Personally I think not having karma limits is nice currently! I understand why they were used but grinding karma as a lurker on reddit was frustrating.
Nazis.
This is the big one
Yeah, fuck Nazis!
No, that’s how they reproduce! Isolate them! Or at least use a condom.
Hah. It’s probably gonna be worse here.
They main instances have taken strong stances against nazi shit. The Lemmy developers are leftwing communists even, and they run lemmy.ml, so I don’t think defederating from servers who’ll platform nazis is unlikely.
I doubt that any instance I’d be interested in being a part of would federate with nazi communities. They’d end up more isolated than on Reddit.
This is why I love the idea of Federation. You can give them their own space to shout and fling their faeces as much as they want but absolutely nobody is required to give them an audience.
You mean you don’t want an algorithm hawking them into your face after your look up a recipe?
Therefore, with no algorithm, it prevents right-wing radicalization. Therefore, avoiding the “Anti-sjw-to-neo-nazi” pipeline.
Nah, they are going to their own rathole.
Yes, fuck them, by the root and stem.
My thought as well.
Yeah, but actual Nazis. Not “you disagreed with me or voted for someone I don’t like so I’m going to call you a Nazi.”
This user doth protest too much, methinks
The comment “This” is annoying to me. Just use the upvote button!
This.
This
Upvoted and this’d
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🤔
Yea that seems like something that started showing up more as time went on and more users joined. The trends and jokes did get tiring.
And my axe!
🙄
And a bottle of whiskey I found in the street.
The comment “this” comes from sites that don’t have votes. The equivalent here is voting. It really is that simple.
This. I usually try to avoid commenting just “This” and try to give more explanation why I’m saying that. Feel like that’s the proper way of doing it.
Personally I am commenting and posting much more now than ever on reddit. I want to transition to lemmy and see it grow as I refuse to use the Android reddit app.
I am not typing/imagining a comment and then not posting it here either like many people do on reddit. It seems like a good time to become less of a lurker.
Agreed, especially with how new Lemmy is, it just really feels like it needs our engagement to succeed and get more people to join.
I remember when I first got on reddit, it was still bigger than lemmy is now, but it still felt small enough that commenting actually felt worthwhile. Definitely excited to be here. Tryna engage as much as possible so people feel there’s a community to join
If I’m not mistaken, because lemmy by default sorts comments by newest, if you comment something more users will see it, but on reddit it’ll get stuck at the bottom.
Yeah. Honestly I’m way more active here. Granted my whole time on the fediverse is like a week or two, but Ive made more comments today than I have in like a decade on reddit. I could easily see myself not returning to reddit.
Add back the hardcoded slur filter but just for these kind of comments
This tbh
This is what I wanted to post in here. Any version of the like “this” “to the top with you” “have my upvote” etc etc
Like it’s a conversation board, I don’t care about one person’s personal opinion of a comment that actively takes away from the conversation and clutters the replies when there’s an entire feature around giving your opinion on a comment.
Agree. Kind of relatedly, anyone know what boost does versus an upvote?
Assuming they use Mastodon terminology it likely means the same thing as a retweet.
(For anyone confused, OP’s using kbin, not Lemmy)
Me too!
Can’t wait for the screenshot of a Reddit post of a Lemmy post of an Instagram post about Elon tweeting some shit.
Oh God please
god doesn’t do this kind of stuff, maybe ask someone else uwu
Don’t forget Tumblr! There’s gotta be a Tumblr comment thread with a bad pun in there too.
i want this :))
Reddit has a longstanding reputation for being a hive of scum and villainy (like hosting the_donald for years, or kotakuinaction, etc). I really hope that Lemmy keeps with the general left-leaning vibes of the fediverse overall, hopefully being a good space for queer people, women, people of colour, etc.
I think you do have to be careful here though. If you’re too permissive you allow bigotry, but if you’re too restrictive you cut off honest, good faith debate and create echo chamber silos where beliefs are never challenged.
