It’s not just “psyops” how can you not see that? There is literally no political opposition in the country anymore. It is far right regime that has shut down all opposition and created a scenario in which anyone that isn’t remotely in line with exactly what the regime wants now ends up on an assassination list.
Dismissing it as just “psyops” is a defence of a very clear and inarguable act of fascist terror. By dismissing it we would be normalising the act of putting people on assassination lists for saying extremely mild things that a government dislikes.
Ukraine is acting worse than Israel and people are actively defending and normalising it.
Ukraine now gets a free pass for literally everything because HURR DURR RUSSIA BAD! That was made official when Amnesty retracted their report about unethical Ukranian war tactics this month because people freaked out that they would DARE criticise anything about Ukraine. I’m convinced that they can literally open up an extermination camp for Russian POWs with gas chambers and the West will find a way to spin that as either “they need it to defeat Russia” or “Russians are even worse so that makes it okay”, you know, the arguments they used to smear the Amnesty report.
And these are the people who accuse us (socialists) of “whataboutism”.
There is literally no political opposition in the country anymore. It is far right regime that has shut down all opposition and created a scenario in which anyone that isn’t remotely in line with exactly what the regime wants now ends up on an assassination list.
Zero class analysis. Typically american. Those of us in more class conscious countries can see that this is different when one class does it vs the other.
When the bourgeoisie do it they do it to perform the maximum acts of violence and exploitation upon the workers.
When the proletariat does it they do it to perform the maximum acts of repression upon the bourgeoisie, with the intent on their complete abolition.
One is the abolition of exploitation and the other is the ramping up and climax of exploitation. Can you see the difference between these two things or do you just go through life pretending class isn’t actually a thing?
When slaves rose up an murdered their exploiters, preventing political opposition with the use of guns were they in the wrong for abolishing that form of exploitation? I am going to assume you don’t think so but I could be wrong. Why then do you think the working classes should not prevent political opposition from the people exploiting us?
Didn’t you say you were an anarchist before? Anarchist theory is 100% in favour of completely repressing the bourgeoisie through use of violent force and ruthlessly preventing the political opposition to anarchy as well. Are you just not an anarchist then? Because if you’re against that then you’re literally just a liberal, you do not believe in a fundamental principle of either anarchist or socialist theory. Anarchy is NOT “let anyone do what they want even the exploiters” lmao. I was an anarchist for 25 years before moving over to marxism-leninism.
I never said i was an anarchist or any ideology. why are you so obsessed with attacking teams/cults that aren’t your own. Can you believe in things without supporting other people blindly just because that wave your flag or wear your hat?
Putin isn’t bombing Ukraine because its oppressing his country lmao and its been doing all that fascist shit, assassinating people in other countries + in Russia and stopping all opposition for decades. Its a far right christian nationalist country not the USSR
I never said i was an anarchist or any ideology. why are you so obsessed with attacking teams/cults that aren’t your own. Can you believe in things without supporting other people blindly just because that wave your flag or wear your hat?
You’re fucking around a lot here. You’re clearly a liberal participating in bad faith. They are neither teams nor cults, they are political goals and understanding a person’s political goals is key in analysing their positions and intentions accurately. My attitude and the way I talk to an anarchist is completely different to how I talk to a communist or a liberal, for good reasons. I share much in common with anarchists, I do not share much in common with liberals, the liberal ideology is one of exploitation while the socialist and anarchist ideology is of abolishing exploitation.
Ukraine has fuck all to do with my comment lmao jog the fuck on. Stop changing the topic every other comment it makes it unbearably pointless to engage with you because you. I am not responding to an attempt to change topic unless you actually respond to me instead of avoiding questions and dodging around endlessly. Either talk to me respectfully and actually engage with the things I say or jog the fuck n and stop wasting my time.
Hey I do not care what your position is, but the sentence
Either talk to me respectfully and actually engage with the things I say or jog the fuck n and stop wasting my time.
Is this a joke ? You are being way more aggressive and engage way less than them in your whole post, but even in the very sentence where you are denouncing this very attitude. How could you expect anyone that does not already blindly agree with you to take you seriously ?
(TBH, this kind of behavior seems so absurd to me I almost feel like it has to be liberal strategy to make leftist look stupid, aggressive and impossible to reason with…)
No it’s not a joke. When I say “respectful” here I am referring to the respect afforded someone when you actually want them to engage with you. If you want someone to actually engage with the shit you say, then the bare minimum to receive that engagement is to reciprocate. That is good faith engagement between two people regardless of tone. If I’m going to talk to the other side, the baseline for that conversation to not become highly aggressive is to actually talk instead of fucking around dodging every single question and then going for the topic change and expecting me to continue engaging after they clearly did not engage with me.
