In response to Wayland Breaks Your Bad Software

I say that the technical merits are irrelevant because I don’t believe that they’re a major factor any more in most people moving or not moving to Wayland.

With only a slight amount of generalization, none of these people will be moved by Wayland’s technical merits. The energetic people who could be persuaded by technical merits to go through switching desktop environments or in some cases replacing hardware (or accepting limited features) have mostly moved to Wayland already. The people who remain on X are there either because they don’t want to rebuild their desktop environment, they don’t want to do without features and performance they currently have, or their Linux distribution doesn’t think their desktop should switch to Wayland yet.

  • Sh1nyM3t4l4ss@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    I switched to Wayland over two years ago and these days I don’t look back at all. I don’t care if Wayland has full feature parity with X11 as long the features I actually use are supported which they are.

    Clipboard sharing in VirtualBox doesn’t work right now (though I’m relatively sure it could be implemented by VirtualBox right now with Wayland as it is) and neither does AutoTyping in KeePassXC (not sure if there’s a mechanism for that on Wayland), though Autofill in the Browser works so it’s no big deal to me.

    In return I get 1:1 touch gestures, better multi monitor support and an overall smoother desktop on Plasma Wayland so I’ll take it.

    People often still make complaints about Wayland that have been fixed months or years ago and it’s a bit tiring.

      • Bob@sh.itjust.works
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        10 months ago

        Yeah? Things like having a 60hz monitor and a 120hz monitor is basically non existent on X11, plus Wayland has this “perfect frame every time” + vsync philosophy which means no tearing and it feels much smoother to use than X11

    • marty_relaxes@discuss.tchncs.de
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      10 months ago

      On the topic of auto-typing, the mechanisms for variations of it exist in Wayland since I am using it in my password scripts to automatically fill login boxes. (Using tools like ydotool or wtype.)

      So I would guess that KeePass hasn’t integrated the necessary protocols/api for Wayland?

  • flashgnash@lemm.ee
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    10 months ago

    The ability to have multiple displays at different scales is a godsend when trying to use a laptop with a 4k display connected to 1080p monitors or vice versa

    • michaelrose
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      10 months ago

      This already works on X and indeed has worked longer than Wayland has existed.

        • michaelrose
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          10 months ago

          I just passed scale to xrandr after computing the proper scale and then used the nvidia-settings gui to write current configuration to xorg.conf its not incredibly hard basically all you are doing is scaling lower DPI items up to the same resolution as your highest dpi item and letting it scale down the correct physical size. For instance if you have 27’ monitors that are 4K and 1080p you just scale the 1080 ones by 2 if you have a 4k 27 and a 1080 24" its closer to 1.75. The correct ratio can be found with your favorite calculator app.

          You can set this scaling directly in nvidia-settings come to think of it where you set viewport in and viewport out.

          • LaggyKar@programming.dev
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            10 months ago

            That’s not at all the same thing. That requires downscaling some screens, which makes everything blurry and breaks subpixel AA.

            • cobra89@beehaw.org
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              10 months ago

              Yeah, wherever someone says “X has/has had fractional scaling” I just ignore them because it’s never actually true fractional scaling that doesn’t look and act like utter crap.

              • pwnna@lemmy.ca
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                10 months ago

                It also tears significantly in my experience, which is pretty unusable…

              • michaelrose
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                10 months ago

                I know you live in this weird universe where the screen that is 12 inches from my face actually looks like crap but it just isn’t so you are merely confused.

            • michaelrose
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              10 months ago

              It is literally how Wayland is scaling your shit you just don’t know how anything works.

              • TeryVeneno
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                10 months ago

                Huh? That is not how Wayland does it at all.

              • LaggyKar@programming.dev
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                10 months ago

                Without the recently added wp-fractional-scale-v1, yes, it will do that if you use fractional scales (albeit per window rather than per monitor). Not however if you stick to integer scales, as they might do in the 1080p+4k use case.

