Imagine if you gave almost every old person in this country a glass of water. The day after lots of them would be dead! Because old people die.

@k_o_t
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go to /r/nursing and sort by top of all time and just read the posts and the respective top comments, most of it is about covid patients and how absolutely awful the situation is

most people think that getting covid is a black and white case of either dying with a chance of around 2 % or surviving and being perfectly fine, when in reality you might get permanent lung damage, making a walk from your bed to the kitchen seem like running a maraphon

or get brain damage from hypoxia, so that you get what’s called brain fog, meaning that your consciousness will be clouded for an unknown time

or any number of yet undescovered side effects

tldr iirc there is a small chance to get sick from a vaccine, but there is an exponentially higher change to get sick without a vaccine and suffer much worse consequences

मुक्त
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Covid vaccination is different from other vaccinations as being vaccinated doesn’t mean that you have become immune to covid, or that these “side effects” won’t happen. Thousands of double vaccinated people have already died from covid.

Lmao that’s how all vaccines work. Don’t spread misinformation.

@k_o_t
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that’s how all of vaccines work: you can still get sick and suffer side effects even if you’re vaccined, but the chances are significantly reduced, which is the whole point

मुक्त
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The covid vaccines actually increase the chances of getting covid in certain populations. Check last two columns of Table 2 on page 13 of 41st weekly review of covid vaccination for instance. Not how vaccines are expected to work.

Compare this with say polio vaccine which reduces chances of catching to less than 0.1%.

@camccar
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Or if you just arent obese and eat trash all day youll be fine with covid. Just be sure to get sunlight

@k_o_t
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literally half to two thirds of the population in first world countries fall into this categories, and even if you don’t, just because the rists are lower doesn’t mean you still can’t suffer any number of terrible consequences from covid

@camccar
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The proper response is to make people less obese, in 18 months we’ve had time to do that but public policy has never emphasized that. Atleast tell everyone to get sunlight. You literally just have to lay down half naked infront of the sun. It’s free.

But to your point, I have been trying to get covid for a year. Every single time I find out a friend or family member has Covid I come bring them gifts and I can’t get it. Some people are naturally immune I guess.

Kinetix
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And the next Darwin award candidate is…

@glorpster@feddit.de
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Here’s what I usually answer:

If you look at a large section of the population for a timespan of say a month or so, a certain amount of people will inevitably die during that timespan, due to old age, disease etc. So what would happen if you took like a million people, injected them with saline solution or something else completely harmless and watched those one million people for a month? Some of them would die! Due to the mentioned old age, disease etc… So if you vaccinate millions of millions of people, a certain number of people dying relatively shortly after getting vaccinated isn’t unusual or neccessary a sign of harm - it’s simply expected.

So if you want to figure out how many people actually die due to vaccination, you first have to subtract the number of people who would have died anyways. (To do that you look at the number of vaccinated people and record the number of people who died shortly after vaccination and then look at a group of similar makeup in terms of age, health etc and record how many people died in that group during the same timeframe. Then you compare the numbers.) And if you do that, you will find that the number of vaccine associated deaths is extremely small and the the number of deaths in the non-vaccinated group is much higher in total, because way more people die due to Covid than due to the vaccination.

मुक्त
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Your argument would have been strong if mortality data corraborated it. But there is a problem - not one nation has published relevant data for 2020. In fact, for my nation, 2017 is the last year for which good data is available.

@glorpster@feddit.de
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I have no idea what you are talking about. Both general mortity statistics leading up to 2019 and statistics about death after Covid vaccination are widely available, at least for the US and many other countries. Mortality rates, if there’s no worldwide pandemic or anything like that going on, are fairly stable throughout the years. You don’t need to have the data of unvaccinated people specifically in 2020 to make that comparison, especially since the effect is clear enough that miniscule discrepancies in the mortality rate data don’t affect it.

