A Chinese whistleblower exposes the brutal tactics used by police and guards at re-education centres in Xinjiang, saying "it's normal that some people die".
You’re very vocal about your belief that Uighur mistreatment in China is Western propaganda and are quick to discredit any source that says otherwise. As far as I’ve noticed you defend any jab at China in the same way.
Personally I’m very much against capitalism, the destruction its wrought on the world, and the countries that legislate in favor of short term gains for the wealthy over basic rights for the other 99.99%. The US is a shithole and the greatest offender of them all.
That said, just because I’m not on team America doesn’t mean I’m on team China. That stinks of “Republicans are terrible so I have to be a Democrat.” Both can suck and legitimately criticizing one doesn’t mean you’re in league with the other though I don’t get the vibe that you agree with that sentiment. You’re quick to say that anything negative said about China is propaganda.
In this particula case, I’m curious to what degree the information is false. Is it a 100% fabrication and there is absolutely no different treatment of Uighur Muslims by the Chinese government? Are Uighurs asked nicely to consider a different religious belief but nothing more? Are reeducation camps real, but Uighurs are treated really well there?
Please cite your sources and explain why they’re more credible that the sources that claim some fuckery is going on with the Chinese government in respect to Uighurs.
You make a comparison to republicans and democrats but republicans are not the target of a propaganda campaign and the democrats are not in a cold war against them currently.
If you agree there has been a rise of hate crimes against Asians in the USA then you have to agree the media was responsible for creating that environment.
In a cold war, it’s important to support the defending side. China is defending against US aggression, and even if you don’t like them you have to support them against this war otherwise you give arguments for further aggression. But you may not be a communist or even a socialist and think that it’s fine to disagree with both. If that’s the case, you have to grapple with how you came to these conclusions, and realise they’ve been fed to you by the mass media.
Doesn’t matter if it’s somewhat independent news like Buzzfeed (that “broke” the story that has been debunked several times) or entertainment conglomerates like CNN (that showed bibi getting his covid shot on live tv, can’t make this up). If they align with the State Department line even if they don’t realise it, they are still supporting further aggression towards China.
But since you say you are anticapitalist, then I’ll allow myself to be a bit more blunt. It’s not brave to claim “both sides are bad”, nor is it nuanced or deep. Especially coming from socialists or anticapitalists, because it gives a false impression of socialism to people. It tells the masses “look, even real socialists don’t support this and that!”. Nuance is not dismissing everything as bad, it’s exactly the opposite: finding the good even in less than ideal situations, that we can get inspiration from. Understanding the deeper ramifications of the opinions we have and what they mean for us and others.
Please cite your sources and explain why they’re more credible that the sources that claim some fuckery is going on with the Chinese government in respect to Uighurs.
Proponents of the genocide narrative have to cite their sources first if they want to be taken seriously. And so far it’s just Adrian Zenz rehashed different ways. This man does not even speak Chinese and the first and last time he went there was 3 months in 2009.
But the proof is there. Like how this “police officer” is anything but one. Or how in that same piece (the interview was just one part of it), CNN tried to claim a perfectly normal high school was a shadowy black site.
If such a thing was happening like the media is saying, they wouldn’t have trouble finding evidence. Yet every time they are pressed for it, they can’t find any. Where is the refugee crisis? Why are all the “camps” they found so far completely normal factories, schools, or vocational centres which the PRC has never lied about or misrepresented. You can read from their 2019 white paper the steps they are taking to combat ETIM presence in Xinjiang, which leads to bloody terrorist attacks. Why are there more mosques in Xinjiang alone than in the whole of Europe?
No, the truth is the United States is losing to the Chinese model. All empires come to an end, and the United States is just one in the long list. But instead of taking the L, losing some influence and playing on a level field with China (offering better loans than the BRI does would be a start), they resort to smear campaigns to try and extend their lifetime a bit more. The loss in Afghanistan was a monumental fuckup (20 years and millions of civilians killed and displaced just to end up where they started), but also showed how fragile US power is in 2021. But they can’t do that, because the USA is an oligarchy who obeys corporate interests, and those varying corporate interests have no obligation to be nice and promote development and peace.
