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It’s obviously not indicative of the population as a whole, but the Finnish subreddit is inundated with people calling to join NATO immediately. A lot of people saying they’ve changed their minds. The opposition is by far the lowest it has ever been (gallup before today’s news, still mostly opposed to joining) and no doubt a lot of the politicians are thinking the same things, even if only a few are saying it out loud.
Finland doesn’t have a majority of ethnic Russians though. It wouldn’t make as much sense to make it part of Russia. Russia’s actions in the Ukraine are (in a way) democratic.
there would be no sense in russia going for finland. they already took karelia and the entire population essentially packed up and walked into finland overnight. going for finland? no one’s packing up as they got no place to go, and the rest of scandinavia will be pulled into it as a consequence. it’s asking for an outright war. a war russia have failed to win repeatedly.
In what way?
In the way that the people of Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk want to be independent from Ukraine.
Even if this is true, it does seem to me like any democratic process was skipped entirely.
How so?
Didn’t Soviet Union dissolve and get replaced by possibly the worst imaginable version of hard capitalism?
Basically. It’s a kleptocracy, with systemic theft from the masses going to oligarchs with Putin at the top of the heap. Also dangerous is its political structure. In a well functioning liberal democracy, power is diffused with well defined rules around transfer of power. Putin has for decades been operating without someone else there if he dies or retires. It’s why he’s built up a macho image. Putin must be healthy, or there will be political chaos with no obvious successor. In a system with more diffuse political power, the government barely blinks. Case in point: President Kennedy being assassinated had an incredibly minimal effect in terms of some sort of power struggle.
What I’ve been wondering is why are (some) leftists defending Putin?
At least from my point of view there are two conflicting ideas at work. On the one hand there is Russia’s authoritarian system with all it’s problems that definitely should not spread and lots of leftists rightfully condemn.
On the other hand Russia still has considerable military power and just as the US absolutely did not want nuclear missiles stationed in Cuba (even though Cuba is an independent nation and the US should have absolutely no say in this, at least to their own logic regarding Ukraine) Russia does not want such missiles stationed in Ukraine. The US now claiming Russia should have no influence on whether the Ukraine can join the EU/NATO in the future is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. This is one of the reasons for the strong anti-Americanism.
From this perspective it becomes very clear that expanding the NATO into the east has always meant playing with fire. I absolutely do not want another Cuba-crisis and consider expanding the NATO an unnecessary provocation of the Russians.
Prior to 2013/14 when the Ukraine remained neutral the situation was much more stable and Russia had no reason nor intention to interfere in Ukraine. If the result of Ukraine getting closer to the US/EU/NATO is war, then I do not want it.
I think the fact that this forum is rather small makes it easy for a couple of Russian agents to make it seem like they can speak for leftists here. They seek only to discredit the left and allow anti-democratic corporatocracy to reign.
Generally speaking, the smaller the forum, the less value it has to discredit or use. If it’s small enough to be easy, it’s small enough to not matter.
My bet is on “it’s more important to be anti-American than to be pro-left”.
I feel the same way. But I wish the arguments brought up by these “anti-american first” people were more balanced. And balanced does not mean less anti-american, but just to also keep a critical view on Russia.
An comparison could be with capitalist companies : I deeply hate Facebook. But if it was contested by a new capitalist tech giant on its own market, I would never mindlessly support this new adversary just because I’m anti-Facebook.
Just as I think anticapitalism should critizise any capitalist power, any country as powerful as the US or Russia should also be criticized for this kind of action.
This really has war propaganda vibes. Either you are with us, or against us.
This really has war propaganda vibes. Either you are with us, or against us.
Could it be any other way? Groups/movements/ideologies that aren’t like this have lower survival odds. Thus evolution weeds them out. Self-awareness being the most limited resource in the universe, those same people are quite certain they’re in the right about it, too…
I think I see what you mean and mostly agree. I just have to add a little optimism by pointing out that sels-awareness is not a “ressource”, as having it does not limit the supply for others. It is a characteristic. Keeping the evolutionist mindset, I would then argue that the spreading or disappearing of a characteristic depend on the environment. So we should collectively socially promote characteristics we want to see grow ! Let’s celebrate radicality, self-awarenes, curiosity, etc. !
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Of note, this line:
Putin used his speech not only to announce recognition of the separatist republics but to make a broader argument that Ukraine is not truly a separate country from Russia, that the West is responsible for this standoff, and that Ukraine will bear responsibility for any “future bloodletting.”
For people who have dismissed accusations that Russia building an excuse for war, is this not at least ominous? This is the final sentence from the Kremlin’s transcript:
That raises another question: why was it necessary to make such generous gifts, beyond the wildest dreams of the most zealous nationalists and, on top of all that, give the republics the right to secede from the unified state without any conditions?
