A Chinese whistleblower exposes the brutal tactics used by police and guards at re-education centres in Xinjiang, saying "it's normal that some people die".
I didn’t say I had any beliefs that needed shattering. I looked through the comments of the linked reddit AMA and some people talked about the spread of propaganda but that’s no more compelling than your comments saying the same thing. I’m not sure what I was supposed to take away from that and I hope that you have more substantial reasoning propping up your beliefs.
Back to my original question, in your estimation what is the level of misinformation about Uighur treatment by the CCP? Are Uighurs treated no differently than anyone else in China? Are Uighurs being detained or questioned due to their religious beliefs? Are reeducation camps real? I’m sincerely interested but calling news articles misinformation is not in itself compelling in any way.
The reeducation camps do certainly exist, but why do they exist and what happens in them? The official stance is that they are there to combat religious extremism (Xinjiang has a past of religiously motivated terrorism) and that people are educated in an effort to further that goal (not involving torture or anything in that direction). The fact that there’s a Chinese version of the situation is something to be taken into account.
Any claims of torture or forced labour generally come from individual witnesses like these linked by the OP. You can most certainly find people to support your claims if you have a large enough sample of potential witnesses. You can also find people who claim the opposite (https://yewtu.be/watch?v=p57qyMAySYc (obviously not enough to deny that torture and stuff doesn’t exist, but should be enough to support my point that witnesses that do not confirm it can be found)).
These are things that I think should be taken into consideration when discussing these issues, to remind us that we should also consider the claims of the other side.
If you cannot believe it from the mouth of a US Colonel himself, you can believe all kind of manufacturing consent fake news you want to. I bet you also believed HK rioters were protesting without USA senators giving the rioter leaders a visit, and probably also that Iraq had WMDs, the Nayirah testimony was correct, Yeomin Park’s $40K testimony against North Korea was correct, Afghanistan war was justified, Vietnamese suffering from Agent Orange effects was justified and so on. Why did I say this? Because like you, I used to believe blindly that Anglosphere global news press always spoke the truth, and they are the true authority.
Back to your original questions. Western propaganda outlets never enquired the “suffering” Uyghurs themselves on ground, and BBC even refused an Imam’s interview. Yes they are surveilled and policed for protection purposes, but the alternative is them becoming terrorists, like some of them did that committed attacks against mainland from 1993-2013. Populations in a genocide do not grow, which it surprisingly did in Xinjiang. Uyghurs occasionally get questioned, but not detained. Reeducation camps are vocational training centers that are opted into, and are not concentration camp le Nazi gulags.
The issue with your question, when you ask about treatment of Uyghurs, is that other ethnicities do not face the same Salafist Mujahideen radicalisation threats as Uyghurs do.
I could talk a lot more on this issue if you want to, but I have a feeling you have made up your mind. I am still guessing you might want to take a deeper dive, so I will leave this for you, so you can learn a lot more in 2 hours. https://peertube.tux.ovh/w/665e238a-dd9d-4529-aadd-99404cb2c094
Yes they are surveilled and policed for protection purposes, but the alternative is them becoming terrorists, like some of them did that committed attacks against mainland from 1993-2013.
Whoa whoa whoa. I think you and I have different interpretations of what constitutes “fucked up” because I think what you just said is absolutely fucked and you just casually threw it in the middle of a paragraph. And you worded it like it was fact: “the alternative is them becoming terrorists.” I mean, fuck man.
Are you a fan of the US government surveilling and policing Muslims because “the alternative is them becoming terrorists?” You sound like a talking head on Fox News: “If them Mooslums all wanna be terrorists then the gubment SHOULD be watching them!”
This is my overarching point: you spend a lot of time on here calling people uneducated and bigots and sockpuppets and actors of the state all in the name of unshakable support for a government… which is exactly what the far right in America does for a different government. You/they come off as angry, hostile, and combative. Anything you/they don’t believe is misinformation believed by sheep and you/they are the ultimate arbiters of truth. You weaken your own arguments by equating insult to education and debate.
