MobocraticEgoi[old]
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107M

You’re allowed but for some reason MLs hang out in this forum and downvote anti-ML posts. Not really sure why but that’s how it is! Maybe the solution is just for anarchists to spin their own Lemmy instance. That would also let us have subforums specific to our community.

@yogthos
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26M

Lemmy is developed by Marxist-Leninists, and naturally most people here are MLs. If you’re not comfortable with this ideology then you probably should run your own platform.

MobocraticEgoi[old]
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16M

I wasn’t aware of that until very recently (the recent announcement post about it), although I don’t see what would be wrong with anarchists using the software for their own purpose. The software should be judged on its own merits and not by who develops it.

@yogthos
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36M

Completely agree with you. I’m simply noting that if people aren’t comfortable with the fact that Lemmy is developed by MLs then they should probably build their own. I certainly see no problem with anarchists making their own instance or using any existing ones as long as everyone is respectful of others views.

@southerntofu
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27M

Maybe the solution is just for anarchists to spin their own Lemmy instance.

I’d be interested in that and have some space on ~fr, we just need a good domain name ;)

MobocraticEgoi[old]
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16M

Are you aware of lemmy.161.social? From what I can tell, it’s run by a German anarcho-communist and the instance has an antifa theme. Maybe we could migrate there and start an anarchist community on that instance.

@southerntofu
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26M

I’ve seen it linked here and there, but i don’t speak german unfortunately. I don’t know who runs it but i don’t think it would be harmful to have more anarchist/antifascist instances, since discussions are federated :)

MobocraticEgoi[old]
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16M

I don’t think it needs to be too clever. “blackflag.social” or something like that.

@nutomic
admin
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87M

“Tankism” isnt a thing, do you mean Marxism-Leninism? In general, you can criticise anything you want, as long as it is based on facts and not on baseless insulting.

@southerntofu
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17M

“Tankism” from my understanding is an umbrella term for various forms of authoritarianism. Marxism-Leninism is definitely one of those, and so is trotskyism and maoism.

Marxism has strong overlap with “tankism” but the two groups are not equivalent, as there’s a (growing?) number of anti-authoritarian marxists.

@nutomic
admin
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37M

You should read the text On Authority by Engels, it is quite short and explains the Marxist stance in this regard.

@ancom
creator
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26M

Well, that text…have you ever tried to read critiques to such? If so, why do you come do a different conclusion, then that Engels renders the term authority useless? In his definition, authority is is justified because it can mean everything. Mutual aid is authority, plants living in symbioses is authority, plants producing oxygen is authority over humans…sure, you can use that definition, but by doing so you simply sneak around a critique against authority by stating it’s inevitable, so the issue can’t be authority itself.

Serious question: which critiques of authority have your read, to which you disagree to such a great amount, that you feel compelled to go with Engels analysis here, that is in short: everything is authority, and because it is inevitable to exist, it invalidates the critique against, without actually engaging with the actual brought up arguments of those that critique authority.

@nutomic
admin
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16M

I did read “the conquest of bread”, but wasnt convinced at all by its suggestion that people would just spontaneously organise themselves one day, without any planning or preparation at all. And I dont see Engels as “justifying” authority, rather, authority is simply something that exists in objective reality, whether you like it or not.

It is true that there are forms of authority which need to be fought against, such as the authority of the boss over the worker, or bourgeosie over the working class. But a certain form of authority is necessary to wage a revolution, because there will always be a bourgeous minority who opposes it.

@southerntofu
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27M

Thanks, i had read some Engels previously but this one really disappointed me. The questions/critics are good, but the logic is flawed.

If the autonomists confined themselves to saying that the social organisation of the future would restrict authority solely to the limits within which the conditions of production render it inevitable, we could understand each other

Well that’s precisely what autonomy/anarchism is about. But because we rely on principles of voluntary association, rule by the majority in a specific collective (if it so wishes to be organized) is not a problem, just like specific delegations of power to a coordinator with an established mandate. If you don’t agree with the organization of a specific collective, you can always find other collectives to live/organize with.

We anarchists understand the value of delegating power in specific sets of circumstances. When i’m farming, i consciously/explicitly delegate some trust to more knowledgeable comrades to guide me in the process (and learn something). When as a collective we decide to organize an event, we consciously/explicitly delegate some trust to specific groups of people to handle various aspects of that (communication, logistics, food). Because it’s a transparent and consented process, and because this trust can be revoked at any time (there’s no higher power over me that’ll ruin my life if i decide i should do something else than farming), we do not understand this delegation to be a form of authority.