Bigotry should never be accepted but that means non-discriminatory opinions, especially ones you disagree with, should be allowed.
Good faith is the key here. I’m all for disagreements leading to lengthy discussions and even some controversy as long as everyone is arguing in good faith.
I can’t stand trolling, outright bigotry, and the normalization of literal fascist opinions as a mere “disagreement”. If a “disagreement” (you know which ones I mean) will lead to people dying if enabled, I’m pretty happy keeping those ideas out.
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Hi! I’m trans. If you’re looking to change your mind about that I’m happy to chat! Otherwise I suggest you look to get out of here as soon as possible.
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That’s the beautiful thing about being a federated platform. You can create your own island and fill it with all the hatred and bad “science” you want. it’s worked for the British for centuries.
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I’ve never understood the need to militantly oppose others’ personal situations when they have no impact on your own. Even playing devil’s advocate - what is the point of the hate? You don’t believe in gender identity, then don’t personally be trans. The fact that others may be would seem to have literally zero impact on you or your life. Why should Lemmy accommodate negativity that does real harm to people in sensitive circumstances?
Who decides whats non-discriminatory.
Don’t know why people are downvoting you for this because that does actually matter. What is an opinion to some is discrimination to others (and this goes for any point on the political spectrum.)
I guess the answer to that question though will be formed by the culture of the instances over time (although many instances do have explicit leanings already.) If you’re finding yourself consistently flagged for discrimination or whatever in one instance you can probably find one that you are better suited to (or re-evaluate your beliefs.)
Nobody cares about non discriminatory different opinions.
/r/jailbait needed a spotlight in the national news from Anderson Cooper to get dealt with.
But (allowing for the fact that I’m still learning) by its nature I’m not sure the fediverse can stop these things in total, but the particular instances you subscribe to can. I’m unclear if INDIVIDUALS can ban instances (as far as I can tell they cannot) which I think might be a good addition. But instances can ban other instances, and eventually the fediverse will figure out which instances to put in the time-out corner for the rest of us, I think. But it will take time and might be a bit of wack-a-mole.
I think this is the big thing that Fediverse platforms are missing right now. If you want to be able to ban instances yourself, you have to run your own.
That would be nice but these platforms with “instances” look like it’s a Reddit on steroids. I don’t see how a community could be shut down with the way it’s setup currently. I’m a complete newbie though so don’t rely on my unprofessional observations.
Your instance can ban the offending instances, so they won’t show up for you or your fellow users, and vice versa. It provides a good way to exile the offending community.
Do you know how the report button works?
Does it send a report to the mods of your instance?
I honestly have no idea. I’m just running my own instance so I’ll just ban any users from my federation feed if I need to.
If you check the modlog page (link at the bottom of the desktop site), you can see what mods/admins have been doing recently (note that there is potentially offensive content there)
Communities can’t be shut down, but they can be shut out. This is also just true in life in general.
If The_Donald were to set up shop on Lemmy.ml, they could ban the instance and the members, but they could just turn around and join another instance.
So, what do you do then? Site admins can ban the remote instance, and they can put pressure on the hosting site admins by threatening to defederate.
Let’s say the new hosting site’s admin gives into defederation pressure and also bans the instance and its members. We’ll, then those people can set up their own server. Now, the admin won ban them.
But none of the major servers will federated with them. They’ll be alone on their low population fashy instance (or not so low population - Truth Social is suppsoey the biggest Mastodon instance), effectively quarantined.
That’s the best anyone can do. That’s true with or without Lemmy.
Lemmy instances can also use users’ connections to DDoS other instances that are severly problematic (e.g. like KiwiFarms).
While browsing peacefully, you can also do your part by sending a portion of your bandwidth to take down those instances.
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So you want censorship of opinions you disagree with? Sounds pretty fascist tbh.
When those views call for the dehuminization of others or are based on false information, yes.
Sure because those are the only ones that get censored lmao.
So you want censorship of opinions you disagree with?
Yes.
Best you just shut your screen off then, bye.
