Its like Hillary walking into a working class kitchen for the first time.
They’ve been shielded from even critical support of China and other AES for so long they literally, not figuratively, literally cannot process that people exist that have beliefs that aren’t Reddit Approved. They immediately assume it’s bots or wumao. Human beings can’t possibly hold these beliefs, so they must be Oriental hordes or actual robots.
Right because not being a shill for Xi makes me “pro-west.” Please.
Its not about being a shill for Xi. Its about defending the country that went from having a 20% literacy rate to a country with its own space station in the span of 70 years. With railways and infrastructure that outshines those of the American empire, the richest nation in the history of the be world.
You may not call it socialism but it is still worth defending. My family and friends in China see improvement and growth before their very eyes. Dirt roads are now high speed rail. How many working class Americans can say things have gotten better in the last few decades? That they can afford to dine out more often, that they can afford a bigger apartment? How many can say their children are getting better educated, that schools are improving, that their extra curricular sports programs have gotten funding? How many can say that they’ve seen a new hospital built in a lower income area, or at all? I know households where the grandparents grew up literally illiterate, like animals they weren’t given an education, without running water or electricity, and in leaner months would have to skip meals to pay the landlord. Today their bilingual grand children sit next to them in a home that they own, learning physics from a Livestream from the Chinese Space Station. Can you even conceive that level of improvement to a life, let alone a million, let alone a billion?
And the sheltered Reddit libs cannot understand that people would defend that. They cannot understand why people would defend that. They must be shills, there’s no way anyone could genuinely defend a system that improved the lives of a billion people and abolished poverty. Our memes depict Xi as Winnie the Pooh, so those defending China must be robots or paid shills. No-one would actually defend China right?
But they have a lotta cameras
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where do you live that you have privacy? the moon?
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Nice dodge there
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Of course it matters. When you name the country we can actually compare using real data instead of this wishywashy bullshit.
Lol, this is the most pathetic attempt to not admit you were wrong I’ve ever seen.
How’s your girlfriend in Canada?
Didn’t actually name the country huh?
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Hope you’re not planning on visiting the UK or any American metropole anytime soon either then
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No it isn’t, that’s laughable. The US has far and away the worst most heinous surveillance of its citizens, not to mention the citizens of other nations as well. Try reading a summary of what Snowden revealed about the US state surveillance programs for instance
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you think it’s better that the US tries to hide all of its nefarious (and frankly worse) spying? what the hell???
I’m not from China but I’ve been there and it isn’t hard to speak with people from China to learn that it’s not some dystopia. US is hands down far more of a police state.
I know Edward Snowden is a libertarian or some dumb shit but man he really did get himself exiled for nothing.
“I assume that the enemies designated by my rulers are worse than my admittedly very wicked rulers, based entirely on testimony from those same wicked rulers.”
Snowden got citizenship in Russia for his entire family, a lot of money from authoring a book and other media deals, and worldwide fame as a hero
He may not have achieved his goal but his consolation prize is not bad
Yeah it’s certainly much better than for example, Assange, but it’s wild to me that people just gloss over the US surveillance state at this point
I legit can’t tell if this is a joke lol. Which country do you live in that doesn’t have a lot of cameras? I have awful news for you if you live in the US or the UK.
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this is a hilarious thing to say if you live in any western country
preach
All the Chinese people in China who I totally really know in real life for sure. Those Chinese people in China that I totally really know all say they love love Xi. It’s totally because they really really want to and not because dissent isn’t allowed. They totally didn’t start making grade schoolers go to several extra hours of school a day to learn to worship Xi 2 years ago btw. Also there is no air pollution in Beijing. Did I mention I totally know some Chinese people. You’re all a bunch of sheltered white libs…not like me. I mean yeah, I am a lib, only 15, white, and I do live in my parents basement…but I know things, things that you don’t. There’s no way other people have any experience of the world so you have to believe, because I pretend…I mean DO, I do know some Chinese people in China and they are Chinese. They totally love their Chinese life in China where everyone has 120% literacy rate and reads 5 astrophysics books on their way to work in Beijing where there’s no air pollution in China.
…China
“I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”
Sorry, which country is brainwashing people to worship their country from childhood? I forget.