@pingveno
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From what I’ve heard, this misconception comes from the CDC’s Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). Pretty much any issues that come up after a vaccination are reported to the system. Using that data, the CDC can detect side effects with extremely low rates of occurrence. Since vaccines are administered to the entire population, it is critical to detect these issues because even problems that are unlikely to arise from an individual dose will result in widespread harm.

Unfortunately, people who don’t have an intuitive grasp of statistics have full access to VAERS. They will cry foul when they see thousands of deaths without realizing that those deaths have no relationship to the vaccine nor any particular similarity to each other. They are simply records that are there to ferret out any issues that were not detected in trials. That then goes viral on the Internet without even less context and reaches people like your friend.

@camccar
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I dont undersyand your point. The Vaers db has more adverse reaction reports this year than the last 19 years combined. We certainly did vaccinate more this year but nearly all babies get vaccinated. So the only logical conclusion is that these emerency use vaccines have a higher rate of death. And that makes since. Most vaccines if anyone dies from it its due to an allergic reaction. These vaccins cause miocardidis (cant spell) and sometimes heart attacks.

Kinetix
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That’s not what it means at all. Go read the FAQ on VAERS. Go talk to your doctor.

@roastpotatothief
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First of all it doesn’t matter if you win this argument. Herd immunity does not require 100% of people to be vaccinated. That’s why it’s such solid public health policy, and why vaccine mandates are so controversial. It doesn’t matter one iota if this one guy and all his friends don’t get vaccinated.

Seconly, the first data I found was this.

As of January 8, 2021, 55 deaths were reported, and the mortality rate of COVID-19 vaccination was 8.2 per million population. A total of 37 deaths were reported among long-term care facility residents, and the mortality rate was 53.4 per million population. Top reported comorbidities associated with deaths included hypertension, dementia, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), diabetes, and heart failure. In addition, dementia was more likely to be associated with deaths vaccinated at long-term care facilities than at other locations.

Fairly insignificant then. It’s less than the chance of being murdered each year (for an englishman). Less than the chance of randomly dying for some other reason that day. And it’s less than the chance of dying from running a marathon. Source

I didn’t do the sums, but I’d wager it’s also less than the chance of contracting and dying from covid.

Unless you are demented or diabetic etc, you’re probably fine. Anyway, it’s a free choice he can make. None of anyone else’s business, unless he’s unfortunate enough to live in Italy.

@cooncatsarecool
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It does matter

@roastpotatothief
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?

मुक्त
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Here is a twitter thread listing deaths of vaccinated Indians due to medical issues.

Just Indians alone.

@roastpotatothief
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i give statistics from an actual study, and you respond with a list of anecdotes?

you are the problem. you can convince yourself of anything, just by cherry picking the right anecdotes. you’ll believe exactly what you want to believe, with no consideration for the truth.

मुक्त
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Dude, that pretty much proves you are parrotong what you have been fed by authorities.

What I gave you is much more than the statistical aggregates you are talking about. Newspapers have published the names, age, etc for each of them.

And I don’t know what is your exposure to the field of statistics, but 5000 “anecdotes” are statistically significant.

Kinetix
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Antivaxxer arguments are so incredibly sad.

“You are parrotong(sp) what you have been fed by authorities” - Right - they’re authorities because they’re the top relevant medical experts and scientists involved. Reading a twitter thread doesn’t make you an authority. See the difference? What you are doing is parroting (spelling matters) typical antivax conjecture.

What you gave is, as previously mentioned, anecdotes. You could provide a million of them, they’re still anecdotes.

Exposure to the field of statistics? Would you like to talk to the experts involved with VAERS and the like so you can actually get educated about what they find significant?

मुक्त
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They are authorities, because they are authorities. Good one. I am really convinced now.

Forget twitter. Mind reading something from the authorities? Check table 2, page number 13, of 41st week review of vaccination by PHE. Last two columns specifically. It states, statistically, that if you are over 30, and vaccinated, you are more likely to to get covid positive than if you are unvaccinated.

And remember, I am not yet referring you to any “antivax conjecture”.

Kinetix
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And yet another problem with antivaxxers - refusal to read unless it fits their narrative.

Sorry, try again.