Reading over his speech, it’s hard to see him as viewing Ukraine with its own will. Instead, it is merely a breakaway nation that should be subject to Russia’s will.
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Ah yes. The brilliant Russo-Chinese geopolitical strategy. Fund propagandists to spread their agenda on Lemmy of all fucking places.
When they can’t prove you wrong on an issue, or even imagine how anyone could disagree with them, they resort to calling you a Russian bot, just like the Democrats do to everyone who disagrees with them. Apparently most of the world is Russian bots 😂
You should be careful throwing around the word “idiot” with that line of argument 😉deleted by creator
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Russia has now started a full invasion, just like the US had warned.
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It’s not a joint strategy, necessarily. Chinese, I suspect, are simply paid in social credits for displays of fervent nationalism. But it’s certainly cheap enough to pay a room of shills to repeat your talking points of the day. Even on remote outposts like lemmy. For a country with a weak economy and military like Russia, information war is the best bang for the buck.
Imagine being a grown ass adult and believing all that. 😂
“social credits” Racist dehumanizing USA propaganda.
Seasame Credits. What else do you call them, race baiter?
Going for insults now, NATO bootlicker?
I think you’re just too dim to understand. You brought race randomly into this. Now you cast NATO as some power to be feared. It’s a defensive pack. Russia casts it as a boogeyman to justify invading it’s neighbors. That would make you a Russian bootlicker.
It’s simpler than that. They’re paid nothing. It’s of their own accord. It’s kind of sad.
a self referential comment if I ever saw one
Fancy seeing you here
So, according to you, people of Donetsk and Luhansk don’t have the right to self determination. Interesting position to take given that this is precisely what Minsk protocol states, which Ukraine is a signatory to.
No one has a right to secede illegally in a representative democracy. You don’t just go out and declare, with the full support of a invading force occupying another part of your country, independence.
Go read the Minsk agreement that Ukraine is signatory to. The west overthrew the legitimate government in Ukraine that was democratically elected, and installed a fascist puppet regime. The fascists the west supports have been doing ethnic cleansing in eastern parts of Ukraine.
ethnic cleansing in eastern parts of Ukraine
They did what?
systematically murder ethnic Russian people in the region
When? Got any links with more detail?
Does this apply if the central government was just couped?
I think Russia needs to butt out of this. No more incursions into Ukraine, no more propaganda about an impending genocide. So far what they have done looks alarming like Nazi Germany’s playbook for the Rhineland. Claim that the ethnic Germans/Russians in a region of another country were under threat, support a separatist movement, then annex that land. And any time you start looking like Nazi Germany in a substantive way, it’s time to start taking a long, hard look at your actions.
It’s not propaganda. Ukraine has been committing war crimes in Donbas for years by attacking water supply and other civilian targets. Meanwhile, comparing Russia today to Nazi Germany is the height of idiocy. Sounds like you’ve been brainwashed by propaganda beyond all hope.
When Russia’s using the same playbook… well, the glove fits. I don’t make comparisons to Nazis lightly.
All this is war. Not good, and both sides should be more careful, but it’s not genocide.
Given that the west installed literal fascists in power in Ukraine you might want to take a seat there bud.
I know of some of the shady people that were supported by the West and the Ukraine.
Could you shed some more light on the war crimes that Putin refers to? Also could you share the evidence that exists?
attacking civilian targets such as water supply is a war crime
Hmm, Russia Today is reporting about celebrations in Donetsk and Lugansk because of this decision: https://www.rt.com/russia/550172-donetsk-lugansk-recognition-celebrations/ meanwhile western media and leaders as well as other parts of Ukraine are condemning this move.
From what I understand Putins’ decision is not too surprising. Ukraine has cut off the separatist controlled regions. This means for example it does not provide any pensions and apparently it’d be pretty hard to even get into other parts of Ukraine from these areas even if you wanted to. That’s why Russia recently started handing out passports. The percentage of ethnic Russians in this regions is pretty high, so a lot of Russian citizens live there now. With growing tensions and more and more armed conflicts this put Putin into a bad spot. After his previous decisions he hardly had a choice but to protect his citizens. So the first thing they tried was to evacuate them. But only few people actually left for Russia. Thus the current decision.
This is not meant to apologize for any transgressions but merely to state that this was somewhat predictable and I can understand why Putin would act like this.
Something that is being brought up even more frequently now is a full scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia. I do not see the point in that. What’s in it for Russia? I think Putin would be much happier with Ukraine as neutral buffer to other NATO members like Poland. Does the Ukraine have any natural resources? War is very expensive and Russia spends relatively little money on its military.
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Russia’s economy isn’t doing poorly, but you might think that when you guzzle propaganda all day. Russia also gains absolutely nothing by invading Ukraine.