Consider opening up a window and letting CO2 out
being unable to post on certain social media platforms does not make you the victim of authoritarianism
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So you want censorship of opinions you disagree with?
Yes.
Posting pictures too much, including pictures of tweets or pictures of news headlines.
Please link to the fucking article.
Yes! Many sumbreddits that actually had a point and were dare-I-say educational quickly became just twitter sceencap platitudes, on repeat.
I get it, easy to read and agree with and upboat, but ultimately just dumbing the place down to the lowest common denominator and burying anything with effort or insight.
Getting banned in one subreddit you never participated in for daring to have a comment (regardless of the content of that comment) in another subreddit.
I see the same shit in the Fediverse though. Mastodon admins blocking a server just because they refused to participate in a shared block list.
Someone’s going to make a script to ban a non-local user based on your remote posts, I guarantee it.
Isn’t the federated model specifically designed as a solution to undesired moderation? If a server is ban happy, users won’t go there. Problem solved?
The fact that opening a new instance still requires some technical knowledge is a difficulty facing the fediverse, since the venn diagram of people with the time and know-how to manage server administration and people who are knowledgeable on community moderation aren’t always two concentric circles.
But that’s not a task that is asked of a general user, even if their goal is to switch servers. If you don’t like gmail, the solution for an individual is almost never to start your own email server.
Correct. What i’m saying is that since federated networks tend to be more community run initiatives, moderators are gonna be people from within the community and the final say on moderation issues is gonna come from those who understand how the fediverse works and have done the work of setting up the servers that everyone is using. Which I’m sure can and has worked for plenty of Mastodon and Lemmy instances out there, but I’m sure there’s also instances where the head admin simply went haywire one day and nuked everything. It’s not that the system can’ work, it’s just that it isn’t really designed to gravitate towards experienced trust and safety experts being the ones that important decisions fall upon.
I feel like I should clarify that I have nothing against any Lemmy mods or admins. They’re all being cool and helpful with onboarding reddit refugees like myself. I just think that this is an important thing to think about if we want this place to support more and more people and a growing number of communities in the future.
i’m not very sure if you mean that ppl with knowhow to set up a server are inherently already part of the system and therefore share certain opinions
if you did mean that, i wanted to clarify that setting up a lemmy instance, as far as i have seen, is something that almost any senior developer could do because it’s very easy, and i as a junior developer was almost successful in my first attempt and i’m sure i could do it with a bit more time
what i’m trying to say is that it’s not that hard and while it’s not at the any-user-can-do-it level, it is at the any-opinion-can-do-it level
I get you. But I’ve seen far too many users doing exactly this (starting their own mail server) in my programming circles. It doesn’t fare well tbh.
Which is important if you don’t want the Fediverse to become the next Voat.
Can you please explain?
Proactively banning problematic users before they cause issues is necessary. Prevention is better than cure.
Ah, the old guilt by association groupthink.
On principle I agree with you, people shouldn’t be banned until they break the rules. But practically I can’t ignore the other guys point, it might not be fair to everyone but it certainly seems effective in protecting a given community from trolling
This is a ridiculous response. I think autobanning people who common “killthejews@ss.gov” is probably a good idea.
You’re making a strawman argument and putting words in my mouth.
blocking whole servers because of disagreements over blocklists (not over the actual content of said servers) seems pretty silly. Banning users based on what they’ve posted just seems reasonable, at least in some cases. If they’re posting nazi shit over on some other instance but keep it only to wink wink nudge nudge dogwhistles on your instance where the rules are stricter, then its no huge loss to ban them for remote content. Quite the opposite in fact.
What mastodon server(s)?
The forced ‘inside jokes’ that filled so many threads, so many times you would see a post and be able to predict the top comment and its replies. Hoping that the lack of account karma helps with that.
Upvote/downvote counts mangling. Just show the real numbers, don’t mess with them with an unknown “algorithm”.
