Insulting or attacking other users, even so much saying “fuck you”, “fuck [this group of people]”, “you’re an idiot” or anything like that while debating IS against the rules of Lemmy.ml. This goes for every political view, you DO NOT get free passes no matter if you’re leftist, rightist, communist, anarchist, liberal, etc. If you’re confident of your position you should be able to debate in a civil manner without cursing someone else out. I understand that debates can get heated and frustrating, hell I’ve debated with a good bunch of users, but you can still express that without resorting to name calling or insults.

Check the modlog, we HAVE removed replies of this nature from every political view, and even if we don’t say it every time, we DO keep track of both removals per user and general behaviour even if it doesn’t get removed, and too many infractions WILL result in a ban.

That said, it is NOT against the rules to present countering facts or opinions, or to have political opinions in general. Don’t report comments for “being pro communist” or “being pro China” unless they have broken an actual rule, namely the ones about being civil. Don’t attack or insult people from Lemmygrad just because they’re from Lemmygrad or they’re arguing for Marxism-Leninism or supporting a country you don’t. If they’re presenting their points in a civil manner (which had been the case for almost everyone from Lemmygrad), you can either read it and respond in kind with your questions or counterpoints, or just move on. People coming over from other instances is not brigading if they’re mostly being civil, that’s the whole point of federation.

Things people disagree with getting down voted is also acceptable, it’s not considered an attack on you if your comment has a negative score, and it doesn’t even significantly affect the ranking because of the relatively low comment volumes currently on Lemmy. It’s just imaginary internet points, relax.

Dessalines
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Stand behind this post 100%.

It’s completely okay to have political disagreements here, but please be respectful when doing so. We want to make this site an enjoyable experience, and its extremely alienating for others to see people rudely insulting each other. People aren’t going to want to interact with you online or IRL if you do your best to offend everyone you interact with.

Also about downvotes: we’re aware that not just downvotes, but also upvotes can be psychologically harmful for many. If that’s the case for you, there’s a setting where you can hide vote scores, yet still be able to vote on things and get all the benefits of sorting by popularity. I think its still a good idea to be transparent and show them by default tho.

Lenins2ndCat
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Also about downvotes: we’re aware that not just downvotes, but also upvotes can be psychologically harmful for many.

Seems like you guys are going through the same process of struggle with vote impact on people psychologically that Hexbear went through. Interesting to see different approaches to solving it.

@PP44
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Thanks you for your hard work. I do understand mod work is difficult, and should not be taken from granted. Biases are inevitable, or even sometimes useful. So take my comment for what it is, just how I feel as a user of this fantastic software and instance.

I feel like this post happens because bad behaviours happened a lot lately. And if I had to be honest, the aggressiveness often came from politically close people, meaning people defending PRC or USSR for example. I do understand my own biases as a leftist that think it is important to be way more critic than they are about “those communist countries” even if I agree western propaganda did and still does a lot against them. But I have to admit the action aggressiveness was delivered as if they assumed that moderation and administration were “on their side” and confident they would not get punished. And I have to admit it felt like they assumed right. I do feel like there is a tolerance that goes beyond accepting their political stance, but also allow some clearly unacceptable behavior.

I felt for a long time that Lemmy was a cool space to discuss things among a diversity of leftists that disagree but try to understand each other. It felt like somewhere you could try to change your mind about a multitude of complex political ideas. But recently it feels like people are just throwing what the truth is to them at each other. Many discussions feel useless and violent.

❤️ Cheer to all lemmings that try to keep this a cool discussion space ❤️, sorry for not talking that often.

Liwott
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Tbh, this post illustrate pretty well the double standard it tries to denounce.

  • six comments of a user get deleted over the course of two days because they gratuitously insulted the user they were replying to. They do not get any form of ban.
  • a user phrases their (valid) point in a way that is too strong to the point of being insulting to an admin. They get a 3 day ban.

Also, it is pretty clear that the situation with users insulting each other is not as symmetrical as the post makes it up to be. When is the last time someone with no account on Lemmygrad had a comment removed for that reason?

Dessalines
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Please report the uncivil comments, and we’ll continue to remove them.

w/ respect to that 3-day temp-ban, you can check the modlog, its completely transparent, which is really helpful in this case in particular. The person claimed :

“its clear the admins of lemmy are manufacturing communist mobs”, and linked to a post where @AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml supported people debunking anti-communist / mccarthyite propaganda. This is supposedly “evidence of manufacturing mobs.”

