunteers in their free time, who have less incentive to permit such toxicity.

@libre_warrior
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Exactly! Algorithms ends up favouring polarization for the sake of polarization. Decentralized social infrastructures takes away this destructive element of social infrastructures and that alone will have a positive effect.

@southerntofu
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The problem is not polarization. The opposite of polarization is universal thought control. The problem is fascism and that Reddit communities are very reactionary and keep on pushing an alt-right agenda.

@libre_warrior
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I acknowledge that the word polarization is favoring centrism. I’d be pleased to hear an alternate word to describe the systematic effects on how people are clustered in attention maximization algorithms.

jhghjb (he/they)
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Realistically there is nothing we can do against that

except there are things you could do, if you were using an ethical open source license you’d be able to shut down goatpen.co without trouble

@handvat
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Just like a kitchen knife can be used by murderers does not mean that the kitchen knife manufacturer should actively monitor who is buying their knifes and go after the ones with bad intentions in my opinion. In the same way, I don’t think free software should be licensed under such an ethical open source license.

First of all, it’s just very hard to enforce I’d imagine. Would people who do not care about respecting human rights to begin with even care about such a license? You’re not stopping “evil” by making up rules that “evil” people don’t follow almost by definition. At least the license is more clear about what is considered as acceptable and what not unlike the infamous “The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil” clause, for which I have to give it some credit.

Everything you can make can be used for wrong things and I suppose you’ll have to accept that you’ll never have full control over that. The only thing that can stop something to be used by people with bad intentions is to never create it in the first place.

Besides, I´d rather have my enemy use open source software instead of closed source software. If they use open source software, it’s easier to get a grasp on what they’re capable of.

For software like Lemmy with federation, I’d just say to block those from federating to your own instances and stop giving those instances attention. As long as the flagship instances that federate with each other keep up a positive attitude, I would just ignore those extremist people’s instances

jhghjb (he/they)
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Just like a kitchen knife can be used by murderers does not mean that the kitchen knife manufacturer should actively monitor who is buying their knifes and go after the ones with bad intentions in my opinion

wrong

I’d just say to block those from federating to your own instances and stop giving those instances attention

that humanizes them, they’ll feel like “i’m not allowed there but at least i can exist”, which is a very dangerous precedent

@Thann
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Can you explain how we could practically ban kitchen knives from being bought by murders? Also, have you seen minority report?

jhghjb (he/they)
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Can you explain how we could practically ban kitchen knives from being bought by murders?

other, more progressive, countries have done it: https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

Also, have you seen minority report?

i support minorities so i would never report them

@joojmachine
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i support minorities so i would never report them

ok that got a genuine chuckle out of me

jhghjb (he/they)
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you think it’s a joke? i’m out here fighting hate online by moderating reddit 10+ hours a day so people like you can have a nice environment

@joojmachine
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learn to take a joke bro, minority report is the name of a show so yeah, I think your reaction was funny

jhghjb (he/they)
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i apologize for not reading you comment properly and misinterpreting what you said

but i still find concerning that a movie with ‘minority’ in the name has a wh*te protagonist

@roastpotatothief
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it’s not about that kind of minority. you should watch it. it’s very good. makes you think about these issues a new way.

jhghjb (he/they)
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downloading it rn 👍

@a_Ha
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So, how did you like the movie ?

jhghjb (he/they)
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yeah, less than 3 minutes for the first bipoc womxn to appear, for a 2002 movie it is pretty damn impressive

@a_Ha
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  1. bipoc : Black, Indigenous, (and) People of Color POC,

  2. womxn is an alternative spelling of the English word woman. Wikipedia

it’s been a long time since i saw that film : please recall me who was that character 🤔

jhghjb (he/they)
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not a prominent (or even named) character unfortunately but the representation made me happy

@slacktoid
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The word minority has multiple definitions, to be clear refer to non white non straight people as minorities is ambiguous, they as a collective are a minority of the population and so so colloquially called minorities.

@TheAnonymouseJoker
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I died of laughter here. Thanks.

@Thann
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That is about banning long folding knives, not kitchen knives. Fundamentally you can ban things to prevent murders. You can ban some things to try and reduce the rate, but you can never stop murders from happening.

@lorabe
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what is going on in there, i am a minority in usa and if i suck as a person i deserve to be held accountable.

Please don’t give me a privilege that i didn’t request.

@lorabe
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Alright buddy you funny, i’m gonna take you as a troll account, but we need those in here. Welcome to lemmy.

jhghjb (he/they)
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check your privilege

@lorabe
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I will ;)

@Nasst
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Please tell me you’re a troll.

“At least I can exist” being “dangerous precedent” is low key advocating for genocide, btw.

@slacktoid
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Could you elaborate with a reason or so for why they are wrong?

jhghjb (he/they)
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i do not engage in bad-faith discussion

@slacktoid
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I have an issue with the ethical open source license, this is irrespective of my stance on free software, which is being ethical is ambiguous, it depends on the reader or interpreter as to what ethical is.

