In response to Wayland Breaks Your Bad Software

I say that the technical merits are irrelevant because I don’t believe that they’re a major factor any more in most people moving or not moving to Wayland.

With only a slight amount of generalization, none of these people will be moved by Wayland’s technical merits. The energetic people who could be persuaded by technical merits to go through switching desktop environments or in some cases replacing hardware (or accepting limited features) have mostly moved to Wayland already. The people who remain on X are there either because they don’t want to rebuild their desktop environment, they don’t want to do without features and performance they currently have, or their Linux distribution doesn’t think their desktop should switch to Wayland yet.

  • @Sh1nyM3t4l4ss@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    I switched to Wayland over two years ago and these days I don’t look back at all. I don’t care if Wayland has full feature parity with X11 as long the features I actually use are supported which they are.

    Clipboard sharing in VirtualBox doesn’t work right now (though I’m relatively sure it could be implemented by VirtualBox right now with Wayland as it is) and neither does AutoTyping in KeePassXC (not sure if there’s a mechanism for that on Wayland), though Autofill in the Browser works so it’s no big deal to me.

    In return I get 1:1 touch gestures, better multi monitor support and an overall smoother desktop on Plasma Wayland so I’ll take it.

    People often still make complaints about Wayland that have been fixed months or years ago and it’s a bit tiring.

      • Bob
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        209 months ago

        Yeah? Things like having a 60hz monitor and a 120hz monitor is basically non existent on X11, plus Wayland has this “perfect frame every time” + vsync philosophy which means no tearing and it feels much smoother to use than X11

    • @marty_relaxes@discuss.tchncs.de
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      49 months ago

      On the topic of auto-typing, the mechanisms for variations of it exist in Wayland since I am using it in my password scripts to automatically fill login boxes. (Using tools like ydotool or wtype.)

      So I would guess that KeePass hasn’t integrated the necessary protocols/api for Wayland?

  • @flashgnash@lemm.ee
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    459 months ago

    The ability to have multiple displays at different scales is a godsend when trying to use a laptop with a 4k display connected to 1080p monitors or vice versa

    • @michaelrose
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      59 months ago

      This already works on X and indeed has worked longer than Wayland has existed.

        • @michaelrose
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          9 months ago

          I just passed scale to xrandr after computing the proper scale and then used the nvidia-settings gui to write current configuration to xorg.conf its not incredibly hard basically all you are doing is scaling lower DPI items up to the same resolution as your highest dpi item and letting it scale down the correct physical size. For instance if you have 27’ monitors that are 4K and 1080p you just scale the 1080 ones by 2 if you have a 4k 27 and a 1080 24" its closer to 1.75. The correct ratio can be found with your favorite calculator app.

          You can set this scaling directly in nvidia-settings come to think of it where you set viewport in and viewport out.

          • LaggyKar
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            259 months ago

            That’s not at all the same thing. That requires downscaling some screens, which makes everything blurry and breaks subpixel AA.

            • @cobra89@beehaw.org
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              69 months ago

              Yeah, wherever someone says “X has/has had fractional scaling” I just ignore them because it’s never actually true fractional scaling that doesn’t look and act like utter crap.

              • @michaelrose
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                09 months ago

                I know you live in this weird universe where the screen that is 12 inches from my face actually looks like crap but it just isn’t so you are merely confused.

            • @michaelrose
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              -39 months ago

              It is literally how Wayland is scaling your shit you just don’t know how anything works.

              • @TeryVeneno
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                59 months ago

                Huh? That is not how Wayland does it at all.

              • LaggyKar
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                19 months ago

                Without the recently added wp-fractional-scale-v1, yes, it will do that if you use fractional scales (albeit per window rather than per monitor). Not however if you stick to integer scales, as they might do in the 1080p+4k use case.

      • @flashgnash@lemm.ee
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        119 months ago

        I tried unsuccessfully to get this working for quite some time and broke my xrandr settings quite a few times

        With Wayland/gnome I just click a button in the settings gui and it works flawlessly

        • @michaelrose
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          09 months ago

          With X/i3 I had to read and the result works well. With Sway I had to read and the result works poorly. So is sway better for the illiterate?

          • @flashgnash@lemm.ee
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            9 months ago

            Would you not say the best case scenario is for it to just work great straight away and not require you to read a manual or do any debugging at all just to configure your display scale?

            Also sway/i3 aren’t known to be “it just works” kinda window managers anyway they’re definitely aimed at people who like to tinker

      • @Auli@lemmy.ca
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        49 months ago

        Sure but the thing is stuff that I have to edit files for install other programs just work with wayland out of the box.

  • 0x0
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    9 months ago

    X11 is, to put it simply, not at all fit for any modern system. Full stop. Everything to make it work on modern systems are just hacks. Don’t even try to get away with “well, it just works for me” or “but Wayland no worky”.

    I really don’t know if there could be a more obnoxious opening than this. I guess Wayland fanatics have taken a page from the Rust playbook of trying to shame people into using it when technical merits aren’t enough (“But your code is UNSAFE!”)