“You’re being aggressive”. Of course my tone is grumpy after someone has intentionally dodging every single word I say who is now self-admittedly not part of any “leftist” ideology whatsoever that this instance is supposed to be about. Their pattern of behaviour is synonymous with wreckers, their intent here is solely to fuck with a leftist project and do harm or mischief in whatever ways they can come up with.
I’d rather talk to someone that insults me while actually genuinely responding to the things I say than talk to someone that engages in this kind of weasel behaviour, it is far far worse and far more damaging to any sense of community. It functions to generate enormous amounts of distrust between a community and a naive modteam that continually puts up with the more damaging behaviour by affording it far more leeway than it deserves.
OK sorry I was a bit aggresive myself. What I mean is I am someone who is here to listen to different perspectives than what western libertarian media explains me. I think I am open minded and ready to changee/adjust my view on different subject, including the war you are discussing here. I think Lemmy could be a place where I get anticapitalists and antiliberals view on these subject.
I just mean to inform you that your behavior discredit yourself so much to me that I am more skeptical about the position you defend after reading you than before.
To me there are several possible situation here :
you are not talking to people like me here on this public space, but to another specific group I don’t identify. Then ok, keep on, I am sorry I disturbed you.
your are getting angry and (maybe legitimatelyly) being an jerk to someone here. I think this is useless, and make you look more like an asshole than the person you where hating on.
you are talking to people you already agree with by just I showing belonging to this community by being toxic to outsiders. Than you don’t like like an asshole, you are an asshole. (I don’t think this is the case though.)
you are talking to indecisive person like me, hoping to bring your understanding to the public debate to help people like me understand. Then, I just think you should know that to me, you are doing it wrong. Wrong enough to be counterproductive.
Sorry for the long post, hope you understand what I mean !
Ok so let’s reset then. What are you indecisive about and what would you like to understand? While this person would not speak to me in good faith you appear very willing to.
Having a choice between the Ukrainians and the Russian Empire (self-certified genocidal and literally fascist project) I still chose Ukrainians. Let alone the fact that my place is in the pipeline for Russian invasion, just after Moldova and Prybaltyka.
Every Russian politician, oligarch, soldier, agent, troll or useful idiot stopped or scared away by the Ukrainians is one less to deal with, when our time comes.
This does not support your position that they are “self certified genocidal” and "fascist. What you have linked to quite explicitly states “the people are good, the government is bad”.
You are committing a form of soft holocaust denial when you misuse the term genocide to describe something that is objectively not a genocide. It’s extremely offensive to actual victims of genocide and very damaging when we have to raise the issue of real genocides.
Liberals have reduced the word “genocide” from a term describing one of the greatest evils we humans are capable of, to a meaningless buzzword.
They call everything a “genocide”, except for actual genocides like the Rohingya genocide or the Zionist colonization of Palestine, which they completely ignore.
The holocaust has nothing to do with this. In fact, its kind of funny that you brijg it up, because the holocaust is treated as the worst genocide ever, when the vast majority of people killed by Nazi Germany were ethnic slavs and Russians.
Distorting the meaning of the term genocide is well recognised as soft holocaust denial and stating this just shows how little you have ever read about the topic of holocaust denial and the muddying of the meaning of the word genocide.
and the term “soft holocaust denial” is complete nonsense.
I think you need to learn where the origin of the word genocide comes from. The word was developed in direct response to the holocaust by Raphäel Lemkin in 1944. The word did not exist before then.
You can not disconnect the word genocide from its origin as a word that was specifically created to prevent people from being able to deny the holocaust, a huge amount of effort was put into making sure the holocaust would be extremely difficult to revise and/or forget by contorting it into something other than what it was.
When you misuse it, you are directly taking part in misusing an important word in describing and defending the holocaust, developed specifically for the purposes of preventing holocaust denial.
It is an action the helps holocaust deniers by changing the meaning of the word genocide. It is soft holocaust denial.
I really don’t think that’s a constructive response to someone pointing out you’re doing soft holocaust denial. It’s pretty concerning behaviour actually. Weakening and misusing words like genocide and fascism actively helps fascists.