Obviously someone who attacks the entire mod team with no evidence would be better suited to a specifically anti-communist site like wolfballs or reddit.

Ninmi
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The claim for “mob manufacturing” seemed baseless, but the ban itself demonstrates said bias when a person with a barrage of hateful comments continues to get nothing. This isn’t the first time I’ve felt ban bias in lemmy.ml, but is definitely the most flagrant example of it.

Liwott
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I agree that them saying “manufacturing mobs” was going way too far, and of course it required at least comment deletion. @graphito seems to have understood and accepted the reasons for the first comment deletion, as they later reframed the comment without the insulting part. I think this was actually the best response to the first deletion, and I do not understand why the second comment was deleted as well.

The first accusation of “manufacturing mobs” may have justified a temp ban, but that said ban happened after publication of the corrected comment is what looks most puzzling to me. Is it possible that the second comment was read too fast and misinterpreted as spamming the former insulting comment ? (thought the modlog does not mention spamming or evading moderation)

What I call illustrating a double standard in this case, is that they got a ban after one insult, that seem more like misphrasing a genuine complaint; when @Catradora_Stalinism gets away with repeated comment deletion for unneeded insults.

I am generally quite happy with lemmy.ml administration in general, and I could never thank all the admins enough for that. But I do not agree with every one of your decisionq, and in the context of this post it is important to state it.

Liwott
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Obviously someone who attacks the entire mod team with no evidence would be better suited to a specifically anti-communist site like wolfballs or reddit.

Maybe also worth to note that they were not attacking the mods team without evidence, but beyond evidence. They did show evidence for admins supporting clashers coming from lemmygrad, but went way too far in labeling that behaviour “mob manufacturing”. There was nothing specifically anti-communist in their criticism of lemmy.ml 's administration

Cold Hotman
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This is similar to my conclusions after seeing what’s been going on the last few days.

@Stoned_Ape
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Sadly, we all are just human beings. I really hope that something emerges that tries to actually make things better for everyone, instead of creating even more division.

@graphito
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we DO keep track of both removals per user and general behaviour even if it doesn’t get removed, and too many infractions WILL result in a ban.

Ok let’s talk specifics here, Catraism-Stalinism appeared on modlog 6 times on the span of 2 days. Been complained about dozens of times. At what point he is going to receive his at least temporary ban?

I think this case makes a good precedent that everyone can break the rules dozens of times. So why would anyone bother keeping the rules if you can break them and go unpunished?

Catraism-Stalinism
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I had a bit of a mood, it won’t be repeated. I’m usually much better, and far less name-throwy. The past few days have gotten away from everyone. We can see that from the like to comments ratio on almost every political post in the past few days.

I have also been personally warned by the mods, so don’t think I will be doing much insulting in the future.

@graphito
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So how exactly does any of what you said excuse you from consequences of your actions?

Catraism-Stalinism
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I am on thin ice, very thin ice. But if you think a vacation will help, talk about it all you want. This seems personal at this point. You have gone through my profile and downvoted all recent comments, even though many were on lemmygrad, and then proceeded to follow me about and reply to me on lemmygrad! I have done no such thing to you, at least stop being creepy about it. You only wish to provoke some sort of reaction. What do you seriously think to accomplish?

@graphito@beehaw.org
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removed by mod

Most people from lemmygrad (and friends) will also insult you by calling you “imperialist” or “liberals”, even though you clearly state you are not. I am anticapitalist and anarchist and receive these too often on Lemmy.ml
When various people are doing it to you, in small comments, it is not officially an insult but it’s meant the same and it hurts the same. Plus some people are openly calling for this kind of brigading from lemmygrad users, and never receive a ban for it?

I’m grateful to the developers for providing Lemmy software, but you’re not addressing the problem here, and it’s hurting Lemmy as a serious alternative to Reddit.

@AgreeableLandscape
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We have very different definitions for what bigrading is. Simply coming over and providing counterpoints is not brigading if they’re not cursing other people out. The whole point of federation is to allow other instances to interact.