Is it ever true that an “invader gains nothing”? Or are you just (strangely) saying that there is more to lose than to gain?
Everyone on reddit is ranting about how it will be another Afghanistan… but what if it were merely another Chechnya? If Putin believes it to be that, he might well decide to invade/annex.
Ukraine will have strong western support so it won’t be as easy as Chechnya. Although Putin might decide to annex anyway.
“Strong” support? What’s that mean? Sure, the bullies are beating up the nerd, but the nerd will win because you intend to cheer him on from the sidelines?
Should have kept their nukes. Now they’re fucked.
Chechnya
Is Chechnya a comparison you want to make? Russia fought two wars over it before successfully subduing them. To this day, there are still suspicions that there were false flag attacks where Russia killed its own citizens to bolster support for the war and bring Putin into the presidency.
Russia fought two wars over it before successfully subduing them.
Which, if there was some magical factor in the universe that made them always win the second war, we could expect them to lose the first, right? Except there is no such magical factor.
The first loss is explainable and quite irrelevant.
To this day, there are still suspicions that there were false flag attacks where Russia killed its own citizens to bolster support for the war
So? Even if true, that doesn’t alter my point at all.
The point is (for those who need pictures drawn in crayon for them) Russia has reasons to expect that it might prevail in such a war, in a permanent way, with what their culture and regime considers to be acceptable losses.
The pretense for that war, the ethics of it, its justifiability, these things are all besides the point.
You’re an American, so why don’t you tell me what you gained from the quagmire in Afghanistan?
People of Donetsks and Luhansk are ethnically Russian and they want independence. Weird how westerners only care about people’s right to self determination when it suits them. The leaders of these republics explicitly asked Russia for help after Ukraine failed to abide by Minsk agreements that require Ukraine to give Donbas autonomy.
Stop trying to invent reality.
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You realize that two minutes of googling would save you from outing yourself as an ignoramus?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1235291/legal-entity-revenue-by-industry-in-russia/
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Using Exports as the sole measure of the robustness of the economy really tells me that you don’t know much about economics.
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Russia’s economy never recovered from being slapped with sanctions following the theft of Crimea. You can see that both in a dip in their nominal GDP and in a dip in the Big Mac index. As that page explains, a lower index value implies that McDonald’s is pricing their burgers lower to match what local people can pay. The ruble fell against the dollar, so the price of a Big Mac relative to a US dollar fell.
That’s utter nonsense as the article I linked above very clearly shows. If anything, the sanctions forced Russia to start developing its domestic industry making its economy far more robust than it was previously. Russia now also has an open alliance with China meaning that anything Russia can’t produce domestically can be sourced from China. Meanwhile, BRI is creating a huge economic bloc in Eurasia that Russia is an active member of.
I’m also not sure whom you’re claiming Crimea was stolen from given that people of Crimea are ethnically Russian and have overwhelmingly voted in favor of joining Russia after the 2014 coup. Once again, you don’t appear to care about people’s right for self determination in the slightest. It doesn’t matter to you what people who actually live in Crimea want, all you care about NATO’s geopolitical goals. Really telling on yourself there bud.
That’s utter nonsense as the article I linked above very clearly shows.
The article shows Russia’s currency sliding in value. It dipped sharply following the annexation of Crimea, began a recovery, and then dipped sharply with the pandemic. So yes, the sanctions absolutely hurt their economy.
If anything, the sanctions forced Russia to start developing its domestic industry making its economy far more robust than it was previously.
This is true, the sanctions did have that effect, at least regarding making it resilient to sanctions. This is an effect we’ve seen in other economies under a heavy sanctions regime (Cuba, Iran) where they’ve developed a more internally resilient economy at the cost of overall efficiency. All that said, there are plenty of levers that the West has left to pull. If Russian oligarchs start having their London real estate confiscated, you can bet words will be had with President Putin.
The article shows Russia’s currency sliding in value. It dipped sharply following the annexation of Crimea, began a recovery, and then dipped sharply with the pandemic. So yes, the sanctions absolutely hurt their economy.
Wait till you find out what happened to the rest of the economies in the world after the pandemic. Sanctions created a temporary inconvenience for Russia, but the long term effect is clearly positive since re-industrialization and self reliance will serve Russia much better going forward.
l that said, there are plenty of levers that the West has left to pull. If Russian oligarchs start having their London real estate confiscated, you can bet words will be had with President Putin.
You’re once again showing your lack of understanding of the subject you’re discussing. London confiscating the wealth of Russian oligarchs directly helps Putin since it forces the oligarchs to keep wealth in Russia where it’s subject to Russian laws. What the west would be doing is helping Russia ensure that the wealth isn’t being siphoned out.