I didn’t say I had any beliefs that needed shattering. I looked through the comments of the linked reddit AMA and some people talked about the spread of propaganda but that’s no more compelling than your comments saying the same thing. I’m not sure what I was supposed to take away from that and I hope that you have more substantial reasoning propping up your beliefs.
Back to my original question, in your estimation what is the level of misinformation about Uighur treatment by the CCP? Are Uighurs treated no differently than anyone else in China? Are Uighurs being detained or questioned due to their religious beliefs? Are reeducation camps real? I’m sincerely interested but calling news articles misinformation is not in itself compelling in any way.
The reeducation camps do certainly exist, but why do they exist and what happens in them? The official stance is that they are there to combat religious extremism (Xinjiang has a past of religiously motivated terrorism) and that people are educated in an effort to further that goal (not involving torture or anything in that direction). The fact that there’s a Chinese version of the situation is something to be taken into account.
Any claims of torture or forced labour generally come from individual witnesses like these linked by the OP. You can most certainly find people to support your claims if you have a large enough sample of potential witnesses. You can also find people who claim the opposite (https://yewtu.be/watch?v=p57qyMAySYc (obviously not enough to deny that torture and stuff doesn’t exist, but should be enough to support my point that witnesses that do not confirm it can be found)).
These are things that I think should be taken into consideration when discussing these issues, to remind us that we should also consider the claims of the other side.
Yes they are surveilled and policed for protection purposes, but the alternative is them becoming terrorists, like some of them did that committed attacks against mainland from 1993-2013.
Whoa whoa whoa. I think you and I have different interpretations of what constitutes “fucked up” because I think what you just said is absolutely fucked and you just casually threw it in the middle of a paragraph. And you worded it like it was fact: “the alternative is them becoming terrorists.” I mean, fuck man.
Are you a fan of the US government surveilling and policing Muslims because “the alternative is them becoming terrorists?” You sound like a talking head on Fox News: “If them Mooslums all wanna be terrorists then the gubment SHOULD be watching them!”
This is my overarching point: you spend a lot of time on here calling people uneducated and bigots and sockpuppets and actors of the state all in the name of unshakable support for a government… which is exactly what the far right in America does for a different government. You/they come off as angry, hostile, and combative. Anything you/they don’t believe is misinformation believed by sheep and you/they are the ultimate arbiters of truth. You weaken your own arguments by equating insult to education and debate.
Most of the times I see you in a thread, you’re stating an opinion as fact or being rude to someone who asks a question or has a different opinion. In your response to me above you said that I “believe blindly that Anglosphere global news press always spoke the truth, and they are the true authority” and that you “have a feeling [I] have made up your mind” because I asked for sources or citations. You “bet I also believe” a bunch of other US-state sponsored propaganda which is a blatent attempt at undermining a platform that I don’t hold and never expressed. I never presented an opinion outside of my hatred for capitalism - I simply asked for information and you jumped on the offensive.
I’m not anti-China. I’m anti-being rude and dismissive when someone asks for information or doesn’t agree with you. You’re a bully and you need to be aware of that. Look at your comment history and tell me I’m wrong.
You’re not changing any minds or any systems by insulting everyone who doesn’t tell you you’re right. You’re obviously angry much of the time, but you’re not using it constructively. Despite your intentions you do more harm than good to your cause.
Naw, you’re just a bully who thinks they’re the smartest person in every room. You don’t have an “authoritarian tone” - you’re not an authority. You’re not a leader and you’re not respected. You’ll never be any of those things while you treat everyone as if they’re below you.
You’re the bizarro version of a Trumper, always right, always angry, and ever more insulting when pressed for relevant facts. In fact, if you’re the official spokesperson for China, fuck that place. You make it sound about as appealing as Tucker Carlson’s America.
You’re wasting your life in comment sections screaming at the wall. People don’t learn or change their minds because an omnipresent username tells them how stupid they are. Your voice is one more angry buzz in an ocean of people who no longer know how to see humans behind each username.
