Nacism is a left wing ideology like communism. They have the same dad - socialism. I don’t see anyone complaining about communists here.
Why ban one and not another?
So that is why the nazis shot the communist, and the commies were their wurst enemies.
And here I was thinking that if socialist are really are communists and nazis were socialist and thus communists they would have worked together in their country. United by their identical way of thinking.
As is always the case when political parties
are identical.
What about opening any History book and see how little socialist NSDAP was? Shall we leave nazis define themselves or are we open to assess what they were critically?
Me.
See, Voat ended up like it did because of the blatant bias of banning. I hope Lemmy would get all kinds of people here to stay, not just one political leaning or subset. The federation sure looks like a good solution for this, since one can simply ban a whole instance they don’t like and be done.
As long as we all have an interest in Lemmy it should’t become an echo chamber.
I’m genuinely curious, looking to move from Reddit due to heavy-handed mod abuse and the extreme leftist bias of virtually all the big subreddits. Is Lemmy going to be a place where free speech is honored, or will conservatives always get the boot like on Reddit? I’m not talking about hate speech or calls for violence, I’m just as against that as the next person. But I’d like to know I’m not going to get banned because my opinion differed from that of a mod.
The whole point of federation is that instead of joining a single centralized service, you’re joining the federation by joining a specific instance or creating your own instance. If you feel moderators on a certain instance are being heavy-handed you have the option to use a different instance which can still communicate with that other instance.
As the network topology is completely different on a federated platform, moderation actually happens in two layers; instance-to-user and instance-to-instance. Instances each have their own codes of conduct, which users on that specific instance are expected to respect. On top of that, instances also have the ability to block (defederate) with other instances if it is seen as necessary for the protection of the users of that instance.
You may be interested in how this works in practice on Mastodon. Mastodon.social, the flagship instance, has a code of conduct and a list of blocked instances along with - importantly - the reason they are blocked. As you will notice, not one of those instances is blocked for “different opinions” but rather for harassment and illegal content.
I think the important point to stress about how federated software works is that you can always host your own, or find an instance hosted by someone whose views you jive with, even if the flagship instance has moderation you don’t like. This is explicitly planned for, in fact–Lemmy has features surrounding convenient NSFW flags on content at the same time that porn is totally banned on the flagship instance (this one). That’s because it’s meant for people to host their own instances where they can moderate how they like. Tradcath Lemmy? Sure! No-English-allowed Lemmy? Si quieres, sí se puede.
The problem is that a lot of people actively engaging in hate speech and harassment, or actively supporting it, regularly blur the lines between ‘free speech’ and hate speech, and have a distorted worldview where they represent themselves as a persecuted minority, when really they are just flagrantly violating rules and need to be banned immediately.
So I think it is very necessary, and very needed to have a healthy skepticism of people who claim to just be interested in free speech, because to those who have been following the modern evolution of trolling and harassment, those concepts have been utilized as a weapon by trolls who want to engage in hate speech and harassment.
You aren’t talking about hate speech or calls for violence, so I would think you ought to be fine. But trolls who engage in coordinated harassment and try to call THAT behavior “free speech” are the #1 problem to watch out for.
Well the first thing preventing it is that they already implemented their contingency plan months ago and the subreddit has had submissions restricted for three months already while people were shuffled off to their new dedicated site, so the ban was a purely symbolic gesture on Reddit’s part anyways.
The main thing preventing that is capturing of initial user base.
The next part is finding a person who has some understanding psychology and know what a healthy community looks like to moderate.
Something like a code of conduct is typically the correct way of doing things. Neither is strong moderation abilities, since almost all moderators are influenced by other users and their own opinions.
More seriously I think Mastodon’s general rejection of Gab taught us that federated software can have an immune system in the form of instance admins/mods blocking federation.
Yes but caveat: code of conduct is not enough. [note] The point is the community (adminx being part of that) is ready to prompt rejections of harmful content. This can only be done with awareness, education, communication, etc..
[note] In principle, it may even be irrelevant for lil’ instances where everybody knows each other… but it helps.
Strong moderation abilities, and instance admins like ourselves who actually ban white supremacist communities and not sit on their hands about hosting the largest one on the internet, for years.
edit: like just today, we had a few TERF communities try to set up here. It took us less than a day to ban them. Its not difficult.
That should probably be in the README/FAQ.
From what I could gather in the recent Reddit thread, Lemmy becoming yet another Reddit clone that turns into a Nazi bastion is a common concern driving people away from giving the platform a chance.
A few weeks ago you could find Gab (neo-nazi/white supremacist leaning instance) at the top of this list about most of the instances in the fediverse. Gab was a huge instance: ~1mln accounts, i.e. ~2x the number of accounts of Mastodon flagship instance. (numbers were inflated btw)
Why did Gab leave the fediverse? Because the rest of the fediverse campaigned to de-federate a neo-nazi/white supremacist instance. At the end of its story in the fediverse, Gab had an estimated insularity of 99.3% (source): that means 7 messages out of 1000 were directed outside that instance. The estimation is an upper limit, including outwards messages that actually cannot reach other instances (since these instances suspended Gab).