Either be accepted as a trusted source of knowledge or insight
This is a very liberal attitude. CNN is a “trusted source of knowledge or insight” to millions of people but should it be? Absolutely fucking not.
The merit of what is being said and the evidence presented stands on its own, regardless of the source it is coming from. You should just content on merit, not on institutions and positions with manufactured prestige.
This whole mindset is what leads people to blindly believing anything they see from xyz source even when those sources put out mountains and mountains of absolute bullshit all the time.
In this very thread you have lied more than once, linking to content from russian state media with the claim that it says something it does not. That is a fact and not at all “ad hominem”. Debatebro rubbish also became cringe at least a decade ago.
This was Google translated, but I think it gets the same meaning:
Further denazification of this mass of the population consists in re-education, which is achieved by ideological repression (suppression) of Nazi attitudes and strict censorship
If I am anticipating your line of thought correctly, this quote should clarify and disproves that this journalist wants to kill the Ukrainian population. That is a bald-faced lie. On top of that, this is an opinion piece in the news. State run or not, it is not an official position of the Russian government.
What you are doing here is a form of gish-galloping. If I had the capacity to debunk everyone who says “Russia is committing genocide!” (of which there are countless), then I should be the UN’s top investigator. Maybe bring up a specific example?
But what’s funny is even in that article, at least three people, including the Senior Legal Counsel of the Human Rights Watch are quoted saying that the evidence for genocide is insufficient.
Their thinking is theirs, as well. I neither impose my perspective, nor accept other views at a face value. One need to earn my respect and trust first.
Do you know what thread you are in? This thread changed the topic from Pink Floyd to whether or not Russia is self-admittedly genocidal. So if you want to go back to Pink Floyd, you are changing the topic again.
I answered your question. The document I linked convinced me that Russian Federation has clear intent to wipe out Ukrainians as an ethnic and political entity. 8 months later, an in context of “genocide checklist” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide) compared with Russian actions and propaganda, I am even more convinced.
Mind the fact that I present my perspective and factors that influenced it, not any kind of absolute truth. So feel free to ignore it.
As for the interpretation, it is your job, not mine. As you can see in this sub-thread, the same documents can bring various conclusions, depending on the mind, doing interpretation.
It’s not just “psyops” how can you not see that? There is literally no political opposition in the country anymore. It is far right regime that has shut down all opposition and created a scenario in which anyone that isn’t remotely in line with exactly what the regime wants now ends up on an assassination list.
Dismissing it as just “psyops” is a defence of a very clear and inarguable act of fascist terror. By dismissing it we would be normalising the act of putting people on assassination lists for saying extremely mild things that a government dislikes.
Ukraine is acting worse than Israel and people are actively defending and normalising it.
Ukraine now gets a free pass for literally everything because HURR DURR RUSSIA BAD! That was made official when Amnesty retracted their report about unethical Ukranian war tactics this month because people freaked out that they would DARE criticise anything about Ukraine. I’m convinced that they can literally open up an extermination camp for Russian POWs with gas chambers and the West will find a way to spin that as either “they need it to defeat Russia” or “Russians are even worse so that makes it okay”, you know, the arguments they used to smear the Amnesty report.
And these are the people who accuse us (socialists) of “whataboutism”.
I respect your perspective, even if I do not share it.
not a shred of self awareness was detected
Zero class analysis. Typically american. Those of us in more class conscious countries can see that this is different when one class does it vs the other.
When the bourgeoisie do it they do it to perform the maximum acts of violence and exploitation upon the workers.
When the proletariat does it they do it to perform the maximum acts of repression upon the bourgeoisie, with the intent on their complete abolition.
One is the abolition of exploitation and the other is the ramping up and climax of exploitation. Can you see the difference between these two things or do you just go through life pretending class isn’t actually a thing?
When slaves rose up an murdered their exploiters, preventing political opposition with the use of guns were they in the wrong for abolishing that form of exploitation? I am going to assume you don’t think so but I could be wrong. Why then do you think the working classes should not prevent political opposition from the people exploiting us?
Didn’t you say you were an anarchist before? Anarchist theory is 100% in favour of completely repressing the bourgeoisie through use of violent force and ruthlessly preventing the political opposition to anarchy as well. Are you just not an anarchist then? Because if you’re against that then you’re literally just a liberal, you do not believe in a fundamental principle of either anarchist or socialist theory. Anarchy is NOT “let anyone do what they want even the exploiters” lmao. I was an anarchist for 25 years before moving over to marxism-leninism.