For example I would consider being anti racist ethical but someone else could interpret being anti racist as racist ( or however they victimize themselves )

That ambiguity, that my stupid ass could come up with off the cuff, is why its a bad license to use.

jhghjb (he/they)
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being racist is universally wrong

@southerntofu
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How could anti-racism be racist? Sure you can have resentment and preconceived ideas about a person based on their skin color, but racism is far more than this. First because there’s cultural racism, too. Second, because racism is a structural oppression which distirbutes power and resources unequally: there is not a single place on Earth to my knowledge where white people are victims of structural racism.

@Helix@feddit.de
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there is not a single place on Earth to my knowledge where white people are victims of structural racism

South Africa, right now.

@shortcakefediverse
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deleted by creator

poVoq
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This video is crap, he doesn’t even make a logical argument against “ethical software”.

I also disagree with the idea behind “ethical software” because it is a bit like DRM, i.e. it has the potential to hurt the honest people that follow licenses, but those “unethical” people will laugh about it and use the software anyways.

@Thann
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Ethics have to be dictated… By a dictator…

@shortcakefediverse
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deleted by creator

@KLISHDFSDF
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Completely disagree with the video, pick any example and I can counter it logically.

If I make a hammer and my “usage license” states it can’t be used to threaten or intimidate others, is that unethical? If I make software and say you can only use it if you don’t threaten or intimidate others, is that unethical?

I’m not sure I see whats wrong with an ethical license. It’s not about “changing others” as the video you linked states multiple times, its about not enabling hate groups to leverage tools/resources for evil.

Edit: I don’t know who that guy in the video is but he’s projecting A LOT. Claiming the “ethical software” devs are “damaged broken people” - You take this man seriously?

jhghjb (he/they)
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distrotube is an alt-right free software extremist cryptofascist youtuber that frequently attacks Coraline Ada Ehmke, a trans woman that founded the Ethical Source organization, he’s the worst of the worst

@shortcakefediverse
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deleted by creator

riccardo
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It was only a matter of time before alt-right instances championing “free speech” started to pop out - this is the first one I hear about, I was expecting them to adopt Lemmy earlier

riccardo
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@sinewyshadow
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I mean, I guess it was inevitable? It’s just sad to see good code go to waste to the alt-right/neo-nazi subhumans

@nutomic
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subhumans

This is exactly the language that fascists use, please dont copy their shitty ideas.

@sinewyshadow
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I could use scum or pieces of shit?

Dessalines
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Sure.

@sinewyshadow
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Thank you for pointing out how toxic my language was. I will try to change what I say.

@nutomic
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Also, the code doesnt “go to waste”. Any user less on corporate social media is a benefit for humanity.

@sinewyshadow
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I meant “go to waste” as in be used the wrong way. Or for nefarious purposes.

@TheAnonymouseJoker
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Please consider to look at how federation and FOSS code/platforms work. I made a parent comment, and nutomic’s comment is also nice.

@roastpotatothief
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am i the only person who wants these people to have a space to talk to each other?

they remind me of teenagers, when i read their forums, stupid immature ideas. they are on the road to nowhere.

they can learn to think properly and become adults, and the best way is by talking to adults. the worst thing for them (and for society) is keeping then isolated.

the ideal is keeping them in a big community where new ideas can leak into their filter bubbles. but failing that, they just need any community, to practice feeling empathy and social skills, stop then becoming radicalised by hatred.

poVoq
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To some extend, but these kind of bubbles can also lead to stupid shit that can kill them and others. See for example the attempted take-over of the US parliament at the beginning of this year.

@roastpotatothief
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I totally disagree, but it sounds like the kind of argument we could discuss forever and get bogged down in and never learn anything.

@sinewyshadow
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Have you seen the episode of Mythic Quest where the game is invaded by a bunch of Nazis, so they isolated a server in the game where all the Nazis were, and they all shouted slurs and rhetoric at each other?

@roastpotatothief
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No. Is it “Mythic Quest: Raven’s Banquet”? Do you recommend it?

What are you getting at anyway?

@sinewyshadow
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Maybe, if we let them all shout profanities and obscenities at each other they will know how it feels to be on the other side, thus making them stop saying it, but that’s a long shot.

@roastpotatothief
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Would be an interesting experiment. Either they form a supportive community, develop human feelings, stop being so paranoid … they argue about stupid stuff forever … they get bored after a while and leave … the group gets diluted by more rational people …

Whatever happens, it’s much much better than having nothing, leaving them isolated as sad individuals shouting at the wall and getting more and more enraged.

@sinewyshadow
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Exactly! I feel bad for these sad, fearful creatures. They are only enabling each other’s hate and fear more and more. I closed my accounts, so I won’t be countering any of their rhetoric. But if anyone else wants to take up the endeavor, by all means. Like I said, these sad, fearful creatures need help to learn that life isn’t that bad.

@roastpotatothief
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IMO it’s just a natural human way to be - though i know not everyone would agree.

They just lack empathy for people they don’t know or care enough about to understand. The same way other people lack empathy for them.

In a more open society, with more types of interaction, people don’t get the option to be dismissive of each other as much.

That’s where this comes from, this idea helping people we abhor. And of keeping our enemy close to us, so we can influence him before he gets out of control

Dessalines
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Seems to be gone / down for the moment. Good.