Who said shit about worshiping the US? You guys are so pedantic. You are all worried about exact language when it comes to yourselves, but take all kinds of liberties when it comes to others. You don’t even have any goal other than being an asshole. there’s no actual discussion to be had. You just consistently make wild, inaccurate speculation in order to (try to) enrage people. You’re so far off the mark though that it’s completely impotent. Have good life auto-fellating your self-perceived intellect…
You said (baseless) shit about Chinese kids being forced into worshiping Xi
Go on, put two and two together as to why I might post Western kids being brainwashed into worshiping the US after that.
show us your penis
The kid is 15, let’s not
Like I had to do a double-take because there is no way a sane person can write:
And then say:
Immediately afterwards, like its beyond imagination, I initially thought they were elaborating and calling us 15 year old white basement dwellers.
Fucking sad, the level of highschool education in america.
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yeah no kidding buddy. glad you’re able to do some self reflection
It really just blows your mind that there are real people with real opinions based on their life experiences that don’t reflect your biases, doesn’t it.
This person is literally a white 15 year old and has no life experience
It’s just evident that you don’t actually have that real life experience. This is not what Chinese people say when not under duress. Something like 80% of Chinese people not living in China (read, who aren’t forced to support the government) disapprove of the Chinese government. I’ve lived and worked with Chinese people. They don’t say what you say they’re saying. I’ve lived and worked in communist countries. It’s not this socialist utopia you make it out to be. So yeah, it’s pretty clear you don’t have any idea what you’re saying. You keep talking about “Experience” when it’s obvious you don’t have any…I do. So fuck off with your fantastical agenda pushing bullshit.
Rich people who can afford to leave and settle permanently in a foreign land disapprove of Communist home country, shocking!
Were you with the CIA or…?
Thanks for telling me what 80% [citations needed] of all Chinese people (not counting the vast majority of them because they live in China) think. I’m sure they also appreciate being spoken for. Maybe people who like living in China don’t see a reason to leave? Seems like a pretty obvious explanation, even if I ignore the statistic being direct from your ass.
Your “real life experience” is a pretty funny idea too, seeing as how you apparently think that all 1.4 billion Chinese people are so effectively controlled that even though they all hate living there they will never let their friends and family know. Seems like a fantasy to me. I could say that about the US “all Americans hate the us and want to leave but they aren’t allowed to say so, so they pretend to like it” it would be patently stupid and there would be no evidence of it, so it’d be on par with your claims.
As far as a utopia, no one said that but you, it’s just a strawman argument. It is impossible to make an argument that material conditions for people in China are not improving at one of the most rapid rates in the world.
Posted with zero irony from someone with the username “Jesus” who is pushing the standard US state department line like he’s worldly. show us your dick
It really just blows your mind that there are real people with real opinions based on their life experiences that don’t reflect your biases.
^That’s not a retorical question anymore btw.
Go to Sydney Chinatown and ask them what the opinion of China is and 80% will be pro China not against.
Strike up a conversation in Mandarin with a line cook or waitress, any one of the working class.
Having to pretend to dislike China is a defense mechanism, otherwise the cumskins will turn on you like you’re a subhuman or a spy because they all have attitudes like you, which I do get reinforces the notion that overseas Chinese dislike China. But hate crimes against Asians are on the rise, so better safe than sorry.
We are not some brainwashed masses at the beck and call of the CPC, liberals like you just don’t understand the concept of critical support. You’re either 100% behind something or 100% against it.
You’re really bad at this.
Waste of a username.
A literal socialist god, spent on this prick
chyna
The Virgin coherent well structured fact-based essay v.s. The Chad passive aggressive unhinged NATO rambling
Can I see ur hog?
If you are only 15, living in your parent’s basement is normal. Also, this forum is for and by adults, please leave.
Dude I am Chinese. I was born in China, my family is from Tianjin and Wuhan. My grandfather grew up illiterate. His comrades were mostly illiterate. One of my grandfather’s comrades I call 爷爷 was the one that went from a peasant family to living in a flat he owns.
你认识多少华人？
Ah yes, because the only way we could possibly admire the achievements of the Chinese state is because we were being paid to do so. Fuck off, creep.
No I think you’re just in an echochamber that didn’t wanna go full doomer because of how capitalist the entire world is. You wanted some hope for socialism so you clung onto China for false hope.
With the alternative being, what, exactly? Flaccid, impotent doomerism?
Their name is Catholic Socialist, so probably yes lmao
Well the world is almost all neoliberal hell so maybe that’d be better than supporting a fascistic hellscape because they have socialist aesthetics.