My only advice for being called “liberal” or “imperialist” is to not internalize them so much. Do you expect the admins to police every use of the term imperialist and liberal and remove any potentially inaccurate usage? I’ve been called plenty of things I’m definitely not for being a Marxist-Leninist, including a genocide and cultural cleansing supporter, also imperialist gets dropped on me too for whatever reason, but I honestly just don’t care and being called something I know I’m not is not going to shake my views.

I’m not sure what else to tell you other than to block Lemmygrad users or use an instance that doean’t federate with them.

comfy
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It really depends on how tightly or loosely we want civility to be enforced from above. Should we be removing all insults, or is that just too heavy-handed? That’s a big question, not one I have an answer to, but there are some communities that do say yes, using labels as an insult isn’t acceptable. I suspect lemmy.ml doesn’t want to be that strict, but somewhere like gtio.io that attempts serious discussion might see that boundary as constructive.

Simply coming over and providing counterpoints is not brigading

I’m definitely not talking about that. I’m talking about people stating one-liner comments with no counter points and calling you “imperialist” or “liberal”, and throwing it at you like you are a murderer or CIA (which is the same).
If you don’t see precisely what I’m talking about, too bad. Others will get that. And move to other instances like I did, sadly.

I have nothing personnal against you though.

Catraism-Stalinism
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really, being called a “lib” is bad too?

comfy
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It’s exactly like calling someone a commie. A dumb unconstructive slur. If you’re doing that on a site where liberals are expected to be rejected offensively, like lemmygrad or chapo or leftypol, then sure, but lemmy.ml isn’t one of those places.

It’s exactly like calling someone a commie. A dumb unconstructive slur.

About as dumb and “unconstructive” as these theatrics that you are engaging in, imo. That one gave me a real chuckle.

(Btw, I dunno who convinced you that commie is a slur, but you can call us that if you like. I can’t imagine a single communist who would be offended by that).

comfy
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Slurs don’t have to be successfully offensive to be slurs haha. I don’t care if someone calls me a commie pinko lefty, or anything worse for that matter. It’s about intent.

comfy
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‘Brigading’ is when someone gets a group of foreign users to mass-downvote or mass comment on a post. You can confirm this definition with a web search (“brigading forum”). What you’re describing is just low effort insulting (which of course is bad and not really acceptable on lemmy.ml in my opinion)

Stating you are not something doesn’t make you not it. What sort of argument is that?

They keep calling me a bully after I smack them in the face and steal their lunch money. Like, how many times do I have to tell them that I’m not a bully?!

As an argument, it really doesn’t say anything at all. Not sure why they used that as their defense. Instead of, ya know, concrete examples of being undeservedly called an imperialist. (Well I have a hunch that they don’t really have one).

Bro stop fronting. That person didn’t call you a liberal or imperialist. They were trying to tease out what exactly you meant by being civil.

@abbenm
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So fwiw, if you are looking for feedback here, I have ended up walking away from Lemmy (well, I maybe check the front page 1x every couple of months) in part because I think there’s a population of antagonistic users who effectively game the rules by being antagonistic up to the limits of what’s tolerated. My belief is that trolling reinvents itself every few years, and right now Lemmy is in a spot where it isn’t catching up how modern trolling works.

Catraism-Stalinism
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Trolling is when someone disagrees with your opinion, and when a bunch of people do it, thats called being an “ebil hivemind”

@Gaywallet@beehaw.org
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Come check out beehaw, we have a very similar mindset around what’s wrong with social media, and we’re trying out less explicit rules to allow for more human interpretation when people are acting like jerks. Our core mindset is simply being nice to each other, and being antagonistic is definitely not nice 😄

Catraism-Stalinism
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just ban me, these libs have chosen me as meal of the day. Just do it. They’re insufferable. I didn’t know I would cause a problem…

Liwott
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I didn’t know I would cause a problem…

Did you seriously think going around insulting people would not cause any problem?

these libs

Sure, one cannot disagree with your behaviour unless they are liberal. This is about liberals wanting to silence your ML points, not at all about the (ML) admins having repeatedly had to delete your hateful comments.

People call you out for your toxic behaviour, and you play the victim.

Catraism-Stalinism
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Did you seriously think going around insulting people would not cause any problem?

No, I’ve seen tones of insults slung around on lemmy.