      • @orangeboats@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        I feel that the biggest mistake of X11’s protocol design is the idea of a “root window” that is supposed to cover the whole screen.

        Perhaps that worked greatly in the 1990s, but it’s just completely incompatible with multi-displays that we commonly see in modern setups. Hacks upon hacks were involved to make multi-displays a possibility on X11. The root window no longer corresponded to a single display. In heterogenous display setups, part of the root window is actually invisible.

        Later on we decided to stack compositing on top of the already-hacky mess, and it was so bad that many opted to disable the compositor (no Martha, compositors are more than wobbly windows!).

        And then there’s the problem of sandboxing programs… Which is completely unmappable to X11 even with hacks.

        • @michaelrose
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          -19 months ago

          Multiple displays work fine. The only thing that needs to be drawn in the root window is attractive backgrounds sized to your displays I’m not sure why you think that is hacky or complicated.

          • West Siberian Laika
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            79 months ago

            Multiple displays only work as long as you have identical resolutions and refresh rates. Good luck mixing monitors with different scaling factors and refresh rates on X11.

            • @Hexarei@programming.dev
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              29 months ago

              I run multiple refresh rates without any trouble, one 165hz monitor alongside my other 60hz ones. Is that supposed to be broken somehow?

            • @michaelrose
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              -19 months ago

              This wasn’t true in 2003 when I started using Linux in fact the feature is so old I’m not sure exactly when it was implemented. You have always been able to have different resolutions and in fact different scaling factors. It works like this

              You scale your lower DPI display or displays UP to match your highest DPI and let X scale down to the physical size. HIGHER / LOWER = SCALE FACTOR. So with 2 27" monitors where one is 4k and the other is 1080p the factor is 2, a 27" 4K with a 24" 1080p is roughly 1.75.

              Configured like so everything is sharp and UI elements are the same size on every screen. If your monitors are vertically aligned you could put a window between monitors and see the damn characters lined up correctly.

              If you use the soooo unfriendly Nvidia GPU you can actually configure this in its GUI for configuring your monitors. If not you can set with xrandr the argument is --scale shockingly enough

              Different refresh rates also of course work but you ARE limited to the lower refresh rate. This is about the only meaningful limitation.

              • @orangeboats@lemmy.world
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                19 months ago

                …What? The root window was supposed to mean “the whole screen”. It no longer does - that’s the lie. Then people created XRandR to help work around it - that’s the hack.

      • @woelkchen@lemmy.world
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        109 months ago

        This is not an insult to the people behind X11.

        The people behind X11 agree and that’s why they founded Wayland.

          • @Auli@lemmy.ca
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            49 months ago

            Sure but the people behind X11 are the same ones behind Wayland so when the develpers didn’t think it was worth the time to fix X11 and it would be better to start a new project to fix the issues. How can end users think we should just fix X11 make anysense? I think their biggest mistake is they should have called Wayland X12 or something like that.

    • @Static_Rocket@lemmy.world
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      259 months ago

      No, no, they’ve got a point. The architecture of Wayland is much more sane. Because of the way refresh events are driven its also much more power and memory efficient. I’ll miss bspwm and picom but man there is a lot riding on simplifying the graphics stack under Linux. The X hacks, GLX, and all the other weird interactions X decided to take away from applications made things non-portable to begin with and a nightmare for any embedded devices that thought GLES was good enough.

    • @Sh1nyM3t4l4ss@lemmy.world
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      219 months ago

      There are several remarks in that article that bothered me. I agree with their message overall and am a strong proponent of Wayland but…

      Unless your workflow (and hardware) comes from 20+ years ago, you have almost no reason to stick with Xorg

      There definitely are valid use cases that aren’t 20 years old that will keep you on X11 for a little while longer. And hardware too: NVIDIA dropped driver support for Kepler GPUs and older before they added GBM support which is effectively a requirement for Wayland, so you can’t use these older cards on Wayland with the proprietary drivers

      Of course, NVIDIA likes to do their own thing, as always. Just use Nouveau if you want to do anything with Xwayland, and you don’t have several GPUs.

      Uh, no. Nouveau is not a serious option for anyone who likes using their GPU for useful things. And on those older cards it will likely never work well.

      The author of that article seems extremely ignorant of other people’s needs.

      • @woelkchen@lemmy.world
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        29 months ago

        NVIDIA dropped driver support for Kepler GPUs and older before they added GBM support which is effectively a requirement for Wayland, so you can’t use these older cards on Wayland with the proprietary drivers

        That’s definitively the fault of people to buy NVidia hardware which only works fine on Windows. It’s not the fault of Wayland developers that NVidia is a shit company that does not care to make their hardware properly run on Linux.

        • @Sh1nyM3t4l4ss@lemmy.world
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          29 months ago

          Can we stop shaming people who buy NVIDIA?

          For one, people want to keep using what they have and not buy something new just because it may work better on Linux, abd they may not even be able to afford an upgrade. They probably didn’t even know about Linux compatibility when they got it.

          And additionally, some people have to use NVIDIA because e. g. they rely on CUDA or something (which is unfortunate but not their fault).