For your own sake, consider a different way. You have to be miserable holding all that anger all the time. There’s no way you’re happy. You can have strong opinions and still not be rude or dismissive to others. In fact, I can guarantee that you’ll have exponentially more success getting your point across.
I bet you also believed HK rioters were protesting without USA senators giving the rioter leaders a visit…
This is denying any agency from Hong Kong residents. There were large crowds reacting to both specific offenses by the Hong Kong government and more general slights. Polls showed that at least their cause had public support. The instigating event was the introduction of a bill to provide for extradition to China. Because China lacks a strong rule of law, that exposes Hong Kong residents to the whims of China. The subsequent crackdowns, tightening of laws, and arrests of dissidents show that the fear of China’s influence was not unwarranted. It also makes the pro-reunification argument in Taiwan much weaker, since China has by its actions made clear that “one country two systems” was always a lie.
The thing is supposed eye witness testimonies are not really conclusive evidence. In the name of evidence of these supposed atrocities, all we have is analyses of satellite images, malicious misinterpretations of Xinjaing’s demographic data, and eyewitness testimonies of alleged victims who work closely with Washington funded organizations.
This policeman has been scrutinized too. Supposedly upon retiring, as a Chinese policeman you are supposed to submit your uniforms and gear. But Mr. Jiang still has his things at hand. Chinese literate people have also pointed out that the text on his badge is gibberish.
I can’t really say for sure whether the criticisms are true or not since I am not Chinese. But the fact still remains that for an allegation as grave as systemic incarceration and torture of an ethnic minority, something like this won’t fly. If you ever wonder why despite all this noise, countries are not taking any steps against China for what would be an atrocity were it true, it’s not because the business interests in the rest of the world are beholden to Chinese hegemony which has their tongues tied, but because there really isn’t any solid evidence for this.
All this coupled with the fact that the US has a long history of lying about countries it considers adversarial rings a lot of alarm bells for me.
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You’re very vocal about your belief that Uighur mistreatment in China is Western propaganda and are quick to discredit any source that says otherwise. As far as I’ve noticed you defend any jab at China in the same way.
Personally I’m very much against capitalism, the destruction its wrought on the world, and the countries that legislate in favor of short term gains for the wealthy over basic rights for the other 99.99%. The US is a shithole and the greatest offender of them all.
That said, just because I’m not on team America doesn’t mean I’m on team China. That stinks of “Republicans are terrible so I have to be a Democrat.” Both can suck and legitimately criticizing one doesn’t mean you’re in league with the other though I don’t get the vibe that you agree with that sentiment. You’re quick to say that anything negative said about China is propaganda.
In this particula case, I’m curious to what degree the information is false. Is it a 100% fabrication and there is absolutely no different treatment of Uighur Muslims by the Chinese government? Are Uighurs asked nicely to consider a different religious belief but nothing more? Are reeducation camps real, but Uighurs are treated really well there?
Please cite your sources and explain why they’re more credible that the sources that claim some fuckery is going on with the Chinese government in respect to Uighurs.
You make a comparison to republicans and democrats but republicans are not the target of a propaganda campaign and the democrats are not in a cold war against them currently.
If you agree there has been a rise of hate crimes against Asians in the USA then you have to agree the media was responsible for creating that environment.
In a cold war, it’s important to support the defending side. China is defending against US aggression, and even if you don’t like them you have to support them against this war otherwise you give arguments for further aggression. But you may not be a communist or even a socialist and think that it’s fine to disagree with both. If that’s the case, you have to grapple with how you came to these conclusions, and realise they’ve been fed to you by the mass media.
Doesn’t matter if it’s somewhat independent news like Buzzfeed (that “broke” the story that has been debunked several times) or entertainment conglomerates like CNN (that showed bibi getting his covid shot on live tv, can’t make this up). If they align with the State Department line even if they don’t realise it, they are still supporting further aggression towards China.
