What about animal products that one knows did not result from the suffering and deaths of animals? Like eggs from your own, free roaming, well-treated, chickens?
I disagree. This sounds like gate keeping. For me, veganism is about being against animal exploitation. If the relation between animals is symbiotic (mutually beneficial), I personally don’t think this is exploitation.
I don’t want to debate about it. I’ve already been down that road and it is not pretty. Vegans don’t win anything by tearing each other apart. But I want to offer a different vision of what veganism is to the OP.
I’m not gonna argue, as I said, because I know that people that are as extremist as you are cannot be reasoned with. Also, you are admin and you seem to have the ban hammer quite heavy, so I’m not gonna risk it. I left this community yesterday and won’t come back. Your approach is so extreme that you manage to scare away even other vegans/antispeciesists. This should give you pause as to how you are actually defending animals by having that kind of behavior.
Just a comment on that single sentence, because this seems all wrong to me:
Animal welfarism consists in the application of moral utilitarianism to individuals of other animal species.
I have no idea how you manage to conflate welfarism, utilitarianism and speciesism. Animal welfarism can and should encompass humans. Please notice how I said “If the relation between animals is symbiotic”. If I had a speciesist approach because of my welfairism, I would have said something like “If the relation between humans and animals is symbiotic”.
Veganism is not about purity. It is about ethics and the living. By definition, utilitarianism is a branch of the philosophy of ethics. Since you said that “animal welfarism is not veganism” and you define animal welfarism as “the application of moral utilitarianism to individuals of other animal species”, my understanding is that you are not seeking ethics but purity and thus missing the point entirely.
I disagree, but I can feel the radicality of a newly converted in your words. Newly converted often come from carnism and it took them a form of trauma or sudden enlightnement to take the step. Often, after that, they are very radical, hating the world for not making the same choice they did. For being blind to the horrors. Then they learn that their radical approach is toxic to the cause and thus to the animals in the long run.
I have been vegetarian for 33 years, and then vegan for 7 years, and my parents taught me antispeciesism when I was a child. I’ve grown my whole life (40 years), knowing that I had a different take on things than most people. I had a lot of time to think about it and I acquired a lot of experience talking about animal rights. I learned over all these years that you cannot convince anyone with radicality. And so does L214, the most prominent NGO in France for animal rights. No radical French NGO made any difference, except for the few dozens they actively saved, while millions were dying every day meanwhile.
Even if the end goal is abolitionism, having a moderate approach, and pushing for welfarist laws are pratical ethics in action. They improve the life of millions of animals, help the public to understand the issues, and simply make you audible. Screaming your hatred at the world will just make you look odd and you are helping no animal that way. None. In fact, I dare say that radical veganism is even counterproductive because it scares people away. People that would cease to be part of the problem and even people that could convince others to stop being part of it. Domino effect.
I recommand that you read Singer’s book on Henry Spira’s life and methods. I recommend you read Full Spectrum Resistance. This might teach you a few things about convincing people and defending a cause.
Regarding symbiosis, organisms, including animals, can live together and be mutually beneficial to each other. Do you think your microbiota is taking advantage of you? Is it exploiting you? In a way it does, because it manipulates you and influences your psyche. Yet, you would die without it. You feed it, and it keeps you alive. Do you see where I am going? Sure, the microbiota is not sentient but you are. And you are the one being exploited, if we stick to your definition of exploitation.
We can’t abolish slavery right away, baby steps are necessary. We need a more moderate approach.
In fact, I dare say that radical abolition is even counterproductive because it scares people away. We need to push for better treatment of slaves, and not alienate the slaveholders.
It’s mostly well intentioned people. Like people who buy higher price animal products for animal welfare.
I think it’s a moral good if people do it, but better if they went vegan :)
What about animal products that one knows did not result from the suffering and deaths of animals? Like eggs from your own, free roaming, well-treated, chickens?
Do people have 50% roosters running around? I don’t think that works, they will constantly fight each other.
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What gives you the right to barge into their home and steal their eggs?
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I disagree. This sounds like gate keeping. For me, veganism is about being against animal exploitation. If the relation between animals is symbiotic (mutually beneficial), I personally don’t think this is exploitation.
I don’t want to debate about it. I’ve already been down that road and it is not pretty. Vegans don’t win anything by tearing each other apart. But I want to offer a different vision of what veganism is to the OP.
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I’m not gonna argue, as I said, because I know that people that are as extremist as you are cannot be reasoned with. Also, you are admin and you seem to have the ban hammer quite heavy, so I’m not gonna risk it. I left this community yesterday and won’t come back. Your approach is so extreme that you manage to scare away even other vegans/antispeciesists. This should give you pause as to how you are actually defending animals by having that kind of behavior.
Just a comment on that single sentence, because this seems all wrong to me:
I have no idea how you manage to conflate welfarism, utilitarianism and speciesism. Animal welfarism can and should encompass humans. Please notice how I said “If the relation between animals is symbiotic”. If I had a speciesist approach because of my welfairism, I would have said something like “If the relation between humans and animals is symbiotic”. Veganism is not about purity. It is about ethics and the living. By definition, utilitarianism is a branch of the philosophy of ethics. Since you said that “animal welfarism is not veganism” and you define animal welfarism as “the application of moral utilitarianism to individuals of other animal species”, my understanding is that you are not seeking ethics but purity and thus missing the point entirely.
I feel like I took the bait. You can now ban me.
Someone should make a debateVeganism sub
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I disagree, but I can feel the radicality of a newly converted in your words. Newly converted often come from carnism and it took them a form of trauma or sudden enlightnement to take the step. Often, after that, they are very radical, hating the world for not making the same choice they did. For being blind to the horrors. Then they learn that their radical approach is toxic to the cause and thus to the animals in the long run.
I have been vegetarian for 33 years, and then vegan for 7 years, and my parents taught me antispeciesism when I was a child. I’ve grown my whole life (40 years), knowing that I had a different take on things than most people. I had a lot of time to think about it and I acquired a lot of experience talking about animal rights. I learned over all these years that you cannot convince anyone with radicality. And so does L214, the most prominent NGO in France for animal rights. No radical French NGO made any difference, except for the few dozens they actively saved, while millions were dying every day meanwhile.
Even if the end goal is abolitionism, having a moderate approach, and pushing for welfarist laws are pratical ethics in action. They improve the life of millions of animals, help the public to understand the issues, and simply make you audible. Screaming your hatred at the world will just make you look odd and you are helping no animal that way. None. In fact, I dare say that radical veganism is even counterproductive because it scares people away. People that would cease to be part of the problem and even people that could convince others to stop being part of it. Domino effect.
I recommand that you read Singer’s book on Henry Spira’s life and methods. I recommend you read Full Spectrum Resistance. This might teach you a few things about convincing people and defending a cause.
Regarding symbiosis, organisms, including animals, can live together and be mutually beneficial to each other. Do you think your microbiota is taking advantage of you? Is it exploiting you? In a way it does, because it manipulates you and influences your psyche. Yet, you would die without it. You feed it, and it keeps you alive. Do you see where I am going? Sure, the microbiota is not sentient but you are. And you are the one being exploited, if we stick to your definition of exploitation.
We can’t abolish slavery right away, baby steps are necessary. We need a more moderate approach.
In fact, I dare say that radical abolition is even counterproductive because it scares people away. We need to push for better treatment of slaves, and not alienate the slaveholders.
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