I support Cuba and various socialist movements… I don’t pretend Xi is a well-meaning person.
Xi isn’t China lib, and quit using the word fascism until you learn what it actually means
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Being a dictator is when you’re appointed by a democratic body and then there is a confirmation vote and the more democratic the body is the more of a dictator you are.
Maybe you should spend like literally any time at all learning about Chinese politics and system of governance because this is flatly untrue.
For your consideration: https://archive.is/RlAtG
Ofc indoctrinated citizens think they’re a democracy, they also probably have different understanding of democracy. America isn’t a democracy either but people are brainwashed into believing it is. Most of the Americans that choose “not a democracy” in that poll are Republicans that’ll say “democracy is mob-rule, we’re a Republic!”
Does this look democratic to you?:
Nothing about Xi indicates that he isn’t well meaning, and much more importantly the lives of hundreds of millions of people have been vastly improved during his governance as head of a dedicated communist party.
If you think the CCP is genuinely dedicated to communism I cannot take you seriously.
It’s CPC and of course they are, there’s no reason to believe otherwise apart from being a dumb little racist baby who thinks only white people can do socialism properly.
What are you on about, it’s both?
Maybe the fact it’s a dictatorship with no power to the people? Tell me, what Chinese factory workers own their means of production?
Call me a racist? Cuba and Burkina Faso are true attempts at socialism, while the USSR under Stalin was not (Lenin was good though).
Oh hey it’s you again, I think you forgot to answer me in the other thread as well: what is your solution to the Ukranian puppet government’s ongoing genoicide in the Donbas?
Honestly if Russia ONLY invaded Donbas I think I would support that. But you guys are clearly warmongerers that want as many dead Ukrainians as possible.
Few people here think that the CPC is “genuinely dedicated to communism”. It is a party with millions of members, including communists, liberals, nationalists, and others (happy to chat about the specific major factions in the party if you’re interested). Many in the party are not ardent communists, and have mediocre to poor historical and political literacy from the perspective of a lot of the Marxist nerds on here.
Some people look at the party and see “hey they’re called communists, and many of them are communists, sure as hell better than whatever is going on in the US or wherever” and kinda hop on board with some enthusiasm that way.
I think they’re pretty clearly dedicated to communism. It’s a long process and a lot of work, especially in a hostile world. Anything I read where they state their intentions perfectly matches their actions. The challenge will be when the actual expropriations begin. The capitalist backlash will be extremely violent.
Hey, at least I didn’t say that most communists that support China are doing it because they want to be contrarian. That would be an incredibly ignorant statement to make.
Right? All these fucking tankies don’t even believe that there’s a current genocide against the Mongolians
Bunch of fucking insane nutcases here
Opinion discarded
https://www.telesurenglish.net/opinion/China-Is-Most-Promising-Hope-for-Third-World-Fidel-20171128-0017.html
Dunked on by the man himself!
Cuba’s stated goal is communism. They’ve started to change a bit in recent years, but until recently that was the official position.
For me it’s like 5% desperately clinging onto China for false hope, 20% not wanting global thermonuclear war, and 75% the global poverty alleviation they’ve been achieving both domestically and worldwide.
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Even beginning to compare the fucking mass transportation and enslavement of Caribbean peoples and Africans and the genocide of the native Americans to China is an unbelievable take even from liberals, holy fucking shit. If my brain conjured that up I would send myself to the gulag to punish it. Mass poverty alleviation is actually enslavement? Yeah, how dare the Communist Party of China bind all those hundreds of millions of people to this mortal coil by dramatically increasing life expectancy among the population. Devoting hundreds of billions of dollars in a hundred countries to building infrastructure and helping other countries use and develop their own resources, rather than having all the raw resources be shipped away to some European country for manufacturing so they can sell it right back to the people they exploit, is actually exploitation itself.
The impressive thing about China is that it explicitly DIDN’T require the imperialism of over half the global population to create the world’s biggest economy, it was achieved through the efficiencies and foresight of state-guided economics and Marxist theory. Instead of creating new, arcane mortgage scams to generate profit conjured out of thin air and nearly shatter modern capitalism in the process (2008).
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So you’re literally saying that the slavery youre referring to is… poverty alleviation???
Huh? What slaves? Where are they getting the slaves from?