Most of the times I see you in a thread, you’re stating an opinion as fact or being rude to someone who asks a question or has a different opinion. In your response to me above you said that I “believe blindly that Anglosphere global news press always spoke the truth, and they are the true authority” and that you “have a feeling [I] have made up your mind” because I asked for sources or citations. You “bet I also believe” a bunch of other US-state sponsored propaganda which is a blatent attempt at undermining a platform that I don’t hold and never expressed. I never presented an opinion outside of my hatred for capitalism - I simply asked for information and you jumped on the offensive.
I’m not anti-China. I’m anti-being rude and dismissive when someone asks for information or doesn’t agree with you. You’re a bully and you need to be aware of that. Look at your comment history and tell me I’m wrong.
You’re not changing any minds or any systems by insulting everyone who doesn’t tell you you’re right. You’re obviously angry much of the time, but you’re not using it constructively. Despite your intentions you do more harm than good to your cause.
Yes they are surveilled and policed for protection purposes, but the alternative is them becoming terrorists, like some of them did that committed attacks against mainland from 1993-2013.
Whoa whoa whoa. I think you and I have different interpretations of what constitutes “fucked up” because I think what you just said is absolutely fucked and you just casually threw it in the middle of a paragraph. And you worded it like it was fact: “the alternative is them becoming terrorists.” I mean, fuck man.
Are you a fan of the US government surveilling and policing Muslims because “the alternative is them becoming terrorists?” You sound like a talking head on Fox News: “If them Mooslums all wanna be terrorists then the gubment SHOULD be watching them!”
There is a BIG difference. China did not fund or give birth to white supremacist domestic terrorists in USA, but USA gave birth to ISIS, Al Qaeda, ETIM and all these terrorist organisations and funded Pakistan for an eternity, and is friends with Saudi (used them for supplying chemicals for Yemen genocide) and uses Israel as vassal state for cyberwar globally, to fuel wars in MEA and so on. It just so happens that the North West China region and MEA is almost the same part of Asia where all this Mujahideen extremism happens, and you do not know how Salafist Wahhabis work to radicalise regular impoverished and/or poor hopeless citizens in MEA to become terrorists.
you spend a lot of time on here calling people uneducated and bigots and sockpuppets and actors of the state all in the name of unshakable support for a government… which is exactly what the far right in America does for a different government. You/they come off as angry, hostile, and combative. Anything you/they don’t believe is misinformation believed by sheep and you/they are the ultimate arbiters of truth. You weaken your own arguments by equating insult to education and debate.
Is this the victim card? REALLY? I am not calling random people random things. With the exception of one recent incident with Helix (because like the idiot I am, I forgot to take a longer screenshot), I have ALWAYS provided proof for each and every single claim I have made.
You’re a bully and you need to be aware of that. Look at your comment history and tell me I’m wrong.
I have an authoritarian tone because I am trying to get facts across. Being a cotton swab like person leads to everyone just stamping their feet all over you. In fact, you are doing exactly that by calling me a bully for telling simple facts of the present era. You are not refuting anything I am saying, just repeating to me a false viewpoint of the same Western propaganda machine that manufactures consent for conflict and war, so that they can benefit from the weapon selling and the division created amongst competitor countries from rising up ever again.
FYI, this is also the same machinery that has been spying over the post WW2 world since 1969/70, and conquering the world with divide and conquer imperialism since the past 300-400 years. If you feel this is insult to you, then you need to learn to self critique instead of unknowingly being a tool for Western imperialist machinery.
Naw, you’re just a bully who thinks they’re the smartest person in every room. You don’t have an “authoritarian tone” - you’re not an authority. You’re not a leader and you’re not respected. You’ll never be any of those things while you treat everyone as if they’re below you.
You’re the bizarro version of a Trumper, always right, always angry, and ever more insulting when pressed for relevant facts. In fact, if you’re the official spokesperson for China, fuck that place. You make it sound about as appealing as Tucker Carlson’s America.
You’re wasting your life in comment sections screaming at the wall. People don’t learn or change their minds because an omnipresent username tells them how stupid they are. Your voice is one more angry buzz in an ocean of people who no longer know how to see humans behind each username.
For your own sake, consider a different way. You have to be miserable holding all that anger all the time. There’s no way you’re happy. You can have strong opinions and still not be rude or dismissive to others. In fact, I can guarantee that you’ll have exponentially more success getting your point across.