As far as I can see, the real number is already on top of the post. And then you have the split of up/downvotes near the arrows. So the “algorithm” is just basic addidion and subtraction. Someone correct me if I saw something wrong…
I think they’re referring to what Reddit did with not showing them separately
I think they’re actually referring to the anti vote manipulation reddit function which adds random values to vote counts (you can see it if you refresh a post that you know people aren’t viewing like it’s old then you can see the count change on refresh)
That’s not what they mean, they’re referring to “score fuzzing”, a tactic Reddit used to combat vote manipulation. The number you see on a post or comment isn’t the actual number, it’s been fudged a little.
Mods who are running 10 major subreddits. It gives them too much power to steer opinions.
The shadow cabal that ran Reddit
It’s honestly crazy that these random ass mods had the power to actually influence the views of millions
Lol as Reddit management will soon find out (we hope)
The awkward turtle…
That person needs som serious therapy and time away from the Internet, and the Internet needs time away from the turtle.
Mods locking threads because “y’all can’t behave” jfc just ban accounts breaking the rules and let the rest discuss
For real. I’m so sick of mod drama. 99% of the time, any sub drama boiled down to a mod freaking out over X
The reason they do this is so they don’t have to spend their entire life moderating a single thread.
r/AmItheAsshole is guilty of this.
They’re guilty of made up bullshit as well.
I feel like that’s part of the appeal at this point 🤷♂️
That sub has a weird sense of morality anyway. You can do a lot of harm while not being perceived as an asshole and vice versa. Why not focus on doing the most good for everyone involved instead?
a big one for me. Coming across a big discussion late and not being able to interact because its been locked down. Mod failures
Most trolls are posting on your sub for the first (and, if not banned, last) time in my experience, so bans to deal with a problem thread is fairly ineffective.
Some subs will set posts “members only” or whatever they decide to call it, which is a nice compromise.
Shadow banning… one of the most Orwellian moderation tools ever.
I never understood shadow banning. Just IP ban if you really don’t want that user coming back
The original use case for Shadow banning was bots I think. To them it looks like they’re comments are still being posted, but everyone else it’s invisible.
Which makes sense, I imagine if I was shadow banned i would realize pretty quick. But it’s not easy to have a bot realize they are shadow banned
given how that was such a dismal failure, I’m pessimistic about the future of the fediverse and its battle against bots
IP banning is such an annoyance if you are unlucky enough to only be able to deal with ISPs that do not use fixed IP addresses.
“Can’t post today, because another random person got my IP ‘du jour’ banned in the past” is a pretty terrible user experience.
And the pro troll uses Tor or a VPN and only needs to reconnect his client to receive a fresh IP address. I consider IP banning to be a very mediocre tool at best.
Pro trolls are a tiny minority, though. Most of them put no effort in whatsoever.
Yep. So many ISPs use CGNAT now because of the rising costs of IPv4 addresses. And for IPv6, you can get a /32 block for free from Hetzner or other cloud providers.
It’s not about making the user leave, because of they know they are banned they’ll try to evade. Shadow banning gives the desired effect while not tipping off the user. So they post away, to nobody.
A lot of the answers in this thread are things Reddit did to address specific problems that they encountered as the user base grew. Lemmy doesn’t have to make the same decisions, but it will inevitably encounter those same problems.
IP banning is not an effective tool
Reddit banned device MAC addresses, in my experience.
I pretty sure you can’t get someone’s MAC through a browser (through the app maybe), so I’m calling bullshit on this one.
Also MAC addresses are trivial to change to the point where Windows had a privacy feature to connect to random wifis with random MAC addressed turned on by default. IDK if it still does that.
How is that possible? On the app maybe? Generally all a website can see is your IP and whatever telemetry your browser sends back.
Hmm. Well, maybe my deductions are off. I used only RIF and a unique email address. Caught a ban. Remade account, banned within a few hours. Tried a week later, banned in a few hours. Gave up for a couple months then got a new device. Created an account, lasted for months. So I figured it was the device. Static IP. Email addresses the same just with a random number appended into it with a plus sign like just+283748w9293@emails.com. Wasn’t trying to hide.