Now, according to the source above, Gab devs are discussing to drop the support for the fediverse. In the meantime, it is an insular instance.
The reality is that they can already do that with plenty of existing services. Lemmy isn’t providing a new an unique opportunity for nazis to communicate that wasn’t available to them previously.
That said, the moderation and federation rules do appear to work in practice as seen with Mastodon where similar concerns have been raised. The one nazi instance is its own bubble, and nobody federates with it.
I think this is the perfect response, and part of my optimism about lemmy. I hope that this view of moderating is hard-coded (so to speak) into the DNA of lemmy, and I think it’s just as important to have a strong ethos like this as it is to have a well-designed link-aggregating tool.
That’s good to hear, I’ve got very little idea of how the fediverse works nor how moderation works on these types of sites so thanks for clarifying. I had a look to see if c/the_donald existed and although it seems to, I could see the following:
Make America Great Again removed by mod
No Posts.
Does that mean the community has been removed by a mod then or something else?
So with the way Lemmy currently works, could someone create a community, write some hate speech in the community description and that description stays up forever?
E: Apologies if it would have been more appropriate to ask this question in c/lemmy_support
Additionally, there is a plan to implement a purge feature for particularly egregious posts, but as long as these communities are not allowed to spread their roots here, there shouldn’t be much of an issue. Seeing fascists and bigots getting whacked in the mod log doesn’t bother me much at all.
There’s nothing stopping them from setting up their own instances (like Gab did with Mastodon), but they will be ostracized from the fediverse.
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Just ban politics here.
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Fascism is a political ideology.
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Nacism is a left wing ideology like communism. They have the same dad - socialism. I don’t see anyone complaining about communists here. Why ban one and not another?
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You know what NSDAP stands for? National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Socialist!
Communism is just more advanced version of socialism, that is all.
And the democratic party was the party of antidemocray in the US south, wasn’t it?
So that is why the nazis shot the communist, and the commies were their wurst enemies.
And here I was thinking that if socialist are really are communists and nazis were socialist and thus communists they would have worked together in their country. United by their identical way of thinking. As is always the case when political parties are identical.
You know the name was chosen specifically to make people vote the NSDAP, right?
What about opening any History book and see how little socialist NSDAP was? Shall we leave nazis define themselves or are we open to assess what they were critically?
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Me. See, Voat ended up like it did because of the blatant bias of banning. I hope Lemmy would get all kinds of people here to stay, not just one political leaning or subset. The federation sure looks like a good solution for this, since one can simply ban a whole instance they don’t like and be done. As long as we all have an interest in Lemmy it should’t become an echo chamber.
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Facists are people too!
Just bad people.
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Is the ‘federated’ nature of Lemmy specifically setup to allow a “Lemmy/The_Donald”? If you don’t want to see it, just remove that federation?
Blocklists already work in our federation testing instances.
I’m genuinely curious, looking to move from Reddit due to heavy-handed mod abuse and the extreme leftist bias of virtually all the big subreddits. Is Lemmy going to be a place where free speech is honored, or will conservatives always get the boot like on Reddit? I’m not talking about hate speech or calls for violence, I’m just as against that as the next person. But I’d like to know I’m not going to get banned because my opinion differed from that of a mod.
The whole point of federation is that instead of joining a single centralized service, you’re joining the federation by joining a specific instance or creating your own instance. If you feel moderators on a certain instance are being heavy-handed you have the option to use a different instance which can still communicate with that other instance.
As the network topology is completely different on a federated platform, moderation actually happens in two layers; instance-to-user and instance-to-instance. Instances each have their own codes of conduct, which users on that specific instance are expected to respect. On top of that, instances also have the ability to block (defederate) with other instances if it is seen as necessary for the protection of the users of that instance.
You may be interested in how this works in practice on Mastodon. Mastodon.social, the flagship instance, has a code of conduct and a list of blocked instances along with - importantly - the reason they are blocked. As you will notice, not one of those instances is blocked for “different opinions” but rather for harassment and illegal content.
Further reading https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/12/20691957/mastodon-decentralized-social-network-gab-migration-fediverse-app-blocking
If it stinks of shit everywhere you go then maybe it’s time to look under your shoe? 🤔
While there’s value in conservative thought most people who subscribe to it don’t know how to exercise it.
I think the important point to stress about how federated software works is that you can always host your own, or find an instance hosted by someone whose views you jive with, even if the flagship instance has moderation you don’t like. This is explicitly planned for, in fact–Lemmy has features surrounding convenient NSFW flags on content at the same time that porn is totally banned on the flagship instance (this one). That’s because it’s meant for people to host their own instances where they can moderate how they like. Tradcath Lemmy? Sure! No-English-allowed Lemmy? Si quieres, sí se puede.