मुक्त
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“Narrative” doesn’t come from anti-establishment folks like me. Our job is to point to holes in the narrative. Ontology 101.

And I don’t need to “try” anything, including vaccines. You can take your jab. Or jabs. Mix and match them, whatever.

Kinetix
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“Narrative” doesn’t come from anti-establishment folks like me. Our job is to point to holes in the narrative. Ontology 101.

“Contrarian” is the word you’re looking for.

@roastpotatothief
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Is being contrarian a good or a bad thing? Sounds like you think it’s a bad thing.

I used to think it’s neither. Some people naturally go with the crowd, some go against it. Going against it doesn’t make you a free thinker, it’s just a different tendency.

But now I think that being a contrarian starts off that way, as just a neutral natural tendency. But it forces you to frequently think deeply about things, because you keep getting in arguments. If you agree with most people you never have to think deeply about anything.

So now I think contrarians are crucial to society, and we should all try to be contradict our natures by engaging seriously (not condescendingly) with them. It foces us to also think deeply about things.

मुक्त
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Skeptic.

@Gmork
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Having a healthy dose of skepticism is always a good thing. It leads to asking questions and hopefully getting answers when applied EQUALLY to both sides of the argument.

The issue here is that you are looking for AFFIRMATION rather than INFORMATION.

मुक्त
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I am looking for neither. Check my other replies. I am the one INFORMING, supplying bulk of primary information from good quality sources.

@sibachian
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so what you’re saying is that all medicine and healthcare is a racket. gotcha.

मुक्त
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Certainly not all.

@sibachian
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Of course. Just this one, where there are thousands of researchers and doctors in agreement.

मुक्त
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It takes one Galelio to prove entire church wrong, even if church takes 4 centuries to accept that he was right all along.

If argument by numbers is your best argument, you need to read more. Much more.

@sibachian
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the church consensus is entirely belief based. they don’t operate on science, they can’t, it invalidates their existence. your example is not comparable.

if numerous independent scientists fulfill experiments and consistently arrive on the same theoretical consensus, any alternative hypothesis is invalidated until proven. you BELIEVE in something that is unproven and there is no theoretical evidence to support your belief. You need an idea as to why, and experiments to prove it consistently, before it can be presented. basically, what you are spouting right now is a belief you mistake for facts, as anecdotes are not evidence. correlation is not the same as causation.

मुक्त
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What exactly do you think science that puts word of authority on high pedestal is? An exercise in scientific method? Philosophy clearly labels reasoning that hangs on word of experts/scientists/preists as argument from authority fallacy.

I am well aware that the current generation is being taught in formal education that consensus of experts represents truth. But that mistake is a different debate, deserves a dedicated discussion.

@sibachian
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Philosophy is a creativity exercise. It’s archaic, and in modern terms, the first step in a long chain of steps to reach a conclusion.

You are mistaken in the belief that there is a debate here. Not everything is a debate. Not everything can have an opinion nor two sides of an argument. Reality unfortunately doesn’t work that way.

मुक्त
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Philosophy is a creativity exercise. It’s archaic, and in modern terms, the first step in a long chain of steps to reach a conclusion.

Philosophy is the basis of accumulating knowledge, including science, medicine, and statistics. The highest formal degree in most academic disciplines is still called PhD, or Doctor of Philosophy in the concerned subject. If by calling philosophy archaic you mean that it is irrelevant, then modern knowledge automatically loses all authenticity.

You are mistaken in the belief that there is a debate here. Not everything is a debate. Not everything can have an opinion nor two sides of an argument. Reality unfortunately doesn’t work that way.

If parameters mentioned here are fed values of my choosing, I can agree with your opinion expressed here.

Kinetix
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Tell us more about how reading more anecdotes is helpful and productive.

Do you have a point in any of your whataboutism nitpickings? You deny all the evidence in front of you and what, would like to sit around for 40 years to wait for what YOU consider a body of evidence to get prepared for this virus?

Or is there some other point?

