The way libs just immediately became pro-Wagner is nuts
One of the core values of being a liberal is that you stand for absolutely nothing.
After months of “Well what about Wagner, there are Nazis on both sides!”, they’ve finally managed to praise both side’s Nazis.
Wagner got promoted to being good Nazis, in an instant. Now its over, back to bad Nazis.
Fickle bunch of cunts.
I wouldn’t exactly call this “fickle”, they consequently hold objectively reactionary posititions, as explained by Stalin in “Foundations of Leninism”, just the history moved a little too fast this time XD
They wanted to all along, just needed an excuse.
not so. they’re pro-anything that impedes russia, which includes infighting. if the us had another civil war, many of us would certainly support it.
If you think of it, it’s pretty impressive how liberals always manage, without even a sliver of understanding, recognize which side is objectively reactionary and follow it.
I know so many liberals in my personal life who claim they wouldn’t have supported Jim Crow or Confederates if they were alive in previous eras. They absolutely would have.
love me, love me, loooove me, I’m a liberaaal
They’re astonishingly quick to realise who might butter their bread, that’s for sure.
LMAO it’s like an instinct
Your opinion shows that you flex your empathy muscles
thats what libs do. turn on a dime when the signal is sent
“Wagner is weak and feeble, the Ukrainians counteroffensive will crush them…
Wagner is an elite, unstoppable fighting force that will storm Moscow and depose Putin!”
and western media is now reporting it, so safe to say the whole thing is over https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/06/24/world/russia-ukraine-news
the linked tweet is some scary rhetoric too.
Ukraine will definitely be able to protect Europe from any Russian forces, and it doesn’t matter who commands them. We will protect. The security of Europe’s eastern flank depends only on our defense.
Ukrainian soldiers, Ukrainian guns, Ukrainian tanks, Ukrainian missiles are all that protect Europe from such marches as we see today on Russian territory. And when we ask to give us the F-16 fighters or the ATACMS, we’re enhancing our common defense. Real defense.
We went from “Europe will protect Ukraine” to “Ukraine will protect Europe” really quick didn’t we? Are Ukrainians now aware that they’re just dying to maintain an union they’re not part of? Can’t the all-mighty Europeans protect themselves anymore?
Sounds awfully similar to polish messianism. Costed us millions of lives too.
So we went from “Biden defeated Russia without even trying!” to “Ukraine must defend Europe from Russia at all costs” in like 3 hours lol
From comments below: “Anybody who doesn’t support Ukraine needs to be arrested for treason, enough is enough.”
Nice.
Liberals devastated they can’t cheer for the man with swastika tattoos now
It hasn’t been a full day and this aged like milk 😂 https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/06/russia-civil-war-wagner-putin-coup/674517/
Of course its Anne Applebaum, that fucking demon
truly
Oof! That’s not even like a time capsule moment(prime example of Time Capsule moment is when in Rambo 4 they had the Pro-Muhahadeen thing) this is like a hourglass moment
A bit of a nitpick, but was it not in the 3rd part?
Yup
Lololol
they can’t cheer for the man with swastika tattoos now
Why, did Ukraine surrender? XD
W for Belarus, maybe? Have to wait and see I guess…
I’m very curious about what was “negotiated”. Allegedly Prigozhin wants the war to end, right?
Yeah, I’m curious as well.
I’m guessing Prigozhin just gets some more money and he’ll get away without severe charges.
Can’t mess with big bad Belarus
🇧🇾❤️
Спасибо Батя
Allegedly Prigozhin wants the war to end, right?
In a rather specific way, yeah. In a “let’s go back to the way things were” way. Which is a no-go.
Part of me would love for this just to have all been a ploy to fuck with the west. lol.
It would be absolutely hilarious, but Prigozhin going off the deep end is a much more likely explanation.
Well, the sanctions were withheld for the Wagner group during the supposed coup, so that could have been a means of transferring wealth to Russia to fight this war, maybe?
Okay, but seriously, someone needs to do something about Prigozhin. The guy has been out of control pretty much since February – anyone remember that disrespectful stunt with the bodies of dead servicemen?