To answer to the three problems posed by Engels:

  • a cotton mill, or any other factory can be organized in a self-organized manner as proved by the experiences of revolutionary Spain (or VIOME in Greece for a more recent example) ; the staff holds a general assembly (a soviet, if you will) and decides on how to organize things, including who to entrust with specific concerns when that is required by the circumstances (usually, not a single person is named responsible, because every single person can fail)
  • train systems may also be run in a self-organized manner (see revolutionary Spain) ; time-sensitiveness is less of a problem nowadays because we have instant communication devices, and rail switching has been mostly automated, but in general individuals may commit to specific timetables if they so wish for the sake of the community (public service) ; if a person does not see interest in this, they may leave the task for someone else who finds interest in it
  • in times of crisis on a ship (as in other circumstances), having few identified people making the decisions can be a life-saver (because time is of the essence and reaching consensus can take time) ; however, who is placed in charge in such extraordinary circumstances should also be decided in advance as a collective, otherwise conflicts for power may emerge

Individual consent is a foundational basis for anarchist understanding of collective organization. Dictatorship of the majority is usually considered an anti-pattern, though it is a perfectly fine method of organizing if it is consented by everyone involved. Consensus is hard to reach, but consensus-building as a process in and of itself reinforces trust/solidarity as a collective. Forcing ourselves to take time to address concerns upfront usually enables to prevent further issues/conflicts by developing mutual understanding and trying to build common ground.

In the end of the consensus-building process, disagreements may still happen. In this case, both sides should weigh the pros and cons, and decide which is more important, between their participation in the collective, and their individual opinions. All situations are perfectly fine:

  • a dissenting person compromises on their ideas/principles, because they consider their action within the collective is more important in that specific context
  • a dissenting person vetoes a collective decision because they can’t compromise on certain principles ; in which case, both sides will ponder whether they may or may not compromise on it, leading to either side leaving the collective (potentially forking it), or expelling other people from the collective

In all cases, personal autonomy is respected. If you don’t agree with the operating principles of a commune, you’re free to take your chances elsewhere that will better suit you, and no higher authority will hold you back. In a capitalist society, leaving your job would mean uncertainty about material survival in the coming days/months. In a dictatorship of the proletariat, leaving your job would mean uncertainty about surviving interrogation by the political police following your “counter-revolutionary acts”. There is no equivalent situation in a free commune.

Back to Engels, i was also disappointed by this sentence:

Wanting to abolish authority in large-scale industry is tantamount to wanting to abolish industry itself, to destroy the power loom in order to return to the spinning wheel.

This is a strawman argument. Most anarchists are not primitivists, so reducing anti-authoritarianism to primitivism makes no sense. But even if that were the case, what’s wrong with primitivism? It’s not exactly my thing, but in our times, the dangers of industrial society for all life on this planet have been long proved. Simply dismissing primitivism like that without expanding/criticizing on it as a potentially-viable alternative way of life is depressing.

Finally, Engels argues anti-authoritarians “serve the reaction”. History has proved otherwise. Thanks for an interesting (if bad faith) read :)

@xe8
mod
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77M

What’s “tankism”? There’s just been a statement about the political ideologies of devs / mods on Lemmy.

If you just want to share a spicy meme there are other communities like /c/completeanarchy and /c/dankleft.

Seems appropriate at this point that here you should at least put some effort into your critique and at least define if you’re talking about Marxism, ML, MLM, or some other ideology.

@ancom
creator
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26M

I want to share analysis about their abusive practice. Starting from the Bolshevik suppression of the soviet revolution and ending with the modern form that tries to follow these footsteps.

@xe8
mod
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16M

That seems fine. I’m just thinking it’s best to do so with some substantial analysis / critique.

If you just start a thread with the title of “Am I allowed to criticize tankism in this forum?” and saying nothing else, it’s just going to come off as inflammatory trolling without substance. You’re not going to convince anyone that way.

@ttmrichter
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-17M

As with most political slurs, while originally having some (albeit often overstated) meaning, “tankie” boils down today to “you person with whom I disagree”. C.f. “Nazi” or “SJW” or “MAGAt” or any number of other tribal signalling mechanisms.

Generally I find people who resort to such political slurs prone to using them in place of thoughtful discourse, so upon hearing them used—no matter which political ideology is being slurred thusly—I assume the person using them has nothing valid to say and skip to the next post. As such I advocate strongly for people using them as often as they like. It helps me bypass the chaff that much more quickly.

