I think it’s important to understand that Marxist-Leninists should be supporting the people of both countries, rather than picking one of two capitalist states to back. I understand that Russia has its excuses for doing this, and the Ukraine government has its excuses for what it has done, but it’s important to remember that they are both capitalist countries in the age of imperialism; what they are really after is power. Please feel free to correct me if you believe I got anything wrong.
This isn’t a case of “inter-imperialist conflict”, or a “both sides bad” situation. Its a case of halting NATO expansionism, and preventing the banderist Ukraine regime from continuing to kill innocent people in the Donbass with impunity.
Imperialism is the #1 contradiction, and it really doesn’t matter what the political system of any of western imperialism’s victims are. Many of them are / were not communist or socialist: Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc. Just because russia is capitalist, is not a condition of our support for their righteous defense against NATO. Russia defending its border areas from NATO and Banderist nazis is not imperialism.
can i just say that i’m glad you’re an admin here :O
❤
I love you based admin ♥️♥️♥️
Btw, where u from, Muad’Dibber?
Not today, CIA.
Wait, is that sensitive info? I just meant which country you’re from. I’m from Britain, fam
Not today, Ml6
Ok, I must be stupid as I’m not getting the joke. Are people that afraid of getting doxxed that they withhold their country of origin?
While I agree that Russia is justified in defending itself from NATO, I’ve seen far too many MLs praising the state of Russia. Additionally I don’t think any ML should really be that concerned about whether Russia as a State survives or not
ML should really be that concerned about whether Russia as a State survives or not
Would you be saying this about Iraq? The US destroyed it, just like its trying to do to Russia.
Just because a country is capitalist, is not enough to say “it shouldn’t survive.” That focuses on surface-level labels as being enough to demonize a country. The communist party of the russian federation, which is the 2nd largest political party in russia, agrees with this intervention in Ukraine.
As a matter of fact, I would say that a state being capitalist is enough to say it shouldn’t survive. Of course the answer to this is not said country being replaced with another capitalist state, which is why I said I belive they are justified in defending themselves from NATO. I simply urge caution against getting used to placing your trust in capitalist states. Russia is NOT our end all be all, and the government probably doesn’t really care that much about denazification. They are simply looking out for their own interests. As a conclusion and clarification, I think the invasion is a net positive, but we should be cautious about Russia and its intentions and interests.
As a matter of fact, I would say that a state being capitalist is enough to say it shouldn’t survive.
👀 . Iraq “shouldn’t have survived” I guess? What about the dozens of other capitalist countries the US has intervened against? Most capitalist countries, especially those in the global south, are poor, and don’t receive the benefits that imperial-core capitalist countries do.
Russia is NOT our end all be all, and the government probably doesn’t really care that much about denazification.
The people of Russia still bear the scars of defending the world from nazism. Putin even had many family members die in the defense of Leningrad. In russia, unlike other capitalist countries, nazism is illegal, and communism is 100% legal (the 2nd largest party in russia in communist).
Again, this is a childish labeling of complicated countries. Capitalism = bad, so they should all be destroyed! I’m done thinking now!
I feel as if I’m being slightly misinterpreted here. When I say a capitalist state should cease to exist I do not mean it should be bombed into oblivion by other capitalist states. I mean they should be overthrown. Obviously I don’t think the west was justified in what it did to Iraq, but supporting the capitalist government of Iraq to undermine the west, rather than the people of Iraq is not the correct response. And yes, capitalism is bad, therefore the capitalist governments should be dissolved, but that is not to say the nations themselves should be bombed.
It should go without saying that all capitalist governments should eventually be dissolved, but that doesn’t mean it is best to fight all of them at the same time no matter the circumstances. Sometimes it might be better to have hired thug with you who is a bit shady and untrustworthy but knows how to fight, then a best friend that is scrawny and essentially useless. If Russia were to have an attempted communist insurrection now, their army, economy and pool of talented personnel would suffer massively and would essentially give NATO a free pass to move in and conquer Russia. The West did exactly this to Syria where they armed Anti-Assad leftist along with ISIS with the intent of weakening and fracturing Syria as whole.
Exactly, russia having an communist insurgence right now would be no different them the anarchist insurgence in the spanish civil war, it would be just useless infighting that would give fascists an free card to do what they want.
supporting the capitalist government of Iraq to undermine the west, rather than the people of Iraq is not the correct response.
It absolutely is, or rather was at the time. You support even a capitalist government at odds with imperialism, because any blow against the global imperialist system is a blow against capitalism. It is part of the historical process that culminates in socialism. As Marx himself says “the communists, in short, support every uprising against the existing nature of things.”
We do not uphold socialism as a moral system. We uphold historical progress, and we recognize any state struggling against imperialism as progressive. This is the difference between us and liberals. A state like the modern Russian Federation, that fights for the interests of its national bourgeoisie, is undermining global capitalism, and thus ultimately undermining its own existence as a capitalist power. It is creating the conditions for socialism to emerge on the global stage, whether the government and people know it or not.