      • flashgnash@lemm.ee
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        10 months ago

        I tried unsuccessfully to get this working for quite some time and broke my xrandr settings quite a few times

        With Wayland/gnome I just click a button in the settings gui and it works flawlessly

        • michaelrose
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          10 months ago

          With X/i3 I had to read and the result works well. With Sway I had to read and the result works poorly. So is sway better for the illiterate?

          • flashgnash@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            Would you not say the best case scenario is for it to just work great straight away and not require you to read a manual or do any debugging at all just to configure your display scale?

            Also sway/i3 aren’t known to be “it just works” kinda window managers anyway they’re definitely aimed at people who like to tinker

      • Auli@lemmy.ca
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        10 months ago

        Sure but the thing is stuff that I have to edit files for install other programs just work with wayland out of the box.

  • 0x0@social.rocketsfall.net
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    10 months ago

    X11 is, to put it simply, not at all fit for any modern system. Full stop. Everything to make it work on modern systems are just hacks. Don’t even try to get away with “well, it just works for me” or “but Wayland no worky”.

    I really don’t know if there could be a more obnoxious opening than this. I guess Wayland fanatics have taken a page from the Rust playbook of trying to shame people into using it when technical merits aren’t enough (“But your code is UNSAFE!”)

      • orangeboats@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        I feel that the biggest mistake of X11’s protocol design is the idea of a “root window” that is supposed to cover the whole screen.

        Perhaps that worked greatly in the 1990s, but it’s just completely incompatible with multi-displays that we commonly see in modern setups. Hacks upon hacks were involved to make multi-displays a possibility on X11. The root window no longer corresponded to a single display. In heterogenous display setups, part of the root window is actually invisible.

        Later on we decided to stack compositing on top of the already-hacky mess, and it was so bad that many opted to disable the compositor (no Martha, compositors are more than wobbly windows!).

        And then there’s the problem of sandboxing programs… Which is completely unmappable to X11 even with hacks.

        • michaelrose
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          10 months ago

          Multiple displays work fine. The only thing that needs to be drawn in the root window is attractive backgrounds sized to your displays I’m not sure why you think that is hacky or complicated.

          • West Siberian Laika@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            Multiple displays only work as long as you have identical resolutions and refresh rates. Good luck mixing monitors with different scaling factors and refresh rates on X11.

            • Hexarei@programming.dev
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              10 months ago

              I run multiple refresh rates without any trouble, one 165hz monitor alongside my other 60hz ones. Is that supposed to be broken somehow?

            • michaelrose
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              10 months ago

              This wasn’t true in 2003 when I started using Linux in fact the feature is so old I’m not sure exactly when it was implemented. You have always been able to have different resolutions and in fact different scaling factors. It works like this

              You scale your lower DPI display or displays UP to match your highest DPI and let X scale down to the physical size. HIGHER / LOWER = SCALE FACTOR. So with 2 27" monitors where one is 4k and the other is 1080p the factor is 2, a 27" 4K with a 24" 1080p is roughly 1.75.

              Configured like so everything is sharp and UI elements are the same size on every screen. If your monitors are vertically aligned you could put a window between monitors and see the damn characters lined up correctly.

              If you use the soooo unfriendly Nvidia GPU you can actually configure this in its GUI for configuring your monitors. If not you can set with xrandr the argument is --scale shockingly enough

              Different refresh rates also of course work but you ARE limited to the lower refresh rate. This is about the only meaningful limitation.

      • woelkchen@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        This is not an insult to the people behind X11.

        The people behind X11 agree and that’s why they founded Wayland.

          • Auli@lemmy.ca
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            10 months ago

            Sure but the people behind X11 are the same ones behind Wayland so when the develpers didn’t think it was worth the time to fix X11 and it would be better to start a new project to fix the issues. How can end users think we should just fix X11 make anysense? I think their biggest mistake is they should have called Wayland X12 or something like that.