मुक्त
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The point is straightforward. I am not convinced that these vaccines are good for me (or for anyone else taking them), and I have good reasons - some of which I have presented. Except for a couple of people, the community here has responded mostly with logical fallacies (argument from authority, and argument from numbers being most popular), simplistic ridicules, and expressions of wild disbeliefs.

As abundantly evident, most people have been indoctrinated to believe that the evidence is settled in favour of vaccines, but not one person has tried to build the case for the vaccines from any evidence. But somehow I am the one doing “whataboutism” and “nitpicking”. Sure, burn the heretic. Or, as one bigot here commented, “jab him”.

@Lightbritelite
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You sound foolish and erratic. Your “evidence” is all very weak. Your position is confusing and is hard to tell if you are confused of intentionally trying to spread misinformation.

मुक्त
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If my evidence is weak, you should be able to explain it away from how you view things.
If my position confuses you, you should be able to find questions that clarify it to you.
If you think I am confused, you must be able to state what is confusing me.

Kinetix
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Here’s the thing: Just like a flat earther, you’re rejecting everything you don’t agree with as logical fallacies, bigotry(say what?), or anything else. You are lacking in understanding what good information is, and until you can grasp the notion that just because an authority is telling you something doesn’t make it bad, you are simply being contrarian. Also, the people around here are not likely the experts in their fields - true experts are what the rest of us rely on, and just because we agree with them doesn’t mean there’s been an indoctrination of any sort. If you really want to follow that line of thinking, you can much more easily say that antivaxxers have been indoctrinated by misinformation trolls.

The evidence has become abundantly clear - the vaccine is amazingly safe and effective. COVID-19 is not worth the risk. Being anti-vaxx is a selfish and dangerous stance, as you’re risking other people’s lives for your “belief”.

मुक्त
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How exactly did you reach to the conclusion that avoiding vaccination endangers other people?

Kinetix
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I didn’t reach to the conclusion myself. You can find this information from those authoritarian dictatorship propaganda spreading (I presume this is how you view them) sources. Or even just base information on how vaccines work. Don’t ask me, I’m not a virologist or immunologist.

Buh-bye.

मुक्त
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Sheep.

Kinetix
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Deluded.

The body of evidence is clear, there’s really nothing for one to be skeptical of at this point. It’s like calling a flat earther a skeptic. You can title it what you want, but it’s delusion.

मुक्त
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Lol!
Even if you are supporting vaccination, you need to be aware that the body of evidence is incomplete without phase-4 data, and long term studies of after effects. The CDC once took 27 years to decide that a particular vaccine was making the subjects more susceptible to another serious disease.

Kinetix
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Yes, you should not get the COVID vaccines because there might possibly somewhere somehow be an outlying case that you should be afraid of.

COVID is perfectly safe to catch and really does nothing harmful to you whatsoever. Spreading COVID is also "the right thing to do"™.

lolicopters!

@Jeffrey
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These quotes come immediately before and after the cited graph in the report, I’ve shortened them for clarity and brevity:

These data should be considered in the context of vaccination status of the population groups … The vaccination status of cases … is not the most appropriate method to assess vaccine effectiveness and there is a high risk of misinterpretation.

it is expected that a large proportion of cases, hospitalisations and deaths would occur in vaccinated individuals, simply because a larger proportion of the population are vaccinated than unvaccinated … This is especially true because vaccination has been prioritised in individuals who are more susceptible or more at risk of severe disease. Individuals in risk groups … thus may be hospitalised or die with COVID-19 rather than because of COVID-19.

Interpretation of the case rates in vaccinated and unvaccinated population is particularly susceptible to changes in denominators and should be interpreted with extra caution.

Because the elderly and the chronically sick are the most likely to get vaccinated, and the young and healthy are the least likely to get vaccinated, it distorts the numbers to look like getting the vaccine increases your chance of contracting covid.