People call you out for your toxic behaviour, and you play the victim.

what? Playing victim? I’m asking to be banned! Isn’t that what you want? Of course I’m going to be salty, this is the only way I talk to my friends. I’m just not disagreeing that I’ve become a point of contention, and I truly don’t want to be a bother. I don’t have some double motive, I’m very blunt, which is why I’m currently in trouble.

Liwott
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No, I’ve seen tones of insults slung around on lemmy.

Mind to share examples that were not modded out?

these libs have chosen me as meal of the day

How is this not playing the victim? You are pushing a narrative where there is a group of liberals that every once in a while tricks the admins into having a marxist banned, and today it happened to be you. Can you point to an example of that ever happening to someone else?

In this post where an admin invited readers to check the modlog and appreciate the good quality of moderation, people are mentioning you for seemingly benefitting from laxist moderation. Do you find that unfair?

@peeonyou
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the chosen one!

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deleted by creator

Lenins2ndCat
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deleted by creator

@Zerush
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Insults and disrespect in a discussion, only exposes the one who insults, showing his lack of arguments

I did not know about the modlog all this time. There is a comment removed with the reasons being “no call for assassinations”. But which rule is being applied here? Are we adding “no calls for violence” too?

Dessalines
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I doubt we’ll add a no calls for violence in the same way reddit does, but we might need to add a no calls for assassinations rule since it seems that’s not common sense for some people.

@AgreeableLandscape
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It falls under being civil.

@Stoned_Ape
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It’s just imaginary internet points, relax.

Honest question: Then why are we having these points? If they are of no actual use, and nobody should care about them, why are they implemented? For what reason?

Oatsteak
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To show whether you like/dislike and/or agree/disagree with something. Why are you confused?

@Stoned_Ape
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Read further, I explain it further down. I guess you voted down, despite not reading if you even agree or not. Did I guess correct? If yes, do you see that as a problem, or is that completely okay?

Ninmi
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The entire purpose for downvotes in Reddit was to allow people to weed out comments that do not add anything to the conversation, but people of course misused it as an “I disagree” button. All the downvotes contribute is further ruining the conversational culture here by turning them in to gladiator fights of egos. Lemmy is actually just worse than Reddit in this regard when its downvote feature doesn’t even have a stated purpose. Lack of downvotes alone is a good reason to support Beehaw.

@blkpws
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All the downvotes contribute is further ruining the conversational culture

Sometimes I get downvotes without knowing why and no one is replying me what’s wrong with my words. For example, the comment I just write here like you got more downvotes than up votes, does that mean they disagree with me or that I am not adding anything to the conversation? Because I said “I suppose”, so it’s just my opinion.

So those votes are used for a “disagree” or an “agree” here on Lemmy, right? (not talking about Reddit)

Ninmi
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Sometimes I get downvotes without knowing why and no one is replying me what’s wrong with my words.

Further ruining the conversation when you can simply press a button to devalue someone’s opinion without contributing anything yourself.

And yes, they’re used as agree/disagree buttons and it cheapens the conversation.

Dessalines
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Most big tech platforms have gotten rid of the downvote as well. They only want you to express liking, not disliking.

@blkpws
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Sometimes, a crowd of people on internet plays with downvotes, I suppose it’s a way to make “wars”. I wonder if it could be a good idea to replace the like/dislike with emoji icons… Smile, Happy, Thinking, Heart, Shit poop, etc… To give it more a meaning of reaction than a like/dislike.

Dessalines
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The votes are really more about helping sort popular / unpopular content more that anything, so emojis wouldn’t help with that.

Without scores or voting, its back to the days of forums where you have to scroll through hundreds of pages to find something decent.

Ninmi
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I should mention that I’m only against comment voting. It makes sense for the content itself, but in discourse it only leads to fights of wits.

@Stoned_Ape
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to find something decent.

What does decent mean? Something popular? Or something with quality content and comments?

Dessalines
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All three I suppose? Here’s an example from xdadevelopers of what dealing with old-school forums is like. A 17-page thread of people trying to discover the best practices / things to do for battery life. Without any scoring or voting, you have to read through hundreds of replies.

Some threads have thousands of comments, going through each of them to find what’s good might take days.

@Stoned_Ape
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So you think that popularity equals quality?

Dessalines
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For the most part. If you have a thread of 10k comments, would you rather read through each of them individually, or have them be sorted by collective preference?