          And honestly, NVIDIA is fine on Linux nowadays. It sucks that support for older cards will likely stay crappy forever but hopefully with the open kernel drivers and NVK newer cards won’t have to suffer that fate.

          • @woelkchen@lemmy.world
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            39 months ago

            Can we stop shaming people who buy NVIDIA?

            Can people who buy NVidia hardware contrary to widespread wisdom just start to own up to their decisions and not complain about Wayland every time it is mentioned?

      • @michaelrose
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        -19 months ago

        The author is a Wayland fanboy which almost by definition makes them a moron. We are talking about folks who were singing the same song like 7 years ago when the crack they were promoting was outrageously broken for most use cases.

    • @russjr08@outpost.zeuslink.net
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      209 months ago

      I find that usually when people write “Full stop”, it’s best to just stop reading there in most cases.

      It comes off as “I am correct, how dare you think that for a moment I could be wrong”.

      I’d love to use Wayland, but until it works properly on Nvidia hardware like X11 is, then it’s not a viable option for me. Of course, then someone always goes “Well then use an AMD card” but money doesn’t grow on trees. The only reason I’m not still using a 970 is because a friend of mine was nice and gave me his 2080 that he was no longer using, along with some other really nice upgrades to my hardware.

      Honestly it’s one of the biggest issues I have with the Linux community. I love Linux and FOSS software but the people who go around and yell at anyone who isn’t using Linux, and the people who write articles like this who try to shame you for your choices (something that is supposed to be a landmark of using open source software) only make Linux look bad.

      There’s a difference between someone kindly telling others that X11 is not likely to receive any new major features and bug fixes (which is the right thing to do, in order to inform someone something they may not know) - and then there’s whatever the author of this quote is doing.

      • @happyhippo@feddit.it
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        9 months ago

        It happens all the time in the magical world of closed source, too.

        Ever heard about the iOS vs Android fights? How people shame Android users for being green bubbles?

        It’s just the extension of the my camp vs theirs applied to the tech field, nothing new.

        • @pelotron@midwest.social
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          9 months ago

          I laughed off reports about this kind of thing, thinking “omg who could possibly give a shit about what color their text bubble is in a group chat?” Later my gen Z office mate told me about how he uses an iPhone and cited this exact reason unironically. I was stunned into silence.

          • @zwekihoyy
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            9 months ago

            there’s a decent amount of research into the psychology behind it and how reading white text on the light green is more difficult than on the blue bubble. it’s rather interesting.

            edit: although I would think dark mode should change that effect a little bit

        • @russjr08@outpost.zeuslink.net
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          19 months ago

          Oh absolutely, I am sadly all far too well aware of those cases (especially the “green bubbles” thing, I’ve never rolled my eyes harder at a silly situation).

          It’s not even strictly a tech thing either, its a long standing thing in human history no matter where you look, and unfortunately I don’t see it going away any time soon.

      • @bemenaker@lemmy.world
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        19 months ago

        It sounds like you need to be complaining to nvidia to do a better job with their drivers. If the drivers suck, it doesn’t matter what wayland does.

    • @Auli@lemmy.ca
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      99 months ago

      Ok but then how about the developers of X11 who decided it wasn’t worth fixing the issues and to start a new project called Wayland where they could start from scratch to fix the issues. Does that change your mind at all?

      • 0x0
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        -19 months ago

        I have not had a single X11-related issue in the last decade.

        • West Siberian Laika
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          59 months ago

          I don’t want to sound rude, but how old is your setup? Are you using a desktop or a laptop computer?

          Because I’m daily driving a late 2015 Dell XPS 9350 and X11 just ain’t cutting it, even though the laptop is nearly a decade old. On X11, its trackpad would be garbage, GNOME’s animations would be stuttery, and fractional scaling would be a mess, because I have a docking station with a 75 Hz ultrawide monitor, meaning that I must utilise both 125% and 100% scaling factors, as well as 60 Hz and 75 Hz refresh rates and different resolutions. Sure, not everyone uses multi monitor setups, but those who do serious office tasks or content production work often cannot imagine their workflow without multiple monitors. Point is, X11 is to ancient to handle such tasks smoothly, reliably and efficiently.

          • 0x0
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            49 months ago

            It’s not rude - don’t worry. My main desktop runs 4 monitors at 1080p. GPU is an RX 580. I have a number of other laptops/tablets/desktops running similar configs, including ones with mixed resolutions and refresh rates. Gaming/video production/programming.

            I think people are really discounting the amount of value experience with a certain set of software has to the end-user. Wayland isn’t a drop-in replacement. There’s a new suite of software and tooling around it that has to be learned, and this is by design. Understandably, many people focus on getting displays working properly on mixed resolutions and refresh rates, but there are concerns for usability/accessibility outside of that.

    • @michaelrose
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      39 months ago

      This is literally the exact bad attitude of your average Wayland proponent. The thing which has worked for 20 years doesn’t work you just hallucinated it along with all the show stopper bugs you encountered when you tried to switch to Wayland.