The report you cited is overflowing with warnings not to misinterpret the data, but you missed all the warnings. Ironically, your own argument is an excellent example why we need authorities to interpret findings for the general public, and why those authorities are deserving of more trust than any stranger on social media.

source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1025358/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-41.pdf

मुक्त
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All three of your quotes can be addressed:

  1. Of course it is not the most appropriate way to assess vaccine effectiveness. The most appropriate way is isolate the vector (which hasn’t been done till date), then administer it to test subjects (good luck finding willing test subjects), both vaccinated and unvaccinated, and then check the covid positive rates for these test subjects. And then there have to be replication studies to verify results, etc. You’ll need no less than a dictator to get this done.

  2. This is a generalised conjecture which can be refuted by one single appropriate example. As it happens, an appropriate example exists. Waterford, Ireland which has nearly 100% vaccination rate, became a covid positive hotbed soon after vaccination reached high percentage ( check here ).

  3. As it happens, the denominators in the tables have been uniquely specified and rates given in proportion to them. If the PHE have not made any mistakes in making the table, it is highly unlikely that my interpretations have erred on this count.

As for your own interpretation about difference in vaccination rate by age and illness distorting rates of covid contraction, that cannot be addressed without more comprehensive data. But there are distortions from other side as well. For instance, those more likely to contract covid may also be taking more social distancing precautions and maintaining stricter personal hygeine, etc.

@roastpotatothief
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post a link to your source. if you haven’t misunderstood it, that would be very interesting.

मुक्त
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Can be accessed from here.

@roastpotatothief
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That was interesting, thanks. So table 2 has to looked at together with table 3 and 4. But the same information shown much more clearly in figure 2 on pages 17 and 18.

And page 12 is a fairly good summary, there’s not much I could add to that. Do you agree with page 12 or is there another way of looking at it?

मुक्त
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Table 2, 3 and 4 are about different aspects. Table 2 deals with cases testing positive without going into severity of disease while Table 3 and 4 deal only with data about severe cases and terminal ones. Figure 2 makes bar charts of parts of these tables, which maybe clarifying for some.

While it puts the maths right, Page 12 is outright misleading about possible causes. The interpretations therein are carefully worded to guide the uninitiated reader to look away from the vaccines themselves as cause of anything bad.

Another pertinent aspect is that only table 2 (and corresponding figure on page 17) has data relevant to the spread of the virus itself and how vaccination is affecting it; and it does appear that covid is spreading faster in the vaccinated, at least for higher age groups.

While Table 3 and 4 may hint that vaccines are reducing serious illness and deaths, the virus has already proven that it mutates and faster spreading of it will ultimately accelerate mutations and Table 3 and 4 will progressively look worse with passage of time.

@roastpotatothief
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yes i agree with most of that. i think most people who are interested in this stuff, and are scientifically literate, will be familiar with those problems, and are still pro vaccine. just a couple of things.

  • what’s a better interpretation than page 12? it sounded fine to me.

  • this is real world data, not a randomised trial. there are lots of confounding factors. this kind of record is no substitute for a rigorous research study.

मुक्त
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Literacy doesn’t make people any less opinionated. Nor do opinions affect truth. Opinions only affect individual and collective decisions. For instance, if Titanic is sinking, no amount of opinions or voting against the fact of sinking will make any difference to the fact that it is sinking. Opinions only affect what people will do while it is sinking. Similarly, what people think about vaccines doesn’t affect vaccines’ actual impact.

To put my position on record:

  1. I am okay with vaccines as long as people are not coerced into getting vaccinated. Vaccination must be voluntary.
  2. Everyone opting to get vaccinated must be made aware that covid vaccines are still not fully tested, despite millions or billions of vaccines already administered.
  3. Pretending that ill effects of vaccines aren’t there isn’t just ethically wrong, it is criminally dangerous. Let people make intelligent, informed choice, rather than behaving like sheep.

Now, as for the two specific points you raised:

  • If one removes the pro-vaccine disclaimers, page 12 does get the summary of the math right. That is all there should be on that page.
  • There are prior concerns here: why vaccines have been hurriedly unleashed on the world, without conducting necessary randomised trials? why are we pretending that all is well while real world data is showing otherwise, and randomised trial data isn’t there?