We do not uphold socialism as a moral system. We uphold historical progress
Fucking yeah. I think more leftists should bear this in mind. We’re not here making distinction between good and evil. For more than 5000 years the mankind have only created various form of “evil” political structure. Was it because people were not smart or morally enlightened to see that those regimes were “bad”? If you travel 5000 years back into the past will you be able to guide mankind into building an immaculately good socialism in a matter of years, or even decades? Of course no, because the material condition was not ripe for socialism.
So it’s really pointless to guide your politics with mere moral sentiment, which will either lead you into ultra-leftism or liberalism. You need an analysis of the material, historical condition. So people who say “Russia bad”, should really offer something more than a bland moral categorisation. They should offer a materially possible alternative, a better historical path towards world socialism.
Our liberal political culture taught us none of that and have trained us to be moralists about politics because liberalism is highly moralistic. It’s moralistic precisely because it was built upon the very misconception that human mind has been clouded until some European white dudes in 17C or 18C came up with the Enlightenment and that was the precise moment the human race had discovered the moral truth about human rights, freedom and so on. This is an ideological historiography that worked and works very well to justify the bourgeois revolutions and sanctify itself as the final form of human society. Marxists do not do that. We study the rationality behind history and try to help giving birth of a further, more rationalised form of society.
We don’t even want to sanctify socialism as “eternally good” and then plan to stay in socialism forever. We always recognise even a socialist state cannot be “100% good” whatever that means, because socialism itself is always in a dialectical movement transitioning into something else: communism, or backtracking into capitalism. Morality is a mode of thinking that either sanctify or vilify the present. It’s designed to be black and white. Whereas dialectics is a mode of thinking that trace the world in its motion. It knows things can’t be understood by simply putting them into different boxes, because they’re forever changing, and the reason why they’re changing is that there are contradictions inherent in it. And it’s precisely because things are inherently contradictory, they are both good and evil at the same time – binary categorisation simply can’t make sense of it.
If we are not going to support the state, with is the only organised form of the country to defend itself against imperialism, then who are we going to support? Like it or not, the russian people are dependent on the russian state to defend themselves against the west, there is a reason the Putin still is popular. We cant just say we support the people, because the people on a capitalist state are not the ones on power, the capitalists are, so the capitalists are responsible for the security of the country and the people living in it. If we are going to support the people, then it needs to be an people’s state, organised enough in a way that the people can defend themselves.
I think it is important to support capitalist iraq to gain its own independence and strength, and then support the people to have a revolution. Do not support the people to have a revolution while iraq is still at war with the west, that will only weaken it further.
From what throne do you sit on of which you claim which states you are okay with not “surviving”.
I agreed until the last sentence. We dont need to praise Russia for its internal management, its a pretty shitty country, but it definitely matters that it isnt destroyed. Russia is an asshole thats on our side.
Insane, tone deaf shit, educate yourself and correct this
Russia is a nuclear armed country, and has the most advanced missiles in the world (including hypersonic). If it gets destroyed, then other parts of the world will also get destroyed. Particularly the U.S.
You could not be more wrong. We have no love for the national bourgeois regime ruling in Russia at the moment but it is essential to understand that in the present geopolitical situation any destabilization of Russia that could lead to its weakening or to regime change would be a disaster.
And before you start thinking that maybe this would not be so bad considering communists have in the past made use of such situations to launch a revolution, let me assure you the communist forces in Russia are not nearly strong or organized enough yet to be able to take advantage of a destabilization of Russia’s present government, but the liberal NGOs are always ready and waiting. We would not see a second 1917 but a second 1991, another color revolution that will bring about such total subjugation to neoliberalism and imperialism, and such internal devastation and civil conflicts that it will make the 90s seem like “the good old days” in comparison.
Because if Russia falls to the imperialist onslaught China will 100% be next on the list. Russia is the single biggest obstacle standing in the way of western imperialism waging all out hybrid war on China. Russia protects China’s flank and stabilizes Central Asia, keeps the region safe from color revolutions and safeguards the vital BRI corridor from Asia to Europe. If the US were to succeed in fracturing Russia or enacting regime change, that would mean the end of the BRI in Eurasia, which would mean China’s only Achilles heel would be exposed: its vulnerability to blockade and being cut off from the resources and markets it needs to maintain its enormous population and economy. Slowly but surely China’s might would wither away.
So in fact you should very much be concerned whether Russia survives as a state or not. China sure is. They recognize Russia’s importance and their pivotal role as an economic partner and military ally. At the present moment national bourgeois regimes are not the primary contradiction in the world.
Western imperialist global hegemony is the primary contradiction that is standing in the way of socialist revolutions today.