The fact that this was allow to go as far as it did is definitely an embarrassment for Russia. Prigozhin should’ve been removed from Wagner a long time ago.
That Wagner leader better have a lot of caffeine. Not gonna be safe for him to sleep at night now…
b-b-b-but the offensive!
I just want to hear more about the terms of tue agreement
Yeah, I’m curious as well, I’m sure we’ll find out more in the coming weeks.
Prigozhin will be forced to cede Wagner Group, but as compensation gets to open a restaurant chain in Belarus called McTraitor’s (home of the Gorbachev Burger and the Eggs Benedict Arnold).
Are Yeltsin beer?
Yes, though it is 90% alcoholic and you can only buy it in kegs, which you have to drink in one sitting. Also while you’re drinking, your entire life savings get signed away to foreign actors.
It’s already over in the western media they were saying they were at the gates of Moscow/s
I love how they were salivating that there would be an actual coup
I wonder how many resources the US wasted rallying it’s military to get ready to ‘intervene’ to protect the righteous coup-ers. Or do you think they’re more level-headed than that in the high command?
US military command does appear to be more sober based on the articles they put out, but I’m sure US did burn some assets in Russia during this whole affair. I think the interesting outcome here was that pretty much all of the military and political class showed unity, so it’s pretty clear there isn’t much coup potential in Russia right now and that the political system is pretty stable.
There’s certainly a group of Pentagon generals who are against the war in Ukraine, based on pragmatism mostly. Some will regularly put out reports on how supporting Ukraine is a lost cause, and that it can’t be expected to take back any territory. A really small number pushed back against provoking Russia further, at the beginning of the war. Of course, nobody in the administration has taken up their message, and the MSM mostly keep these reports and declarations quiet. So most of them have either chosen to switch their rhetoric or stay quiet.
Aaaand that’s why I don’t comment on these things as they break. I shit you not, some people over here were “expecting”(as if they had the info for a half decent analysis) a civil war…
Exactly, I was pretty sure this would turn into a nothingburger, but I was like you know I’ll wait a day in case I’m completely misreading the situation. Apparently, a whole bunch of US “journalists” didn’t have this much restraint.
I don’t think restraint was a factor at all. It’s more likely they were tripping over themselves to write about China collapsing in the next 4 days. Wait…
I bet they already had those article written and just waiting for an opportunity to publish them. 😂
I figured this was some sort of show for more money, like a construction contractor rounding up the crew and showing up at the boss’ house at 3am because they aren’t paying enough and pissed everyone off.
Пригожин (Prigozhin) said that they would return to the front after completing their goal
He remembered he had left his oven on at home, hadn’t he?
And what is that goal? Genuine question. Is it the war or overthrowing Putin?
His goal is to overthrow the Russian Ministry of Defense afaik
I would rather not make any predictions as to what happens with Prigozhin, I’d love any opinions but I really can’t tell what will happen
RT article I just read said he’s going to leave the country, specifically to Belarus.
Probably just a peaceful exile.
Just looking at the sequence of events, it really looks like he seriously overestimated how much support he’d have. No one outside Wagner supported him, but once you cross the Rubicon there’s no going back. His choices were surrender and get hanged for treason, or die fighting - he knew he was fucked but had no exit.
Putin didn’t have any options either except to respond with zero tolerance for treason - any other response massively undermines his legitimacy. He couldn’t be the one to tell Prig that he could leave with his life if he stopped, but Lukashenko could ‘broker’ that kind of agreement without making the Russian government look weak. So Putin makes that call to Minsk and then suddenly Lukashenko’s offering that way out.
And thing is, it’s probably fine to leave Prigoshin alone. The man shot his shot and left with his tail between his legs. He’s lost all credibility with his power base, broke the trust of the Wagner mercs that were loyal to Russia and failed the ones that were loyal to him.
Agreed, this is probably the best case scenario.
Over or just postponed?
I don’t think anything is going to happen at this point. If anything, this demonstrated that pretty much everyone is behind the government.