@OsrsNeedsF2P
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It is precisely because of censorship these people became further and further radicalized, without the opportunity for regular people to arrive at their new locations and tone it down a bit. Lemmy is making the right call to do nothing about this.

Travis Skaalgard
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Yes. The liberal tendency to excommunicate people from polite society and shove them into underground spaces where these horrible rightoid ideas fester has created this type of thing. It’s like a teenager trying to cover their acne by letting their long hair cover their face. It’s making it worse.

@ndarwincorn
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…that’s the opposite of a liberal tendency. Liberalism is what gave us free speech, and modern liberals are pretty tolerant of fash speech. Which is the real problem because deplatforming works.

Travis Skaalgard
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I’m using the word “liberal” in the way it is generally understood in the United States right now. I’m not referring to “classical liberalism.” And deplatforming may work for getting certain kinds of speech off a platform, but ensuring these people interact solely with each other only ensures their right-wing ideas fester in private and bubble up to the surface later, much worse.

QuentinCallaghan
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Actually there is also Votal.net run by Ruqqus refugees. And when I say “Ruqqus refugees”, it tells a lot about their view of free speech. The site appears to be currently under maintenance. According to statistics by The Federation, Votal.net was briefly the second-biggest Lemmy instance.

@nutomic
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Whats interesting is that they kept the slur filter, and banned a lot of users who were spamming slurs.

QuentinCallaghan
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They had at least some moderation rules!

@a_Ha
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The :Admin of “votal.net” was opposed to slurs. it was a tool to steer votal in a better direction. Also the server is//was hosted in Switzerland where law prohibits apology of genocide. i do believe :A got fed up, tired and disgusted so :A closed the site because of too many neonazis, racists, antivax and such.

Kromonos
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Boredom among bullies, Nazis and other negativist trolls seems to be just getting into high gear. It’s really sad to see how much content they get in a short time 😔

@xarvos
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I see just an empty page saying the domain is registered.

@sinewyshadow
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It might be preview.goatpen.co

@Morys
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Vile

@sinewyshadow
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That’s what I’m saying

@Morys
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I’m agreeing 👍👍

@xarvos
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Oh ok, those posts are certainly bad

@sinewyshadow
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Free speech platforms are kinda stupid. I just told two people not to use racial slurs, be a decent human being, that sort of thing, and I got called out for virtue signaling. Idgaf about virtue signaling, be a decent goddamn human being! Also, communities.win is full of snowflakes. I got banned from a community for calling out antisemitism and homophobia. So stupid.

@TheAnonymouseJoker
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Lemmy is a federated FOSS forum-style social network. Anyone is free to create instances, and I knew one day this would happen.

Ideas are implemented using tools. Tools are not bad themselves, the ideas are depending on moral conscience, generally guided by a few set of rules like not letting people fall for vices of life (excess of anything, sex, drugs, gambling et al), or critical information that threatens their lives, or people being stopped from harassing or discriminating against others.

Avoid the instance like you do Gab or Parler or whatever the hell is out there. Internet is a virtual manifestation of the real world with a lot of pseudonymous and deanonymised creators and users. Learn to live with it. Improvise, adapt and overcome.

@daelphinux
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It appears to have been taken down. FWIW

@libre_warrior
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Looks like the domain is not in use anymore though.

@Gmork
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It is. The full URL is https://preview.goatpen.co/

I’m glad this thread was made. I discovered the site yesterday and had questions as to the Lemmy roots with it proudly boasting ‘join Lemmy’ at the bottom of the page.

@sinewyshadow
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Maybe it’s the alcohol or maybe I’m just in a good mood, but what if we were kind to these people? I’m not saying make friends with them, but y’know, show them kindness, a little compassion. Would that be bad to do?

@southerntofu
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On an individual basis, why not. But fascism cannot be combatted with kind words.

Crylo (he/him)
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The unfortunate reality of uncorporate controlled social media is that we get uncorporate controlled social media of undesirable types.

@sinewyshadow
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So, I watched a video from Ally Hills and she made a username but it was an abbreviation for different words. Well…I joined communities.win and made a username which is an acronym for different words as well, and I’m kinda trolling people on there.

@sinewyshadow
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HOLY SHIT…I HAD A BRILLIANT IDEA! Since most free speech networks run on blockchain, and most of them aren’t moderated, if a user uses a racial slur, they LOSE bitcoin or crypto when they get downvoted. What do you think?

Relected
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Odysee does that, but their main focus are videos and not posts

@sinewyshadow
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I suggested this very concept on r/redditalternatives and was told it’s not true free speech. I’m all for free speech as long as it creates an open and respectful dialogue. If someone wants to be an unintelligent buffoon and shout racial slurs then that’s not creating a dialogue and there should be a punishment. Am I wrong?

Relected
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sorry, i think its literally impossible to have a “free-speech” platform without having an unintelligent buffoon that shouts racial slurs in it.

A community dedicated to fediverse news and discussion.

Fediverse is a portmanteau of “federation” and “universe”. It is a common, informal name for a federation of social network servers whose main purpose is microblogging, the sharing of short, public messages.

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