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Why don’t you just tell us then. Go ahead, educate us.
Do you have any evidence that slavery is practiced in China? What is your source (and why is it Adrian Zenz)?
You have 60 seconds to post a source
Well you clearly don’t because you are refusing to post any sources.
What do you propose people do?
Also,
catholic
Not support a capitalist hellscape.
Is my religion a joke to you?
I don’t think the world’s largest pedophile ring is any laughing matter
This is religious discrimination, is that not against your rules? I’ll be reporting either way
The fact that the Vatican operates as a massive, international pedo ring is an empirical fact. I don’t give a shit about the theology one way or another.
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Nooooo anything but reporting us to the mods
no, I’m pretty sure it’s against our rules not to call a provable pedophile ring for what it is. that’s not really much to do with religion, though.
Lmao criticizing the Catholic church for harboring pedophiles – a well-established fact – is in no way discrimination
this is the post that convinced me that this is a bit lol, amazing work
As an ex-catholic, yes lmao
I prefer the term recovering catholic
yes
😔
I thought your name was ironic, lmao.
Didn’t the Rerum Novarum strictly reject socialism? Affirms the right to private property? Or was it the one time the pope was fallible?
I don’t know. Jesus did not.
Its one of the foundational documents of modern Catholicism how could you not have read the part where the pope says worker unions ok, but socialism is bad?
Look, they are what I, when I was a Catholic, would describe as a ‘bad Catholic’. Many liberal Catholics operate the same way, with a perverse attachment to the Church as it could be instead of seeing the Church as it has been and continues to be, that isn’t to say that good things don’t come out of the Church (hospitals, nursing homes, monasteries, etc), just that they are better the further they are away from the central worship and money-making operation. When I was a rigorous Catholic (10-15) I was a very conservative Catholic because I read the doctrine, listened to the scripture, and understood the scripture and how it ought to be interpreted.
If was during my confirmation when I was continuing my theological study, when I stumbled upon Aquinas, Hume, Kant, Nietzsche and other metaphysical philosophers and it struck me that not only was my understanding of Catholicism incredibly shallow, but it confirmed my increasing suspicion that everyone else’s understanding of Catholicism was also, if not more, shallow. Upon reading, especially people like Hume and Kant, it became clear that not only did I not actually have very rigorous grounds for what I believed, but that in order to be a ‘good Catholic’ you had to be a ‘bad person’ and that ‘bad Catholics’ were constantly having to deal with this juxtaposition, fighting against the structure of a Church that wants their money, but doesn’t actually want them or their ideas.
It wasn’t that they were ‘bad Catholics’ it’s that they were ‘good people’ attempting to be ‘Catholics’. That’s when I rejected the entire thing and tried to start from scratch to the best of my abilities. It’s been a long road and I still don’t know where I will end up ideologically, but I do know that I will not make the mistake of seeing ‘what could be’ for ‘what is’.
A “capitalist hellscape” that has seen steady improvement year over year for the workers and peasants for like 50+ years?
Yes your religion is a joke. All religions are of course but yours is especially silly and also has a pedophile problem.
Go back to r/atheism. Why did you liberals federate with Lemmy in the first place?
Catholicsm is no more pedophilic than any other religion.
I can’t, sorry, reddit banned me for being a little too aggressively anti Zionist
If it was up to me we wouldn’t have federated, nothing you people have to post is very interesting
Sorry buddy I know it hurts your feelings but it’s at least a little more pedophilic than some religions
Catholicsm is no more pedophilic than any other religion.
good point, in that case it is good to be catholic
Maybe
cw
rape
less kids and I’d like your religion more.
You don’t think atheists and every other religion rapes kids?
You are part of a cabal of molestation. Your leaders conspire to molest children and cover it up. The church is rotten to the core. Every priest and bishop either is or is covering for a molester.
Nah it’s just that your fake blasphemy against gnosis rapes kids more than other world religions lol
https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
I would never bow to the Bishop of Rome
Give me a single piece of evidence backing this claim up.