There is much to be skeptical about, but we are collectively grasping on straws. Not the finest hour of mankind.

@roastpotatothief
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  1. I agree, but would go even further. Coersion in general can be dangerous in an epidemic. If everyone is forced to do the same thing (like take a vaccine or work from home or wear a mask or anything) and then it turns out there’s a problem with doing that, 100% of people have that problem and your society is in big trouble. For example if working from home causes obesity in 5% of people, then you have a medical emergency coming up. And the problem could be anything, you can’t predict these things. Every action has unknown unintended consequences. If there is no coercion and people all react in slightly different but mostly sensible ways, you get the same important behavioural change but without the making your society fragile.

Then, you’re leaving the responsibility to individuals, not taking it on yourself. If as president you force everyone to take a vaccine and that vaccine causes 1% of people to die, you are personally responsible for those deaths. If you make it optional, and most people take it, and some of them die, they are individually responsible.

But politicians think they are smarter than most people, which they are not. Most unusually stupid people think they are unusually intelligent. That leads to politicians having this arrogance that they can, and should, make personal decisions for other people.

2 and 3. The people who say that are just ignorant. The details of vaccine risks are online. You can understand them better than the average politician. They cause heart attacks, and other stuff I forget, in some tiny fraction of people. But in the case of covid, getting vaccinated is much safer than not.

  1. page 12 does get the summary of the math right Okay.

  2. That’s the kind of question with no real answer. You can say, evil money and power and corruption, or because of dire emergency, or because vaccines are the best most effective remedy, or because of foolish short-sighted politicians and group think. All these answers are correct. You can argue which one is more correct, you can argue than forever and never convince anyone. Some people do!

मुक्त
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While the position I expressed above pertains to vaccines, I am generally aligned with voluntaryism and hold that coersion is wrong in all matters. Being non-voluntary, after all, is the only thing that differentiates rape from sex, and scam from trade.

I feel we are both in harmony on points 1 to 4. I disagree on point 5. Real answers do exist even if we haven’t agreed upon them as yet. Public debate, even social media debate, is a way to form, refine or change opinions of individuals, ideally. Let us not treat it as anything less.

@roastpotatothief
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Yes great. But I still insist there’s two separate problems. Firstly yes you’re raping/scamming the very people who pay your salary. Or as I’d put it, stripping their civil rights (in many territories the measures which were taken are actually illegal/unconstitutional).

But the second thing is that it is counterproductive. For example in France the government first banned wearing masks, then enforced it. They first enforced all children goin to school, then enforced all children stopping school.

If they had not done that, many people would have started wearing masks and stopped going to school much earlier. Many lives would have been saved. The best government action would have been to do nothing and allow people to decide for themselves. By relying on the collective intelligence of society, you get a better outcome than relying on your own intelligence. To think otherwise is just the arrogance of the stupid.

But don’t get me started on that can of worms, the credibility/competence of governance in Frenace.

@Lightbritelite
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Good question. Is this person someone who’s mind can be changed with facts? A loved one? An acquaintance? You could go for the slapback of how many people died and are continuing to die from getting coronavirus vs the alleged thousands that have died from the vaccines. Or you could point them to factual sources that they’ll reject as fake. You could lay down facts about hospital overcrowding due to Corona patients? Maybe tell them that not getting the vaccine is a liberal conspiracy to let republicans get sick all over each other? I dunno, good question.

The Free Penguin
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Well, here’s the thing. Said anti-vaxxer supports Biden.

मुक्त
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The one obvious problem in your scheme is that s/he can ask the same question about you: Can your mind be changed with facts? Here is a list of newspaper articles documenting deaths of over 5000 vaccinated Indians.

Just deaths. Less serious/less immediate effects are not even being documented because of sheer apathy.

@Lightbritelite
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I’m not sure if I quite believe what you’re posting there, but i will say that hospitals can’t keep up with the covid patients and folks with other serious issues can’t get proper medical treatment due to the overcrowding of unvaccinated folks. There’s only around 60 ER beds where i live, and they’re pretty consistently full of COVID patients. I live in the US, btw.