I bet you also believed HK rioters were protesting without USA senators giving the rioter leaders a visit…
This is denying any agency from Hong Kong residents. There were large crowds reacting to both specific offenses by the Hong Kong government and more general slights. Polls showed that at least their cause had public support. The instigating event was the introduction of a bill to provide for extradition to China. Because China lacks a strong rule of law, that exposes Hong Kong residents to the whims of China. The subsequent crackdowns, tightening of laws, and arrests of dissidents show that the fear of China’s influence was not unwarranted. It also makes the pro-reunification argument in Taiwan much weaker, since China has by its actions made clear that “one country two systems” was always a lie.
I didn’t say I had any beliefs that needed shattering. I looked through the comments of the linked reddit AMA and some people talked about the spread of propaganda but that’s no more compelling than your comments saying the same thing. I’m not sure what I was supposed to take away from that and I hope that you have more substantial reasoning propping up your beliefs.
Back to my original question, in your estimation what is the level of misinformation about Uighur treatment by the CCP? Are Uighurs treated no differently than anyone else in China? Are Uighurs being detained or questioned due to their religious beliefs? Are reeducation camps real? I’m sincerely interested but calling news articles misinformation is not in itself compelling in any way.
The reeducation camps do certainly exist, but why do they exist and what happens in them? The official stance is that they are there to combat religious extremism (Xinjiang has a past of religiously motivated terrorism) and that people are educated in an effort to further that goal (not involving torture or anything in that direction). The fact that there’s a Chinese version of the situation is something to be taken into account.
Any claims of torture or forced labour generally come from individual witnesses like these linked by the OP. You can most certainly find people to support your claims if you have a large enough sample of potential witnesses. You can also find people who claim the opposite (https://yewtu.be/watch?v=p57qyMAySYc (obviously not enough to deny that torture and stuff doesn’t exist, but should be enough to support my point that witnesses that do not confirm it can be found)).
These are things that I think should be taken into consideration when discussing these issues, to remind us that we should also consider the claims of the other side.
Did you not notice the debunking of fabricated evidence, and that how the origin sources of the Uyghur genocide claims usually come down to Adrian Zenz (who was with Sintash at RFA office) and CHRD? Do you not notice US Colonel Lawrence Wilkinson explaining in a speech why they were at Afghanistan?
If you cannot believe it from the mouth of a US Colonel himself, you can believe all kind of manufacturing consent fake news you want to. I bet you also believed HK rioters were protesting without USA senators giving the rioter leaders a visit, and probably also that Iraq had WMDs, the Nayirah testimony was correct, Yeomin Park’s $40K testimony against North Korea was correct, Afghanistan war was justified, Vietnamese suffering from Agent Orange effects was justified and so on. Why did I say this? Because like you, I used to believe blindly that Anglosphere global news press always spoke the truth, and they are the true authority.
Back to your original questions. Western propaganda outlets never enquired the “suffering” Uyghurs themselves on ground, and BBC even refused an Imam’s interview. Yes they are surveilled and policed for protection purposes, but the alternative is them becoming terrorists, like some of them did that committed attacks against mainland from 1993-2013. Populations in a genocide do not grow, which it surprisingly did in Xinjiang. Uyghurs occasionally get questioned, but not detained. Reeducation camps are vocational training centers that are opted into, and are not concentration camp le Nazi gulags.
The issue with your question, when you ask about treatment of Uyghurs, is that other ethnicities do not face the same Salafist Mujahideen radicalisation threats as Uyghurs do.
I could talk a lot more on this issue if you want to, but I have a feeling you have made up your mind. I am still guessing you might want to take a deeper dive, so I will leave this for you, so you can learn a lot more in 2 hours. https://peertube.tux.ovh/w/665e238a-dd9d-4529-aadd-99404cb2c094
Whoa whoa whoa. I think you and I have different interpretations of what constitutes “fucked up” because I think what you just said is absolutely fucked and you just casually threw it in the middle of a paragraph. And you worded it like it was fact: “the alternative is them becoming terrorists.” I mean, fuck man.
Are you a fan of the US government surveilling and policing Muslims because “the alternative is them becoming terrorists?” You sound like a talking head on Fox News: “If them Mooslums all wanna be terrorists then the gubment SHOULD be watching them!”