Russia, in its rivalry with West, is doomed to help oppressed states like Syria, CAR, now Donbass. Not sure they doing it because of sympathy to oppressed people, but I think it deserves critical support anyway.
Nazism is an existential threat. Russia might not be ‘good’ but I don’t really give a shit. We can whine about how bad Putin is when he’s done Mulching those fucking fascist freaks.
I agree with you, and I do think the invasion is a net positive, I just think we should be cautious about placing any trust in these countries and about their intentions
100%, he’s just a good guy for the time being
I don’t really thinks it’s a good idea to get caught up in idealist analysis regarding who is “good” and who is “bad”.
The American Empire must be destroyed - that’s the reality.
This.
“Good” and “Bad” only exist as far as the dominant hegemon’s definitions in that very moment; so really, I don’t see any “good” guys; just a whole lot of dead nazis, and a whole lot of brutally-inconvenienced and in-the-crossfire working folks.
Motherfuck America and all its interests, though; and that counts the little cockgoblins who were play-acting “government” in Kiev til they all fled.
I fail to believe any of the educated MLs here genuinely and fully believe that Putin’s honest intentions are de-nazification. We can speak honestly here.
Anyone who claims to understand what Putin’s motivations are for this action at this time is analyzing immaterially.
In other words, that’s “cringe”.
I’m just saying that I don’t care what Putins honest intentions are. Nazis are dying and that’s sweet as hell. Any other discussion comes secondary to that.
We can enjoy the good bits, but the situation is a wildfire which has already claimed tens of thousands of lives, and probably won’t be put out for years (as it started many years ago). US hegemony is facing a challenge it hasn’t seen in decades (real coolzone shit), and as materialists, it is important for us to understand the transformations which are taking place. At the same time, we cannot forget that revolutionary defeatists holding the Leninist line are among the most persecuted groups within both Russia and Ukraine, and that both states are responsible for systematic revanchist oppression of social and ethnic minorities.
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There are so many good reasons why we should critically support Russia against the west in the current political climate. The reality is very far from just capitalist country vs capitalist country as if it were in a vacuum with no other nuances.
Now we have to deal with these fucking posts on here too?
Yes, but I think it’s important to note that Russia is relatively weak compared to the West, so their power spread is not necessarily bad. These are not two equally strong powers wrestling with each other but a strong one trying to dominate the world and Russia is one of the few countries that can still effectively resist. I would therefore support Russia very, very critically because I see the greater evil in the West. But that does not mean that Russia is a remarkably great country and should get full support, they are nonetheless capitalist.
They are capitalist and their enemy is the white hegemonic core. So I think it is rather arrogant to lambaste Russia for societal and civilizational imperfection when it’s entire existence has been developed under genocidal threat from the American Empire
How can you say the west is the “greater” evil? These phenomenon are not even comparable. Russia is not part of the white hegemonic core.
To put them on the same scale is misleading and aids liberal ideology.
The West is THE evil.
Completely agree with you. I think it’s just important to not mindlessly support Russia in everything they do, they still have some capitalist imperialist interests. That’s critical support. But yeah you’re right
You are wrong, but its not surprising considering the nonstop propaganda about power of the u.s. military. Fact is that Russia has hypersonic missiles (10 times speed of sound), with range of 1000+ kilometers. These cant be intercepted in any way, and it seems they dont show up on radar. That means Russia could strike at any NATO base in Europe, or any aircraft carrier, with zero warning time. In military terms, the U.S. is simply powerless in a direct, conventional confrontation against Russia.
Missiles are nothing compared to economic imperialism
The moment Russia tries to let loose those rockets on an important state, they are getting invaded by a full offensive
Economic warfare is much more effective than military warfare in the age of MAD, and the West is unparalleled when it comes to that; The gap is so ridiculously large
Yes we can see how effective the sanctions are. Western countries are literally committing economic suicide, while Russia will simply reorient towards Asia.
You’re only looking at sanctions attempted against Russia and China, 2 very military strong states + vital pieces of the world economy
Economic imperialism has submitted countries attempted literally everywhere else. Even Japan at its peak fell to the US
Sanctions havent worked against a single country. Look at Cuba, DPRK, Iran, Venezuela etc.
Sanctions is a small part of imperialism and economic warfare
Also you can’t say sanctions haven’t greatly crippled all those countries above, because they have
All would be much greater threats without the sanctions placed on them
The question is, how many of those missiles they managed to produce. Russia’s industrial complex has been on decline since the collapse of the SU.
Its not the 90s anymore, Russian economy is doing quite well. Also it only takes one or two missiles to sink an aircraft carrier. Think of the psychological effect when it turns out that the u.s. military isnt invulnerable.
Relatively weak. Compared to the US almost every country is militarily weak.
The u.s. suffered a humiliating defeat in Afghanistan less than a year ago, against guys armed with AKs. Thats what i call weak.