मुक्त
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What exactly is the “proper medical treatment” of a covid patient? Do tell if the “authorities” in US have been able to decide anything.

I am in Delhi, India, and have seen what you are seeing 6 months ago, probably seen worse. For two months or so, there were too many patients for the system to handle. Beds weren’t there. Oxygen was in short supply. Ventilators were few. 20+ of my own family members were either positive or suffering with illness but not officially positive. The count of friends and coworkers, I didn’t bother with. For two months, no one cared for non-covid related news. A city with over 10 million residents, and people were dying regardless of their vaccination status. Many prominent people, some doctors, with double vaccination are already dead of covid.

@ChinaNumberOne
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no response is needed, fascism is unsustainable, these people are bound to die soon enough, if not for the virus for the revolution that is to come

मुक्त
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Username checks out.

@ChinaNumberOne
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just checked your comments history, gigantic yikes

reported and blocked

@N0b3d
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Punch him in the face.

मुक्त
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Isn’t punching in the face supposed to spread the xhinese flu?

@pingveno
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Referring to COVID-19 as “xhinese flu” is considered xenophobia. Further use of that term will result in a ban.

मुक्त
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Even though I disagree with this rule whose basis appears to be reddit-like political correctness, I’ll follow.

Is there a place where one can formally contest this rule?

@pingveno
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Nope. It’s up to me to interpret the rules, and that is the conclusion I’ve come to. Just use the terms agreed upon by the WHO and the scientific community more broadly and you’ll be fine.

@roastpotatothief
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jab him instead

@TheAnonymouseJoker
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So, asking as an Indian to an Indian, why are you a xenophobe? Zara hume bhi bataiye.

your comment

मुक्त
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I am just suspiscious of what govt does. I still don’t know what kind of fear China put into politicians so that Chinese flu doesn’t exist, but Indian variant does.

@roastpotatothief
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according to conventional wisdom, you shouldn’t call it Indian variant just as you shouldn’t call it Wuhan flu. it’s delta variant and covid 19. there’s no hypocrisy there. they (the WHO i guess) are being sensible and consistent.

so there’s one less reason to be suspicious :)

@TheAnonymouseJoker
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22M

Based sensible comment

मुक्त
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-32M

You got it the wrong way. Conventional wisdom says it should be chinese flu, just like spanish flu. Delta variant and covid19 come from the current fashionable wisdom.

@roastpotatothief
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12M

Spanish flu is conventionally called Influenza A.

I guess all this stuff is debatable. In historical discussions, you might use the more geographical names, but never in medicine. No-one ever gets diagnosed with Spanish flu these days.

मुक्त
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12M

Conventional name is spanish flu only. Hardly anyone knows that Spanish flu was a type of Influenza A, actually this remains debateable if it was indeed Influenza A.

People do get Influenza A today, but not Spanish flu.

@roastpotatothief
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11M

have a look at the Wikipedia article. it was all explained quite clearly near the top. people get Spanish flu all the time, there are global epidemics every few years, but they call it influenza A H1N1, because that’s the proper name.

मुक्त
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11M

That article makes it clear that H1N1 is a virus type and not a disease.

@roastpotatothief
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11M

In terms of “disease” you would say you have a cold, or you have the flu. Disease as in a set of symptoms with common cause.

Or you talk in terms of “pathogen” you could say you have H1N1 or covid-19.

In terms of “symptoms” you could say you have a cough or a fever.

There is no context where you’d say you have spanish flu, or wuhan flu.

So those terms are neither correct nor common usage. Not in english anyway.

But TBH this is just a linguistic thing. I made much more interesting commentary in my other reply to you. I’d like to hear your thoughts on that one.

मुक्त
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11M

Spanish flu, is a flu. I don’t see anything anywhere in any context that disputes this. Sure one can circle round and round all political correctness, but these things are so direct that the smallest voice in support easily withstands all the organized machinery doing global propaganda.

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