But since you say you are anticapitalist, then I’ll allow myself to be a bit more blunt. It’s not brave to claim “both sides are bad”, nor is it nuanced or deep. Especially coming from socialists or anticapitalists, because it gives a false impression of socialism to people. It tells the masses “look, even real socialists don’t support this and that!”. Nuance is not dismissing everything as bad, it’s exactly the opposite: finding the good even in less than ideal situations, that we can get inspiration from. Understanding the deeper ramifications of the opinions we have and what they mean for us and others.
Proponents of the genocide narrative have to cite their sources first if they want to be taken seriously. And so far it’s just Adrian Zenz rehashed different ways. This man does not even speak Chinese and the first and last time he went there was 3 months in 2009.
But the proof is there. Like how this “police officer” is anything but one. Or how in that same piece (the interview was just one part of it), CNN tried to claim a perfectly normal high school was a shadowy black site.
If such a thing was happening like the media is saying, they wouldn’t have trouble finding evidence. Yet every time they are pressed for it, they can’t find any. Where is the refugee crisis? Why are all the “camps” they found so far completely normal factories, schools, or vocational centres which the PRC has never lied about or misrepresented. You can read from their 2019 white paper the steps they are taking to combat ETIM presence in Xinjiang, which leads to bloody terrorist attacks. Why are there more mosques in Xinjiang alone than in the whole of Europe?
No, the truth is the United States is losing to the Chinese model. All empires come to an end, and the United States is just one in the long list. But instead of taking the L, losing some influence and playing on a level field with China (offering better loans than the BRI does would be a start), they resort to smear campaigns to try and extend their lifetime a bit more. The loss in Afghanistan was a monumental fuckup (20 years and millions of civilians killed and displaced just to end up where they started), but also showed how fragile US power is in 2021. But they can’t do that, because the USA is an oligarchy who obeys corporate interests, and those varying corporate interests have no obligation to be nice and promote development and peace.
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I didn’t say I had any beliefs that needed shattering. I looked through the comments of the linked reddit AMA and some people talked about the spread of propaganda but that’s no more compelling than your comments saying the same thing. I’m not sure what I was supposed to take away from that and I hope that you have more substantial reasoning propping up your beliefs.
Back to my original question, in your estimation what is the level of misinformation about Uighur treatment by the CCP? Are Uighurs treated no differently than anyone else in China? Are Uighurs being detained or questioned due to their religious beliefs? Are reeducation camps real? I’m sincerely interested but calling news articles misinformation is not in itself compelling in any way.
The reeducation camps do certainly exist, but why do they exist and what happens in them? The official stance is that they are there to combat religious extremism (Xinjiang has a past of religiously motivated terrorism) and that people are educated in an effort to further that goal (not involving torture or anything in that direction). The fact that there’s a Chinese version of the situation is something to be taken into account.
Any claims of torture or forced labour generally come from individual witnesses like these linked by the OP. You can most certainly find people to support your claims if you have a large enough sample of potential witnesses. You can also find people who claim the opposite (https://yewtu.be/watch?v=p57qyMAySYc (obviously not enough to deny that torture and stuff doesn’t exist, but should be enough to support my point that witnesses that do not confirm it can be found)).
These are things that I think should be taken into consideration when discussing these issues, to remind us that we should also consider the claims of the other side.
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Whoa whoa whoa. I think you and I have different interpretations of what constitutes “fucked up” because I think what you just said is absolutely fucked and you just casually threw it in the middle of a paragraph. And you worded it like it was fact: “the alternative is them becoming terrorists.” I mean, fuck man.
Are you a fan of the US government surveilling and policing Muslims because “the alternative is them becoming terrorists?” You sound like a talking head on Fox News: “If them Mooslums all wanna be terrorists then the gubment SHOULD be watching them!”
This is my overarching point: you spend a lot of time on here calling people uneducated and bigots and sockpuppets and actors of the state all in the name of unshakable support for a government… which is exactly what the far right in America does for a different government. You/they come off as angry, hostile, and combative. Anything you/they don’t believe is misinformation believed by sheep and you/they are the ultimate arbiters of truth. You weaken your own arguments by equating insult to education and debate.