I found the site wide rule against violence to be arbitrarily and poorly enforced. I wrote a lot about legal history and specifically crime and punishment, and I guess my prose and rhetoric sometimes confused the admins into thinking I would ever endorse violence.
Anyway, found it hard to find your reply here to comment back to you. Browning in jerboa. Could see your reply in the inbox but clicking on it didn’t bring up a reply option, just took me to the full comments. Had to scroll through your posts, you seem pretty chill and reasonable and thanks for making so many comments. I think it’s really about the discussions rather than the top level meme content.
Aww, you’re so sweet! I’m sorry you had trouble with that.
As a new community we need to identify and stamp out bad actors immediately and thoroughly (spammers, selfservers, ads disguised as posts, brigading, illegal content, racism, you get the idea).
We can’t control if they create their own instances, but we can isolate them.If Lemmy truly catches on we probably can’t totally prevent an Eternal September, but I do hope we go a long way to staving it off.
this seems to be a good place to mention avoiding groupthink and trendy opinions. more fresh diverisity and bold independent thinkers.
a flood of general americans would be worse than cultivating a niche counterculture initial userbase.
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Shadowbans especially. Either ban a post or not, but don’t make the poster think everyone can still see it without explanation.
The Fediverse already has these, there are lots of echo chamber instances that automatically block other instances for simply federating with the “wrong” instance (equivalent to those AutoMod bans on Reddit for posting in a certain subreddit). Since instance admins pay for their instances out of pocket, they are more restrictive with their instance’s allowed content than social media websites that want to cast the widest net. Eventually, there will be a massive split between communities, like how conservative and progressive Mastodon instances all block each other. Centrists can just have an account on each side of the wall.
Mod culture is always odd to me. I kind of wish there was more community modderation, and less dictators for life running things.
I know with mine that’s the approach I’m taking. Let the community dictate rules rather than power tripping mods
What’s your community?
I run an instance for all things pop music! From Madonna to Taylor Swift, if you like pop music you have a home with us! poptalk.scrubbles.tech
I can’t think of a subject I have less interest in but I love that we’re actually seeing all kinds of communities pop up here.
Looking at their profile, it’s probably !taylorswift@poptalk.scrubbles.tech
Definitely a problem that comes with reddit and the unique subreddit names I’d say. I feel like that may not be avoided here since moving many subscribers from a large->small community is so difficult. Maybe the federation style will be successful though, I can’t say I have enough experience to predict that well.
To be honest, I don’t think that’s entirely just a Reddit thing. Power tripping mods have been around as long as Internet forums have in general. It’s a tough one to combat for sure.
As have complaints about legitimate mods from people who got banned. It is a complex issue even just to get the facts of the matter. Maybe some sort of public log of all mod messages and actions would help with that but then one would have to ensure that the people who like the deleted messages don’t just use the mod log as their new place to spread the content.
Bullshit moderation.
Reddit was so full of hateful shit. Reddit’s AEO (Anti Evil Operations, basically the admins personal “mod team”, probably outsourced to some country with lacking English skills) would continue to tell me that the most blatant hateful comments do not violate Reddit’s ToS. Meanwhile, you get (perma) banned for the most ridiculous & mundane things at times, like saying that a fascist Italy should get kicked out of the EU & NATO. Apparently this is considered “spreading hate” and they even denied my appeal, explaining that both institutions require the members to be democratic. Meanwhile all the racism on subs like /r/europe would go unpunished. I also tried to report similar comments to mine as hate, but containing less popular countries like Turkey, and unsurprisingly they also didn’t see it as hate.Getting harassed by other users that reply on all your comments & follow you around? Nope, no violation.
Questioning the title & picture relation of a governmental account? Apparently harassment / bullying worth a 7 day ban.
Calling out dehumanization? Perma ban in a sub.
Perma ban in a sub? Perma ban in another sub for complaining about it, for “ban evasion”.