It is not a bilateral conflict. USA and its allies have worked on creating conditions to cause tensions for decades now. They have also taken material actions against Russia which is not as aggravating as armed conflict but still has noticeable effects. The nation of Ukraine is just a pawn in this fight. Right now what I am hoping for is that peace talks and negotiations are held so that a cease fire can be issued ASAP. But this seems unlikely because it looks like the Ukrainian president has no qualms in shoving his constituents down the meat grinder. Hopefully it doesn’t turn into a slugfest where the only happy folks are the weapons manufacturers.
I think you are wrong, and are engaging in idealist analysis.
You cannot simply white wash away what it means to be a nation. This fantasy of “no war but class war” applied abstractly and universally does nothing to materially realize what is driving the conflict.
The reality of the world is that the American Empire must be destroyed. This means that certain realities constrict what events can occur towards that end.
Engaging with reality by saying “I don’t support either side, I support the working classes” does absolutely nothing to benefit the working class given that the entire reality is already submitted to the bloodthirsty grip of the American Empire.
That’s my view and many other MLs I know.
Saying that “the American Empire must be destroyed” sounds very idealistic to me. In a more materialist perspective, I would say that the empire is already in a strong decline (in large part caused by itself). The intention of Russia and China seems to be managing that decline in a way that protects themselves and others, like avoiding a nuclear war. So far they seem to do a good job.
Other than that, I fully agree with you.
I think it is obvious that Russia’s action in Ukraine is the consequence of Anerican decline. And not the other way around.
Not the people of both countries, but the working class. This conflict brings death and destruction to Ukrainian and Russian workers, and the economic war the West is waging to support Ukraine is causing extra turmoil to European AND Russian workers (also, I find the optimism about Russia being able to survive under sanctions somewhat unfounded). Only the likes of weapons manufacturers and gas speculators seem to profit from the situation. I cheer for every dead Nazi, but in the jingoistic fervor one needs to remember that it’s workers’ interests we’re fighting for, not the states’.
Russian soldiers in this war are all professional soldiers. And they are not proletarians. So, it is only the Ukrainian workers who are dying, but Ukrainian army and leadership are responsible for these deaths. They should’ve capitulated on the second day of this war if they really cared about their people.
The sanctions will definitelly fuck up the russian workers tho
Putin is the biggest anti-nazi alive.
Russia is the most important nation actually on war against imperialism.
They deserve our support.
Capitalist can never be real antifascist because they create the material conditions for them. Case in point USA in ww2. Fought the nazis and killed them, but never actually denazified europe bc fascism feeds of the estranged proletariat. So Putin might be sincere in his denazification motives but as long as the roots of the problem aren’t removed it will ultimately be useless. So NO putin is NOT the biggest anti fascist alive.
Next point. Yes, russia isn’t imperialist. However I don’t see how them stopping ukraine from joining NATO is actually fighting imperialism. Ukraine is just a pawn sacrifice to revitalize the NATO military industrial complex and this new cold war will once again cause many unnecessary proxy wars. Russia isn’t fighting imperialism its just fighting for its security interests.
Russia’s actions may not be for the sake of fighting imperialism but the end result is a hit to Western imperialism so their intention doesn’t really matter if you’re gonna talk about that
How is it a hit to western imperialism? Based on our current knowledge ukraine was never to actually join NATO. The west wanted russia to attack. At this point it is naive to think that the ukraine invasion was not in the interest of the west.
Pushing Russia and other countries (like India) closer to China + anti-imperialist bloc. Even Saudi Arabia declined talks from Biden but talked to Putin and China. Ofc it’ll take a lot longer to see how it all plays out but so far it doesn’t look bad
Comrades, this is what dropping the “critical” looks like. Don’t be this.
What did they say was wrong? It’s literally just facts, no opinions except for the last sentence. Do you think they don’t deserve support? You realize every single AES supports Russia right?
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“Both countries”, the USA is never mentioned. Piss off OP.
revolutionary defeatism?
I mean you’re not really wrong. At the end of the day, both Russia and Ukraine are reactionary states, ruled by people who profited off the period of chaos after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
Russia has an interest in crushing fascists in Ukraine right now, as revenge for 2014, but this does not magically turn them into a progressive force. Putin is really just angry Yeltsin, if he lived long enough to realize he was played for a fool, and the US is only happy if Russia bows down before them.
Ukraine is a bunch of oligarchs in a trench coat, allying with Nazis, because they aided in their (proper) takeover in 2014. But now they can’t back out, because, you know, Nazis are in the military. Zelenskyy is a comedian-oligarch who got elected by claiming to be the same person as the version of himself that he played on TV.
The people of both countries are trapped in a game they largely do not want to play, but unfortunately it’s not something they can change in an instant. A proletarian revolution isn’t organized overnight.