@southerntofu
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27M

All those labels you quoted have actual meaning. They may not be always used accurately, but they are not derailed from reality. There’s millions of nazis around spreading their ideology, as much as there’s marxist-leninists trying to rewrite history of the bolshevik coup d’État and political repression as some form of popular justice. These people deserve to be criticized for their genocidal aspirations.

@ttmrichter
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16M

Correction: all those labels I quoted had meaning. Meaning in language is determined by usage, not by fiat. (If you don’t agree, I’d ask you to point me to the authority you recognize for language meaning…) In usage outside of very specific technical contexts they have all lost meaning because grandstanders and ignoramuses love to reach for the worst word they used when dismissively labelling someone with whom they disagree.

Why reach for “authoritarian right-winger”, after all, when “YOU’RE A LITERAL NAZI!” packs a more solid punch (in their minds)? Why reach for “authoritarian left-winger” when you could screech “TANKIE!” at the top of your lungs?

Terms which become epithets follow this inevitable downhill path: term of the art → symbolic term → epithet → “person with whom I mildly or greatly disagree, along with an annotation of my tribal involvement”.

@ancom
creator
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-57M

I mean the 2. rule of lemmy.ml is “Be respectful. Everyone should feel welcome here.” So just mere criticism could be read as being a violation of that rule.

If that’s the case, I think lemmy is nothing for me.

@ttmrichter
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27M

You seriously can’t fathom the notion of disagreeing respectfully? Of respectful criticism? Really?

@southerntofu
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17M

Rule n°2 is pretty generic. Feeling welcome is not exactly the same as feeling comfortable. Being faced with our own contradictions on a public forum is in my view a good thing, but being assigned a specific role based on a label (“anarchist”, “communist”) is in my view counter-productive.

I don’t think criticizing an ideology is a lack of respect. I would personally support strong explicit language against authoritarian communists to denounce their attacks against popular self-determination in the present times. But i’m not in favor of “all marxists are genociders” kind of discourse, if that’s what you had in mind.

That’s just my two cents, and honestly i’m tempted to open a dedicated anarchist lemmy, if only for concerns of resilience ;)

@yogthos
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-57M

Calling somebody a tankie is a slur. So feel free to criticize people’s positions and debate them, but if you’re going to use pejorative terms for people who don’t see things the same way you do then this forum might not be for you.

Really? What does the word originally mean? I always used it as a way to say communist, I’ve even used it to say I am a communist or I jave heard other people use d it in the same way. English is not my native tongue, btw

nBee
link
137M

The word originally referred to communists that supported the Communist Party of the Soviet Union in their suppression of “[…] the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and later the Prague Spring of 1968 […]”[1] . As I do not really have much information about the former, I will focus on the latter instead:

Alexander Dubček succeeded Antonín Novotný as the first secretary of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia in October 1967. His government had planned new political reforms, a so-called “Socialism with a human face”: social/cultural/political democratization, decentralization and liberalization. After political negotiations did not resolve the disagreements other states of the Warsaw Pact had with these plans, the member states resorted to a military intervention: On 21. August 1968, soldiers from members of the Warshaw Pact invaded and occupied Czechoslovakia, without any prior request from the Czechoslovakian government (this is where the term stems from, as the Warsaw Pact rolled in with tanks). Dubček and other officials were arrested. Few days later, they signed the Moscow Protocol that repealed most of the enacted reforms.[2]

The antisocialist elements in Czechoslovakia actually covered up the demand for so-called neutrality and Czechoslovakia’s withdrawal from the socialist community with talking about the right of nations to self-determination.

However, the implementation of such “self-determination,” in other words, Czechoslovakia’s detachment from the socialist community, would have come into conflict with its own vital interests and would have been detrimental to the other socialist states.

Such “self-determination,” as a result of which NATO troops would have been able to come up to the Soviet border, while the community of European socialist countries would have been split, in effect encroaches upon the vital interests of the peoples of these countries and conflicts, as the very root of it, with the right of these people to socialist self-determination.

Discharging their internationalist duty toward the fraternal peoples of Czechoslovakia and defending their own socialist gains, the U.S.S.R. and the other socialist states had to act decisively and they did act against the antisocialist forces in Czechoslovakia.