How do you figure that? Wagner faced little to no resistance all the way up, they even had local police joining their convoy. Then, it took negotiations with Belarus to get them to stop. How does that show support for Putin’s government?
To me, it sounds like Wagner didn’t really want to shed Russian blood, they simply wanted guarantees of support in the form of supplies and ammunition. They apparently got what they wanted from their talks with the Belarusian President. However, that doesn’t change the fact that many people outside of Moscow were willing to either stand by and let pass or stand with Wagner.
Literally everyone of any importance in Russia basically told the Wagnerites to listen to Putin and stand down. Even people in the street went up to them and asked them to come to their senses. The fact that this didn’t get violent is a testament to both the maturity of the Russian society in general, and the confidence of the Russian government in being in complete control as well as their ability to remain calm and not react emotionally or rashly in a crisis.
This was literally the best possible outcome. It would have only played into the hands of Russia’s enemies for anyone to try and stop the Wagnerites using force. That would have escalated into a total shitshow and would have cost Russia valuable equipment and manpower. It was vital for everyone to remain calm and do nothing that could escalate into real violence. The fry cook got nothing except for being allowed to go into exile and not be imprisoned or killed…for now.
The unity that this little temper tantrum showed exists in Russia really pours cold water on any hopes the West may have had for a real coup. The West will of course try to salvage whatever they can out of it, they will try to twist the narrative to claim that this supposedly shows that Putin is weak because he didn’t crush the mutineers with force, because he showed leniency and restraint. But that little PR win will be short lived and is ultimately a poor consolation prize considering this basically confirmed that whatever hopes they may have had for their strategy of drawing out the war until just maybe some black swan event happens in Russia that will lead to the collapse of the war effort are essentially dead.
This was their best chance of trying to precipitate an internal fracture by exploiting a crisis created by what can only be described as the mental breakdown of a degenerate lowlife with an overinflated ego, all while Ukie psyops were working overtime playing up grievances and disseminating fakes inflating the appearance of serious internal conflicts, and they failed. It turned out that the overwhelming majority of Russians - including all government and military power structures, and even the majority of Wagner - didn’t take the bait and the whole gambit fizzled out.
The fact that the Kremlin prevailed so quickly and decisively, and most importantly without loss of life, and minimal property damage and disruption to civilian life, has just massively increased the stability of the state. Another beneficial side effect is that a number of western assets will also have been burned and many fifth columnists have exposed themselves. The FSB will be busy for the next few weeks looking very closely into anyone who was a bit too enthusiastic about supporting the mutiny. There will be purges that much is sure.
And finally, this whole episode will lead to the general enthusiasm for the concept of PMCs being somewhat lessened which is always a good thing. Mercenaries are yet again proven to be unreliable scum. Russia will almost certainly incorporate them much more tightly and with much greater oversight and control into the official armed forces now to prevent other similar episodes occurring in the future, which is good for discipline and general morale.
The Kremlin didn’t prevail though, Prigozhin backed down only after speaking to Lukashenko. And we don’t know the terms that this was ended under, but it would be a safe assumption that it would involve less integration of PMC’s (or at least Wagner) than what was already happening, as this was one of the main reasons they started their march north.
Do you seriously believe that Lukashenko is just some random third party here? This was a way to provide a way out for Prigozhin and diffuse the situation.
I’m certainly not saying Lukashenko isn’t in allegiance with the Kremlin, however it’s true to say that the Kremlin didn’t negotiate down the coup. Lukashenko did.
Also it’s most likely these terms were somewhat favourable to Wagner and don’t involve its complete integration into Russia’s military and directly under MoD control.
I’m really not sure what point you’re trying to make here to be honest. Kremlin found a way to resolve the situation without bloodshed, and where Prigozhin was removed from wagner while preserving wagner as an effective organization. Wagner is in fact now signing contracts with the MoD, so yes it is directly under the control of the MoD going forward. Basically, Russia managed to resolve the situation in the best way possible.