Most of the times I see you in a thread, you’re stating an opinion as fact or being rude to someone who asks a question or has a different opinion. In your response to me above you said that I “believe blindly that Anglosphere global news press always spoke the truth, and they are the true authority” and that you “have a feeling [I] have made up your mind” because I asked for sources or citations. You “bet I also believe” a bunch of other US-state sponsored propaganda which is a blatent attempt at undermining a platform that I don’t hold and never expressed. I never presented an opinion outside of my hatred for capitalism - I simply asked for information and you jumped on the offensive.
I’m not anti-China. I’m anti-being rude and dismissive when someone asks for information or doesn’t agree with you. You’re a bully and you need to be aware of that. Look at your comment history and tell me I’m wrong.
You’re not changing any minds or any systems by insulting everyone who doesn’t tell you you’re right. You’re obviously angry much of the time, but you’re not using it constructively. Despite your intentions you do more harm than good to your cause.
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Naw, you’re just a bully who thinks they’re the smartest person in every room. You don’t have an “authoritarian tone” - you’re not an authority. You’re not a leader and you’re not respected. You’ll never be any of those things while you treat everyone as if they’re below you.
You’re the bizarro version of a Trumper, always right, always angry, and ever more insulting when pressed for relevant facts. In fact, if you’re the official spokesperson for China, fuck that place. You make it sound about as appealing as Tucker Carlson’s America.
You’re wasting your life in comment sections screaming at the wall. People don’t learn or change their minds because an omnipresent username tells them how stupid they are. Your voice is one more angry buzz in an ocean of people who no longer know how to see humans behind each username.
For your own sake, consider a different way. You have to be miserable holding all that anger all the time. There’s no way you’re happy. You can have strong opinions and still not be rude or dismissive to others. In fact, I can guarantee that you’ll have exponentially more success getting your point across.
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I actually looked into that but didn’t see the option, at least not using the Lemmur app. Is the option available in the browser?
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This is denying any agency from Hong Kong residents. There were large crowds reacting to both specific offenses by the Hong Kong government and more general slights. Polls showed that at least their cause had public support. The instigating event was the introduction of a bill to provide for extradition to China. Because China lacks a strong rule of law, that exposes Hong Kong residents to the whims of China. The subsequent crackdowns, tightening of laws, and arrests of dissidents show that the fear of China’s influence was not unwarranted. It also makes the pro-reunification argument in Taiwan much weaker, since China has by its actions made clear that “one country two systems” was always a lie.
I think this is a red herring fallacy
if you believe that Sky News just makes stuff like this up then you are deluded
Sky news is the far-right / fox news outlet of Australia. Finding things they don’t lie about would be more difficult.
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I don’t know enough about this issue to actually make a comment on it.
The thing is supposed eye witness testimonies are not really conclusive evidence. In the name of evidence of these supposed atrocities, all we have is analyses of satellite images, malicious misinterpretations of Xinjaing’s demographic data, and eyewitness testimonies of alleged victims who work closely with Washington funded organizations.
This policeman has been scrutinized too. Supposedly upon retiring, as a Chinese policeman you are supposed to submit your uniforms and gear. But Mr. Jiang still has his things at hand. Chinese literate people have also pointed out that the text on his badge is gibberish.
I can’t really say for sure whether the criticisms are true or not since I am not Chinese. But the fact still remains that for an allegation as grave as systemic incarceration and torture of an ethnic minority, something like this won’t fly. If you ever wonder why despite all this noise, countries are not taking any steps against China for what would be an atrocity were it true, it’s not because the business interests in the rest of the world are beholden to Chinese hegemony which has their tongues tied, but because there really isn’t any solid evidence for this.
All this coupled with the fact that the US has a long history of lying about countries it considers adversarial rings a lot of alarm bells for me.
I don’t know I feel like this is a conspiracy theory to be honest.
I’m not sure why you’ve been down-voted for saying that you don’t have enough information to comment.
I guess we’ve gotten to the point where it’s gauche to let ignorance stop you from passionately arguing about international news.