Speaking out against predatory monetization methods & FOMO tactics in modern video games? Getting attacked & insulted by users and consequently perma banned for being “an asshole troll” - none of the attacks & insults were removed, let alone punished.What isn’t a violation? Racism, transphobia, homophobia, calls for violence, etc.
In regards to big hate subs it is also mostly the case that Reddit only goes and does something against them when there’s some sort of media attention around it. When it directly affects their potential income. Maybe if advertisers start to complain about it.The enforcement of the rules is so random at this point that I don’t even know what one is allowed to say, or why I even should care about accounts and the platform as a whole. I understand that moderation of big platforms is not an easy task, but one surely can do better than whatever the hell Reddit is doing nowadays.
In regards to specifically Lemmy I would say they aren’t up to a good start with the controversial admin team and their extremist views.
The nice thing about federation is that you can always go somewhere else if you disagree with a particular instance.
Lemmy’s devs have questionable politics at best. IMO, I don’t care as long as it doesn’t impact how they run the site - people have a right to their own opinions, as long as those opinions don’t harass or hurt others directly.
But let’s say they changed one day. Maybe one day they added something to the code forcing everyone to praise the CCP or else.
Because the software is open-source - people could fork it before the change. It’s out there already. People can totally make their own little variants of Lemmy with added features, if that’s something they wanted to do. You can modify the code yourself and then self-host the modified version. No matter what Lemmy’s devs do… they have no power on your instance. A fork means you own the code.
I’ve seen the sentiment tossed around that it’s unethical to use Lemmy because if you donate to the project (or contribute to donations towards the project) you are financing people who have bad politics. That’s your prerogative. I personally disagree - again, as long as your politics aren’t actively contributing to harassment/harm you shouldn’t be punished for them - but I understand the sentiment.
To that, I say - well, there’s other options. That’s the beauty of the Fediverse - you don’t have any Musk or Spez that comes along to ruin everything. I’m on Kbin, which I like a lot. The dev is a great guy, and I really like how it combines the best of Lemmy and Mastodon.
Even if you want to stay on Lemmy, there are wonderful communities on Lemmy that disagree with the direction of the devs. Beehaw is a great place with a fantastic mod team, for example. You can donate to Beehaw’s devs and know it’s going to keep Beehaw running, and it’s not the same as supporting Lemmy directly.
Because the software is open-source - people could fork it before the change. It’s out there already. People can totally make their own little variants of Lemmy with added features, if that’s something they wanted to do. You can modify the code yourself and then self-host the modified version. No matter what Lemmy’s devs do… they have no power on your instance. A fork means you own the code.
People are already doing so, right now. AFAIK Lemmy by default doesn’t have the ability to disable downvoting, yet Beehaw and the instance I’m on (among others, probably) do have downvoting disabled.
Nope, the ability to disable downvotes instance wide was added in v0.6.0 back in 2020 by Dessalines, and received some patches last year in 0.16.3
it’s also been the default on hexbear.net for the past several years
Huh, I didn’t know that.
Wow, thank you for this post. Doing some reading on Lemmy’s devs’ attitude toward human rights, and… I think I’ll check out Kbin. Thanks again, I had no idea!
Point me to some quality reading?
I got a warning for saying the words “kill yourself” in the context of a video game discussion where someone killed their own character to kill a streamer’s character in the perma death mode. The method used was an ability that links 2 characters together and if one of them dies, they both die. There was some change made to prevent this in the future so i said something along the lines of “you could still kill yourself trough other means, i don’t see how this solves the issue” and got a site wide warning with no way to appeal
By that metric, everyone that used LowTierGod meme should have been banned, which is half of reddit at this point.
What’s the story about the Lemmy admins? Hadn’t heard anything about that.
I’ve been on lemmy for about three years and the admins have been phenomenal. The interactions I’ve had and seen with them have been well-reasoned and positive.
I can’t speak for whether it’s true or not, but the answer I’ve seen is that they’re tankies, or associated with that crowd in some way.
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Oh you were on a roll with this one but crashed right into a corner at the end there, lol.