– Leonid Brezhnev, 1968[3]

This justification for a military intervention in a ‘brother-state’, now also known as the Brezhnev Doctrine, was supported by some members of the Communist Party of Great Britain – which were then called ‘Tankies’. That’s the historical origin at least.

Today, the word is mostly used as a negative descriptor for people who support, apologize or defend militaristic or authoritarian means of enforcing a communist or socialist system.


References

[1] Wikipedia contributors (2021, February 23). Tankie. In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tankie&oldid=1008394377

[2] Karner, Stefan (2008). Der “Prager Frühling”. Aus Politik und Zeitgeschichte, B 20. Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung, Bonn. https://www.bpb.de/geschichte/deutsche-geschichte/68er-bewegung/52007/prager-fruehling?p=all

[3] Brezhnev Doctrine (2019, July 22). In Wikisource. https://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Brezhnev_Doctrine&oldid=9467309

@yogthos
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57M

Lately I’ve seen it used largely as a pejorative term for Marxist-Leninists or people who defend existing socialist states. I personally see it nothing more than an ad hominem attack. If somebody disagrees with a position another person has then they can articulate what it is they disagree with.

@southerntofu
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17M

I only learned the etymology lately, but “tankism” is not an ad-hominem attack. It’s a political critique of authoritarianism, which uses tanks (and other repressive measures) against the people in order to defend existing power structures, in the name of a hypothetical socialist State (which is arguably just another form of State capitalism).

So i usually critique marxism/leninism specifically, but “tankism” appears to be a valid umbrella term for all kinds of abuses of power in the name of (illusory) social progress.

@yogthos
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17M

Just the same way anarkiddie is a term for describing infantile understanding of political theory and an umbrella term for critiquing utopian ideology.

@southerntofu
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27M

Never heard that one. Glad to be a grown-up utopian anarkiddie then ;)

@rockroach
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@yogthos
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16M

highly recommend people actually read it

@ancom
creator
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06M

Anarkiddie is an insult because it’s using Adultism to communicate a critique, that has absolutely nothing to do with being of young age. Tankie is not an insult, because it describes those that are in favor of oppressing self organized elements with military force, as long as those rolling the tanks have a red flag or something.

See: the one thing is just ad hominem, while the other is a direct critique of specific behavior and politics.

@yogthos
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16M

Anarkiddie is an insult saying that anarchists have an infantile understanding of politics. Many Anarchists don’t bother reading theory or learning history, and advocate approaches that have been shown not to work in the past. It’s a direct critique of specific behavior and politics.

@ancom
creator
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16M

By using adultism, that is a “prejudice and accompanying systematic discrimination against young people”.

@yogthos
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16M

This has nothing to do with young people, plenty of whom read theory and history.

@ancom
creator
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16M

so when you say “kiddie” and “infantile” you don’t refer to young people?

Do you believe yourselves when you say so? I guess not. lol

@yogthos
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16M

Term infantile refers to adults who act like children.

@ancom
creator
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16M

again: it is adultism. educate yourself, and stop trying to explain me things I’m obviously already aware off, just so that you can apear in front of yourself as the clever one. Stop that nonsese.

@yogthos
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16M

I’m telling you that both insults have exact same substance to them. You’re the one trying to be clever and claim that one is more substantial than the other.

@ancom
creator
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16M

using adultims and not using adultism is not the same. thank you for your understanding on that matter. the end.

@yogthos
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26M

Adultism is prejudice and accompanying systematic discrimination against young people. While the criticism is of adults acting like children. If you can’t understand that, then I don’t really have anything else to tell you.

@ancom
creator
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16M

but sure, hide shitty behavior with “it has nothing to do with that”.

There are alternative to that behavior, and you are capable to choose another approach.

@ancom
creator
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27M

I corrected my question to be more perceive what I actually wanted to ask. Thought rule in /c/anarchism is pretty clear on that point: “Argue about the point and not the person”

@yogthos
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27M

Again, you can constructively debate specific points you disagree with. What specifically do you define as tankism?

🏴MAE-161💣🟢✝️
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7M

A fucking slur? What kinda cishet white male nonsense is this?? I can’t believe we’re mutuals on mastodon wtf is this bullshit? I think tankie is a dumb term that is so broad and varied that its useless, but calling it a slur is just fucking laughable. I’ve been called actual slurs before for being queer. Have you ever had to face that in your life? Doubtful.

@yogthos
link
27M

A slur as in an insulting or disparaging remark or innuendo.

White cishet men wanna feel oppressed soooooooo bad

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