Ukraine was a neutral buffer before Russia invaded. Seeing Russia dishonor Ukraine’s sovereignty will push what’s left of Ukraine into NATO. So Russia has basically forced NATO encroachment even closer than it was before. And that’s not even counting Finland.
Calling Ukraine neutral after the Western-backed coup of 2014, in which the US candidate became PM and Russian-hating Neonazis got into government is some twisting of facts. The whole Maidan (which was supported massively by Western governments, press and NGOs) was about aligning with the West for fuck’s sake! The invasion only happened after that.
They’ll surely love Russia after getting invaded a second time. If alignment or invasion are their choices, Russia is really pushing them into NATO.
I’m not disagreeing there. Care to revise your statement that Ukraine was neutral prior to the invasion or are you just going to ignore that?
Neutral in what regard? Russia violated their sovereignty in annexing parts of their territory and in supporting militarily separatist movements. They’ve been forced into opposition by Russia’s aggression.
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Propaganda isn’t black and white. I forget where I read it originally, but the most discussion happens on the edge of what’s allowed by the rules - so threads like these will always be full of pros/cons for the network health as a whole.
The machine guns are roaring
The puppets heave rocks
The fiends nail time bombs
To the hands of the clocks
Call me any name you like
I will never deny it
Farewell Angelina
The sky is erupting
I must go where it’s quiet
. . . Bob Dylan 1965Fake news. Russian military support was requested by Donbass republics. This comes shortly after Russia recognizes Donbass people’s republics as sovereign nations. So this is essentially the same as Russian military presence in Syria (also on invitation of the legal government).
As for the Minsk Agreements, they have been broken by Ukraine long ago, and Russia doesnt have any obligations in them. You can read the full text here.
That assumes that those are legitimate governments. Does every scrap of land that gets its population riled up by a neighboring country with ethnic ties get to succeed?
It’s strange that you keep questioning the legitimacy of those governments given that they’re supported by the people of Donbas and are recognized by Minsk agreements which I assume you have not bothered actually reading.
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The only thing comical here is how utterly brainwashed westerners are.
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Bruh, US overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine, funded and trained literal fascists there, and is now trying to start WW3, but yeah BoTh SiDeS aRe BaD.
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The Minsk protocols were violated by both sides before the ink dried. The agreement has been reduced to a joke and asking Ukraine to hold to them while its territorial integrity is violated is a matter of selective enforcement.
That’s utter and complete nonsense. In fact, Germany and France are insisting that Ukraine starts implementing Minsk agreement at this very moment.
And I’m sure they would be thrilled if they could do so. Germany especially would find it difficult to impose any sanctions with real teeth due to its dependency on Russian natural gas.
Ah yes, the only country here with pure and humanitarian motivations is the US.
Donetsk and Lugansk have been de facto independent for 8 years now, since the US-sponsored, fascist coup in Kiev and subsequent genocide against ethnic Russians in Ukraine. And whether you like it or not, the republics are now officially recognized by Russia, and will probably be recognized soon by other countries like China. Western politicians will whine and implement their sanctions, but no one will care.
The “coup” where over a hundred protestors were killed by the government? That’s not a coup, that’s mass protests.
I’m guessing you’ve never heard of color revolutions
Of course I have, but just because things didn’t go your way doesn’t mean it’s a coup.
You have to be wilfuly ignorant to not know that this was a coup.
The idea that the NATO boogieman is behind popular protests is a common Russian propaganda talking point. NATO is just not sophisticated enough to engineer a mass uprising like the Maidan Revolution. If they had, don’t you think their newly minted puppet government would have “invited” them in already, just like Russia did in Donbas?
The fact that it was a coup is very well documented. Only fascists deny this.
Ah yes, the classic. Calling someone who disagrees with you a fascist.
When it quacks like a duck and supports a fascist government in Ukraine…
Are you talking about the US funding that specific excluded groups a list of groups with fascist ties?
Donetsk and Lugansk have been de facto independent for 8 years now
A fact that was not recognized by Russia until a few hours before sending in its troops.
They did not recognize that it was de facto independent? Sure they did. Everyone did. Whether you acknowledge them as de jure independent republics by right is a different question that Russia just answered today.
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How? NATO has claimed Russian troops are in LPR and DPR since 2014. Now they are saying Russian troops are in LPR and DPR. What changed?
Edit: Even the US isn’t calling it an invasion. You’re calling everyone propagandists, but If you’re more extreme on this than the Biden administration… that really says something. Especially since that time they warned us about a “false flag attack” in Ukraine, but when pressed for evidence, they said they wouldn’t share anything.
That is when they invaded. Obama tried sanctions to dissuade Russia then. Biden will try some more. That runs counter to the Russian anti-NATO narrative. But the US is playing “peace in our time”, and we all know how appeasement ends.
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