This is my overarching point: you spend a lot of time on here calling people uneducated and bigots and sockpuppets and actors of the state all in the name of unshakable support for a government… which is exactly what the far right in America does for a different government. You/they come off as angry, hostile, and combative. Anything you/they don’t believe is misinformation believed by sheep and you/they are the ultimate arbiters of truth. You weaken your own arguments by equating insult to education and debate.
Most of the times I see you in a thread, you’re stating an opinion as fact or being rude to someone who asks a question or has a different opinion. In your response to me above you said that I “believe blindly that Anglosphere global news press always spoke the truth, and they are the true authority” and that you “have a feeling [I] have made up your mind” because I asked for sources or citations. You “bet I also believe” a bunch of other US-state sponsored propaganda which is a blatent attempt at undermining a platform that I don’t hold and never expressed. I never presented an opinion outside of my hatred for capitalism - I simply asked for information and you jumped on the offensive.
I’m not anti-China. I’m anti-being rude and dismissive when someone asks for information or doesn’t agree with you. You’re a bully and you need to be aware of that. Look at your comment history and tell me I’m wrong.
You’re not changing any minds or any systems by insulting everyone who doesn’t tell you you’re right. You’re obviously angry much of the time, but you’re not using it constructively. Despite your intentions you do more harm than good to your cause.
There is a BIG difference. China did not fund or give birth to white supremacist domestic terrorists in USA, but USA gave birth to ISIS, Al Qaeda, ETIM and all these terrorist organisations and funded Pakistan for an eternity, and is friends with Saudi (used them for supplying chemicals for Yemen genocide) and uses Israel as vassal state for cyberwar globally, to fuel wars in MEA and so on. It just so happens that the North West China region and MEA is almost the same part of Asia where all this Mujahideen extremism happens, and you do not know how Salafist Wahhabis work to radicalise regular impoverished and/or poor hopeless citizens in MEA to become terrorists.
Is this the victim card? REALLY? I am not calling random people random things. With the exception of one recent incident with Helix (because like the idiot I am, I forgot to take a longer screenshot), I have ALWAYS provided proof for each and every single claim I have made.
I have an authoritarian tone because I am trying to get facts across. Being a cotton swab like person leads to everyone just stamping their feet all over you. In fact, you are doing exactly that by calling me a bully for telling simple facts of the present era. You are not refuting anything I am saying, just repeating to me a false viewpoint of the same Western propaganda machine that manufactures consent for conflict and war, so that they can benefit from the weapon selling and the division created amongst competitor countries from rising up ever again.
FYI, this is also the same machinery that has been spying over the post WW2 world since 1969/70, and conquering the world with divide and conquer imperialism since the past 300-400 years. If you feel this is insult to you, then you need to learn to self critique instead of unknowingly being a tool for Western imperialist machinery.
Naw, you’re just a bully who thinks they’re the smartest person in every room. You don’t have an “authoritarian tone” - you’re not an authority. You’re not a leader and you’re not respected. You’ll never be any of those things while you treat everyone as if they’re below you.
You’re the bizarro version of a Trumper, always right, always angry, and ever more insulting when pressed for relevant facts. In fact, if you’re the official spokesperson for China, fuck that place. You make it sound about as appealing as Tucker Carlson’s America.
You’re wasting your life in comment sections screaming at the wall. People don’t learn or change their minds because an omnipresent username tells them how stupid they are. Your voice is one more angry buzz in an ocean of people who no longer know how to see humans behind each username.
For your own sake, consider a different way. You have to be miserable holding all that anger all the time. There’s no way you’re happy. You can have strong opinions and still not be rude or dismissive to others. In fact, I can guarantee that you’ll have exponentially more success getting your point across.
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I actually looked into that but didn’t see the option, at least not using the Lemmur app. Is the option available in the browser?
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This is denying any agency from Hong Kong residents. There were large crowds reacting to both specific offenses by the Hong Kong government and more general slights. Polls showed that at least their cause had public support. The instigating event was the introduction of a bill to provide for extradition to China. Because China lacks a strong rule of law, that exposes Hong Kong residents to the whims of China. The subsequent crackdowns, tightening of laws, and arrests of dissidents show that the fear of China’s influence was not unwarranted. It also makes the pro-reunification argument in Taiwan much weaker, since China has by its actions made clear that “one country two systems” was always a lie.