You love writing paragraphs lol.
I never said i was an anarchist or any ideology. why are you so obsessed with attacking teams/cults that aren’t your own. Can you believe in things without supporting other people blindly just because that wave your flag or wear your hat?
Putin isn’t bombing Ukraine because its oppressing his country lmao and its been doing all that fascist shit, assassinating people in other countries + in Russia and stopping all opposition for decades. Its a far right christian nationalist country not the USSR
You’re fucking around a lot here. You’re clearly a liberal participating in bad faith. They are neither teams nor cults, they are political goals and understanding a person’s political goals is key in analysing their positions and intentions accurately. My attitude and the way I talk to an anarchist is completely different to how I talk to a communist or a liberal, for good reasons. I share much in common with anarchists, I do not share much in common with liberals, the liberal ideology is one of exploitation while the socialist and anarchist ideology is of abolishing exploitation.
Ukraine has fuck all to do with my comment lmao jog the fuck on. Stop changing the topic every other comment it makes it unbearably pointless to engage with you because you. I am not responding to an attempt to change topic unless you actually respond to me instead of avoiding questions and dodging around endlessly. Either talk to me respectfully and actually engage with the things I say or jog the fuck n and stop wasting my time.
Hey I do not care what your position is, but the sentence
Is this a joke ? You are being way more aggressive and engage way less than them in your whole post, but even in the very sentence where you are denouncing this very attitude. How could you expect anyone that does not already blindly agree with you to take you seriously ?
(TBH, this kind of behavior seems so absurd to me I almost feel like it has to be liberal strategy to make leftist look stupid, aggressive and impossible to reason with…)
No it’s not a joke. When I say “respectful” here I am referring to the respect afforded someone when you actually want them to engage with you. If you want someone to actually engage with the shit you say, then the bare minimum to receive that engagement is to reciprocate. That is good faith engagement between two people regardless of tone. If I’m going to talk to the other side, the baseline for that conversation to not become highly aggressive is to actually talk instead of fucking around dodging every single question and then going for the topic change and expecting me to continue engaging after they clearly did not engage with me.
“You’re being aggressive”. Of course my tone is grumpy after someone has intentionally dodging every single word I say who is now self-admittedly not part of any “leftist” ideology whatsoever that this instance is supposed to be about. Their pattern of behaviour is synonymous with wreckers, their intent here is solely to fuck with a leftist project and do harm or mischief in whatever ways they can come up with.
I’d rather talk to someone that insults me while actually genuinely responding to the things I say than talk to someone that engages in this kind of weasel behaviour, it is far far worse and far more damaging to any sense of community. It functions to generate enormous amounts of distrust between a community and a naive modteam that continually puts up with the more damaging behaviour by affording it far more leeway than it deserves.
OK sorry I was a bit aggresive myself. What I mean is I am someone who is here to listen to different perspectives than what western libertarian media explains me. I think I am open minded and ready to changee/adjust my view on different subject, including the war you are discussing here. I think Lemmy could be a place where I get anticapitalists and antiliberals view on these subject.
I just mean to inform you that your behavior discredit yourself so much to me that I am more skeptical about the position you defend after reading you than before.
To me there are several possible situation here :
Sorry for the long post, hope you understand what I mean !
Ok so let’s reset then. What are you indecisive about and what would you like to understand? While this person would not speak to me in good faith you appear very willing to.
Having a choice between the Ukrainians and the Russian Empire (self-certified genocidal and literally fascist project) I still chose Ukrainians. Let alone the fact that my place is in the pipeline for Russian invasion, just after Moldova and Prybaltyka.
Every Russian politician, oligarch, soldier, agent, troll or useful idiot stopped or scared away by the Ukrainians is one less to deal with, when our time comes.
When did this happen?
Latest version I know, 3rd of April, 2022
https://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html
This does not support your position that they are “self certified genocidal” and "fascist. What you have linked to quite explicitly states “the people are good, the government is bad”.
You are committing a form of soft holocaust denial when you misuse the term genocide to describe something that is objectively not a genocide. It’s extremely offensive to actual victims of genocide and very damaging when we have to raise the issue of real genocides.
Liberals have reduced the word “genocide” from a term describing one of the greatest evils we humans are capable of, to a meaningless buzzword.
They call everything a “genocide”, except for actual genocides like the Rohingya genocide or the Zionist colonization of Palestine, which they completely ignore.