@Stoned_Ape
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That’s not at all what I’m talking about. I argue that using votes as “likes”, instead of how the Reddiquette originally meant it, is a bad idea for the very reason you are stating. Sorting by popularity is not going to highlight the best solution or argument, but the most popular one.

Dessalines
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How do you dictate how people use preference buttons? They’re going to use them however they see fit, and that’s a good thing.

And how do you find good content without some sort of collective preference? Any site should be able to answer this question: you have a thread with 10k comments, what’s the best way to sort them so that users don’t have to read every comment?

@Stoned_Ape
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How do you dictate how people use preference buttons?

Why do you want to dictate it?

They’re going to use them however they see fit, and that’s a good thing.

If that’s a good thing is the very thing we argue about right now. I disagree that this is a good thing. Especially if you mean that everybody should any system however they like, instead of how it is supposed to be used. If everyone uses any system differently, be it a 5 star system, or upvotes/downvotes, the system is not going to show what people think it shows, but a mix of all interpretations mangled into a number.

If half of the people use “3 stars” for an average product, but the other half uses “5 stars” for an average product, the rating is off for both halfs. It’s the same with rating the delivery. If the rating system is meant for the product only, using it for other reasons distorts the result of that system.

I hope you can see what I mean.

And how do you find good content without some sort of collective preference?

As I said elsewhere in this thread: By having a metric that shows how well written and thought through an argument is. You don’t have to “like” what is written or said, but you can acknowledge the quality of the argument.

what’s the best way to sort them so that users don’t have to read every comment?

Depends on what your goal is: Do you want users to read what they LIKE to read? Then you go for likes/dislikes, so what people want to read most is always at the top, creating a filter bubble, also called an echo chamber.

If you want to encourage quality discussion, where arguments are higher rated than emotional replies, then you should not do that.

Dessalines
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By having a metric that shows how well written and thought through an argument is. You don’t have to “like” what is written or said, but you can acknowledge the quality of the argument.

How would you implement this? Because if its by user preference, then you’re back to step one, except you’re dictating how a user should use their preference button. And if its by something strange like comment length, AI’s reading comments, then all of those can be easily gamed

@Stoned_Ape
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I’m sorry, but I think you are avoiding to talk about the merits of such a system based on the fact that you can’t dictate how users use a system. Your solution is to simply stop caring about it, my solution would be to encourage the correct usage of the system and educate everyone about it.

You argue for a good system, while at the same time you argue that no system can be good, because you can’t dictate anyone, and there are bots.

So… why even talk about this, if there is no reason for you that any of this makes sense?

Dessalines
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How does one “enforce correct usage” of a like button? Why do you get to dictate how ppl use that button?

Lenins2ndCat
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You can’t really enforce it, but in smaller community sizes self-enforcement can occur through a community culture that’s self-reinforcing. This is typically done through repeated reminders and a constant back and forth between community management and the membership, often through a regular post of sorts.

There is a tipping point in size where that stops working too though but it’s somewhere in the 40k-100k users range.

@Stoned_Ape
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Alright, you don’t want to talk about it. So please do stop. You repeating already answered questions doesn’t do anyone any good.

@blkpws
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Still can be sorted by most reactions too.

Dessalines
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Then you’d have to assign numbers for the different reactions (otherwise how would you compare a heart to a poo emoji ) and we’re back to where we started.

@blkpws
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Poo and heart are both reactions, it can be sorted on first even if it’s a +30 poo reactions, so people can see those comments and contribute on those comment threads when someone said something “stupid” or “bad”. 3 poo + 6 hearts = 9 reactions. Comments with no reactions could mean, they don’t say anything interesting at all. And I expect people reacting more with hearts and faces than a poo. Still, poo can be ignored as a counter, you can make the rules. (But I would make all reactions, even poo icon, to count as reaction)

Dessalines
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So sorting by total reactions, regardless of if they’re negative or not? That sounds like a way to bring some disliked things to the top.

@blkpws
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So, if people want to do the same as the downvote right now, they will just need to not react and ignore the comment.

Dessalines
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But then you’ve just taken away a method for people to express their dislike of something.

Lenins2ndCat
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In my experience the only thing that removing downvotes changed in sorting was that it prevents users from suppressing the extremely shit posts. The sorting of the middle and high end of both comments and posts ends up almost identical.