The problem is that a lot of people actively engaging in hate speech and harassment, or actively supporting it, regularly blur the lines between ‘free speech’ and hate speech, and have a distorted worldview where they represent themselves as a persecuted minority, when really they are just flagrantly violating rules and need to be banned immediately.
So I think it is very necessary, and very needed to have a healthy skepticism of people who claim to just be interested in free speech, because to those who have been following the modern evolution of trolling and harassment, those concepts have been utilized as a weapon by trolls who want to engage in hate speech and harassment.
You aren’t talking about hate speech or calls for violence, so I would think you ought to be fine. But trolls who engage in coordinated harassment and try to call THAT behavior “free speech” are the #1 problem to watch out for.
Well the first thing preventing it is that they already implemented their contingency plan months ago and the subreddit has had submissions restricted for three months already while people were shuffled off to their new dedicated site, so the ban was a purely symbolic gesture on Reddit’s part anyways.
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From my comment that was posted clearly for you to see before you kindly informed me of what I know and don’t know:
The main thing preventing that is capturing of initial user base.
The next part is finding a person who has some understanding psychology and know what a healthy community looks like to moderate.
Something like a code of conduct is typically the correct way of doing things. Neither is strong moderation abilities, since almost all moderators are influenced by other users and their own opinions.
A code of conduct!
More seriously I think Mastodon’s general rejection of Gab taught us that federated software can have an immune system in the form of instance admins/mods blocking federation.
Yes but caveat: code of conduct is not enough. [note] The point is the community (adminx being part of that) is ready to prompt rejections of harmful content. This can only be done with awareness, education, communication, etc..
[note] In principle, it may even be irrelevant for lil’ instances where everybody knows each other… but it helps.
agreed, though I think it’s good to emphasize that individuals who don’t align with an instance’s content boundaries can go find another instance.
Strong moderation abilities, and instance admins like ourselves who actually ban white supremacist communities and not sit on their hands about hosting the largest one on the internet, for years.
edit: like just today, we had a few TERF communities try to set up here. It took us less than a day to ban them. Its not difficult.
That should probably be in the README/FAQ.
From what I could gather in the recent Reddit thread, Lemmy becoming yet another Reddit clone that turns into a Nazi bastion is a common concern driving people away from giving the platform a chance.
How does this work with upcoming federation features and de-centralised nature of the lemmy platform?
A community is still ultimately controlled by the instance where it lives, along with those admins and mods.
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related: isolated gab
A few weeks ago you could find Gab (neo-nazi/white supremacist leaning instance) at the top of this list about most of the instances in the fediverse. Gab was a huge instance: ~1mln accounts, i.e. ~2x the number of accounts of Mastodon flagship instance. (numbers were inflated btw)
Why did Gab leave the fediverse? Because the rest of the fediverse campaigned to de-federate a neo-nazi/white supremacist instance. At the end of its story in the fediverse, Gab had an estimated insularity of 99.3% (source): that means 7 messages out of 1000 were directed outside that instance. The estimation is an upper limit, including outwards messages that actually cannot reach other instances (since these instances suspended Gab).
Now, according to the source above, Gab devs are discussing to drop the support for the fediverse. In the meantime, it is an insular instance.
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The reality is that they can already do that with plenty of existing services. Lemmy isn’t providing a new an unique opportunity for nazis to communicate that wasn’t available to them previously.
That said, the moderation and federation rules do appear to work in practice as seen with Mastodon where similar concerns have been raised. The one nazi instance is its own bubble, and nobody federates with it.
I think this is the perfect response, and part of my optimism about lemmy. I hope that this view of moderating is hard-coded (so to speak) into the DNA of lemmy, and I think it’s just as important to have a strong ethos like this as it is to have a well-designed link-aggregating tool.
That’s good to hear, I’ve got very little idea of how the fediverse works nor how moderation works on these types of sites so thanks for clarifying. I had a look to see if c/the_donald existed and although it seems to, I could see the following:
Does that mean the community has been removed by a mod then or something else?
That’s exactly what it means.
So with the way Lemmy currently works, could someone create a community, write some hate speech in the community description and that description stays up forever?
E: Apologies if it would have been more appropriate to ask this question in c/lemmy_support
I’m just gonna guess here, but I’m pretty sure there are manual steps an instance admin can take to nerf that stuff in the database
Additionally, there is a plan to implement a purge feature for particularly egregious posts, but as long as these communities are not allowed to spread their roots here, there shouldn’t be much of an issue. Seeing fascists and bigots getting whacked in the mod log doesn’t bother me much at all.
There’s nothing stopping them from setting up their own instances (like Gab did with Mastodon), but they will be ostracized from the fediverse.