Luka was almost certainly acting on behalf of the Kremlin because for image purposes the Kremlin could not be seen to be the ones making the offer of leniency to traitors, they needed to be the bad cop to Lukashenko’s good cop. In the interest of avoiding a dangerous escalation Luka was used as an ostensible (but not really) “third party” to give the leaders of the mutiny who had backed themselves into a corner a way to still get out of this with their lives so that they wouldn’t fight to the death and take valuable rank and file soldiers with them.
We don’t know what the terms were exactly, we’ll have to wait and see, but from what has been openly stated at least there is no indication that any of the demands of the mutineers were conceded to, personnel changes were not even discussed (imo there was never a snowball’s chance in hell of the government agreeing to that, can you imagine how bad it would be for discipline to allow some uppity mercs to dictate who the commanders of the armed forces are? it would be an enormous violation of the chain of command!), and the integration of Wagner into the official armed forces has only accelerated.
On the whole i think this was unavoidable at some point because the contradiction of giving so much power and prominence to a mercenary group was always going to create conflict, but the way it was handled was just about the optimal way to do it and Russia will come out of this stronger. There will be some who will say that Russia should have foreseen this and not allowed it to come this far in the first place, and maybe that is true, but maybe it was also good it happened the way it did because it offers an opportunity for a more thorough cleanse and a more decisive break with previous policy toward PMCs.
More consolidation under the official state power structures is a good thing for when communists take over again. Mercenaries with too much influence and autonomy would be a nasty problem to deal with. And at the very least the image of Wagner and especially that of certain personalities involved with it is irreversibly tarnished in the eyes of the Russian public, and again i can’t say that that is bad, they were getting too full of themselves and starting to have a negative morale impact by denigrating the performance of the regular armed forces without whom they could never have even operated the way they did to begin with.
You make some good points but I don’t think a lack of an attack signals a lack of support. Wagner doesn’t seem like a junior to be trifled with, even if it was only a portion of the unit that headed to Moscow.
It doesn’t make much sense to me for e.g. police to go vigilante and try to stop Wagner on the way up. It would make sense for an order to organise a defence to be coordinated beyond ‘everyone between Ukraine and Moscow needs to individually try to stop Wagner’. If this had turned really bloody within Russia, I imagine the plan would be to ensure a quick victory and to plan for a defense where that was possible.
@TWeaK@lemm.ee at it again. Why do we have to have such people here if all they gonna do is propel their own shitty liberal shit all over the discussions? We are not lemmy but lemmygrad for a reason.
Lets not use the term “libtard” please, it is just an abelist slur portmanteaued to lib.
What liberal shit was I spreading in this thread?
You’re spreading nothing but bullshit, so how are you in any position to call me out?
Is that why you keep dumping and jumping all over the thread coz can’t see own shit?
Btw, edited those two words out that hurt you most.
Lol I didn’t even see the words you’re talking about, nor do I care.
I’ve replied to people that replied to me. Like you, when you revived a 2 week old conversation and commented directly to me. That’s kind of how conversations work, ya know?
/Edit: ahh wait, I think Lemmy notifies you of edits to replies. Maybe you’ll see a fresh comment in your inbox now. I saw a fresh comment, but strangely it appeared below some newer comment I hadn’t cleared; your comment had a newer date but appeared below that other comment. I originally ignored your comment, then you edited it somehow, then after I replied you edited it again to remove “libtard”. I don’t really care either way about that (except in the interest in finding lemmy bugs), but in making your first edit you were apparently summoning me. I still raise the question at the bottom, which you have left unanswered. /e
/Edit2: I should also point out that your first reply was made, then deleted. I downvoted that deleted reply because you downvoted me. Then you edited your reply to bring it back with:
Is that why you keep dumping and jumping all over the thread coz can’t see own shit?
Btw, edited those two words out that hurt you most.
which then gave me something to reply to here. So my guess is your edit was in response to my downvote, lol. /e2
You still haven’t told me what liberal shit I’ve been spreading. To be clear, that accusation is the bullshit I was referring to, because your accusation is baseless.