The holocaust has nothing to do with this. In fact, its kind of funny that you brijg it up, because the holocaust is treated as the worst genocide ever, when the vast majority of people killed by Nazi Germany were ethnic slavs and Russians.
Distorting the meaning of the term genocide is well recognised as soft holocaust denial and stating this just shows how little you have ever read about the topic of holocaust denial and the muddying of the meaning of the word genocide.
I dont care what you and your buddies have recognized, and the term “soft holocaust denial” is complete nonsense.
It’s a real term whether you think it’s nonsense or not
I think you need to learn where the origin of the word genocide comes from. The word was developed in direct response to the holocaust by Raphäel Lemkin in 1944. The word did not exist before then.
You can not disconnect the word genocide from its origin as a word that was specifically created to prevent people from being able to deny the holocaust, a huge amount of effort was put into making sure the holocaust would be extremely difficult to revise and/or forget by contorting it into something other than what it was.
When you misuse it, you are directly taking part in misusing an important word in describing and defending the holocaust, developed specifically for the purposes of preventing holocaust denial.
It is an action the helps holocaust deniers by changing the meaning of the word genocide. It is soft holocaust denial.
Most Jews in Polish territory back then were of Polish nationality.
Sue me.
I really don’t think that’s a constructive response to someone pointing out you’re doing soft holocaust denial. It’s pretty concerning behaviour actually. Weakening and misusing words like genocide and fascism actively helps fascists.
Removed by mod
This is a very liberal attitude. CNN is a “trusted source of knowledge or insight” to millions of people but should it be? Absolutely fucking not.
The merit of what is being said and the evidence presented stands on its own, regardless of the source it is coming from. You should just content on merit, not on institutions and positions with manufactured prestige.
This whole mindset is what leads people to blindly believing anything they see from xyz source even when those sources put out mountains and mountains of absolute bullshit all the time.
In this very thread you have lied more than once, linking to content from russian state media with the claim that it says something it does not. That is a fact and not at all “ad hominem”. Debatebro rubbish also became cringe at least a decade ago.
“If you want to change MY mind you gotta be an authority figure or threaten me!” — a free thinker
This was Google translated, but I think it gets the same meaning:
If I am anticipating your line of thought correctly, this quote should clarify and disproves that this journalist wants to kill the Ukrainian population. That is a bald-faced lie. On top of that, this is an opinion piece in the news. State run or not, it is not an official position of the Russian government.
I never confront a guy pointing a gun in my direction. ;-) So think whatever you wish to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source. I think you bought some kind of bs and you refuse to see how backwards it has you thinking.
Your thinking is yours, obviously. I have no problem with it.
What you are doing here is a form of gish-galloping. If I had the capacity to debunk everyone who says “Russia is committing genocide!” (of which there are countless), then I should be the UN’s top investigator. Maybe bring up a specific example?
But what’s funny is even in that article, at least three people, including the Senior Legal Counsel of the Human Rights Watch are quoted saying that the evidence for genocide is insufficient.
Their thinking is theirs, as well. I neither impose my perspective, nor accept other views at a face value. One need to earn my respect and trust first.
Neither are https://myrotvorets.center/ statements official position of the Ukrainian government.
So, either both or none…
I’ve never heard of this website so seems like an unrelated whataboutism.
Mate, the whole OP is about that site. Are you sure you know what thread you are in?
Do you know what thread you are in? This thread changed the topic from Pink Floyd to whether or not Russia is self-admittedly genocidal. So if you want to go back to Pink Floyd, you are changing the topic again.
What am I looking for in here?
I answered your question. The document I linked convinced me that Russian Federation has clear intent to wipe out Ukrainians as an ethnic and political entity. 8 months later, an in context of “genocide checklist” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide) compared with Russian actions and propaganda, I am even more convinced.
Mind the fact that I present my perspective and factors that influenced it, not any kind of absolute truth. So feel free to ignore it.
I can’t read Russian. Which paragraph describes the genocidal intent?
Here’s an English translation, if Google or Yandex doesn’t work for you. https://uacrisis.org/en/justification-of-genocide-russia-has-openly-declared-its-desire-to-exterminate-ukrainians-as-a-nation
As for the interpretation, it is your job, not mine. As you can see in this sub-thread, the same documents can bring various conclusions, depending on the mind, doing interpretation.
I understand that. But which part of it do you think confesses genocidal intent?