The worst posts that would have received a tonne of downvotes are also almost always something that moderation would agree with removing entirely.

This tradeoff comes with the benefits of eliminating all the psychological issues that occur.

BUT, Lemmy can’t go down this road imo as it would no longer be a reddit clone if it didn’t have the downvote. My general opinion is that the downvote hurts conversation, creates circlejerks, hurts the way people see one another, and creates a mindset of writing a comment for the audience to “win” the interaction instead of writing a comment for the recipient. But the decisions about Lemmy should be about what’s best for Lemmy’s future as a tool though which is probably best to maintain the “reddit clone” selling point for the timebeing.

@blkpws
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Any comment with reaction, for dislike or for a like reaction, is a debate where a lot of people are giving an opinion (reaction icon), so can be still on the top (but with a lot of poo).

If it’s someone saying something stupid, he will see he got 0 reactions, no downvotes, so that can make him more alone/stupid and not looking for a voting war. Hoping this will unmotivated more the trolling people or voting wars.

I think people can still express their likes (reacting) and dislikes or indifference (not reacting) in a more healthy way.

If it’s someone saying something stupid, he will see he got 0 reactions, no downvotes, so that can make him more alone/stupid and not looking for a voting war. Hoping this will unmotivated more the trolling people or voting wars.

My experience of internet discourse is that people will absolutely react with negative emojis to things that they consider ‘stupid’. In some cases they are doing it to explicitly attempt to get a reaction out of the person who posted something, in other cases they simply want to point out that someone else is less than them, so that they can boost their own ego. I’m sure there are other use-cases, as humans are incredibly diverse.

@blkpws
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Yeah, I was thinking emojis were more kind, and I don’t even need a dislike button. I think it would be cool to use emoji reaction like with an X or with smile/laugh/xD/thinking and all those faces to quickly express my reaction. And dislike system could disappear…

I feel like facebook tried that. It’s straight garbage on any controversial topic, at least how they implement it.

@blkpws
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I don’t have experience on that, I don’t use any kind of social media (unless Lemmy and Mastodon), so I am probably pretty wrong if those systems neither work.

@blkpws
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Okay, now I understand what you mean and yeah. I know when I deserve bad votes, but sometimes I feel like they are just to devalue opinions on debates.

@Stoned_Ape
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I agree. I don’t like the aspect that votes are seen as “lol internet points” by the devs and admins of Lemmy. I don’t even understand why it was implemented if they see it like that. If the votes are of no meaning, then… why take the time and implement a system for something that should be without any use?

The original “Reddiquette” was really well written in regards to voting. It was humane and about quality discussion. But… the new owners of Reddit, whoever it is, don’t care for quality discussion. If you want to sell data, you want votes and comments to be emotional gut reactions. So they actually are A/B testing to replace votes with literal “likes” and “dislikes”.

I think the “up” and “down” arrows suggest something that doesn’t easily align with the original Reddiquette. The upvote is not really the opposite of the downvote. It has different meanings, and should be two different buttons that do not look like opposites. That would help users to understand the Reddiquette. Also, that the final number is a simple “upvote-downvote” calculation contributes further to that problematic user interface communication.

Ninmi
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100% agree. The original Reddit was a bit of a wild west, but Reddiquette itself is great as a founding document and as a basis for all conduct in all communities.

@blkpws
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I suppose it’s just to say you agree or disagree. So can’t do anything when a crowd from Lemmygard votes bad on all your comments if you don’t support their government or politic discussion.

Catraism-Stalinism
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their government or politic discussion.

So its bad when we disagree, but not when you libs do that.

@blkpws
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So its bad when we disagree, but not when you libs do that.

I don’t do that, I rarely vote down… I talk about a lot of stuff, politics, tech, but when I need to talk about Communism and this kind of ideology I always get a crowd of downvotes.

Catraism-Stalinism
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Communism and this kind of ideology I always get a crowd of downvotes.

could it be that you’re just wrong?

@blkpws
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Yeah, maybe I am wrong, and need your illumination.

Or maybe a crowd of Communist people (Lemmygrad users) are doing mass votes to this kind of topic.

@SineNomineAnonymous
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deleted by creator

@graphito
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removed by mod

@graphito
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removed by mod

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