No, but almost all of the openly catholic folks I’ve met suck. Also, the eastern orthodox church got it right so idk.
https://www.google.com/search?q=china+capitalist
I’m giving you the oportunity to pick an actual source. Pick one of those search results you like and send it to me.
https://hbr.org/2021/05/americans-dont-know-how-capitalist-china-is
Literally just linking a google search as a citation oh my god. That’s even worse than linking wikipedia
Nah, its not an echo chamber. Im not a big fan of china but its obvious you’re talking out of your ass based on habit and conditioning
You could have just told us you don’t understand memes
“false hope”
I think someone’s projecting a little lmao, sorry your religion is primarily known for protecting pedophiles, but you don’t need to assume everyone else is having a crisis of faith.
okay, lemmy user CatholicSocialist
Ok weeb, go jerk off to Xi Jinping’s wikifeet or whatever it is you do for fun.
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Fucking disgusting link. You liberals are gross (yes, you are the real liberals for supporting China)
You now:
You literally one comment ago:
Shit on balls is a bit grosser than feet.
Yeah we’re all libs but no where near as
as you are for supporting 
Lmao you admit it.
Here’s the crazy thing… I can hate America AND China at the same time 😱
All of gods creatures are beautiful you fake Christian.
Fake Christian and fake socialist tbh
oh no, we’re fully aware of how dire things are globally. but that doesn’t mean we have to swallow propaganda whole and go “thank you, may I have another?” it’s a deeply servile attitude.
🥺
A shill is someone paid to advocate for something or who has a material interest in fooling others.
China is a capitalist country. I don’t disagree with that. However, if you get your head out of your ass and actually read some theory, you will realize that the form of capitalism that is being practiced in China is actually a left-liberal classical capitalism, fundementally grounded in principles of industrial growth discussed by Adam Smith, David Ricardo and Karl Marx, that, if it overtakes the U.S. as global hegemon, actually has the potential to transition into a socialist society.
Their poverty reduction, infrastructure building, and general wheeling and dealing with underdeveloped countries is laudable and far outstrips the history and ability of the West, and while I don’t really like their foreign policy stances, particularly on MLM issues, refusing to actually analyze what is going on there and what has the potential to go on there is a sure sign of the typical, unread, left-com martyrdom complex where you have the audacity to criticize the projects of others without ever having done anything particularly productive or revolutionary yourself.
LMFAO I’ve read plenty of Marx and it clearly does not.
Maybe tinges of social democracy in a fast-growing economy accompanied by mass human rights abuse.
Ah yes because Xi is doing it out of the goodness of his heart, totally not getting anything out of it like imperialist influence in Africa and interest money.
your source chain:
mainstream articles, citing -> the victims of communism fund, citing -> adrien zens, citing -> “an anonymous source told me bro”
go actually follow up on this shit you read
7% of 10-15 year olds are child laborers in China but keep pretending shit isn’t happening. “If a western website says it is must be false!”
The 7% statistic seems credible to me at a glance, though somewhat dated. The data are from Peking University’s 2010 China Family Panel Study, not RFA or Zenz pulling numbers out of their ass
https://docs.iza.org/dp9976.pdf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Family_Panel_Studies
I’ll wager this statistic is declining over time, but I don’t know. I’m about to go to bed or I would do a deeper literature search.
For me the more important question is: Why? Why is China like this? Why did China liberalize under Deng? What is the worldwide political and economic context? Is child labor in China possibly a difficult problem to address, when we look at the whole situation? What measures have been taken so far? I hope you are at least wondering.
I’m no expert, but I’ll point out two things:
1 ) Not long ago, China was still dirt poor and fighting tooth and nail to industrialize and modernize as fast as possible. China’s economic power today is a fairly recent development.
2 ) China liberalized in order to survive in a hostile global economy. Liberalizing brought in a huge influx of foreign investment and industry expertise. The alternative was to be politically and economically strangled like most other socialist states have been. There’s only so much you can do with a self-contained economy in a hostile world.
Source?
Marx was incorrect about alot of socio-political things, in particular his specific model of social revolution. You clearly believe this otherwise you wouldn’t still be a Catholic.
However his historical model for capitalist industrial development is sound, and eventually the internal contradictions will have to be solved, one way or another. My hope that it isn’t a violent struggle that overthrows the CPC, but it very well may be. It’s either that, aggressive internal reform (which wouldn’t be the first time that occured) or they will take a neo-liberal turn themselves and then I will re-evaluate my position, which will also be reflected in the mass degradation of living standards if they take that route. And who knows, that may happen. But it hasn’t yet.
‘Mass human rights abuses’. Ah yes, the country with a 90% approval rating even by Western studies is the one participating in mass human rights abuses. How is Zenz doing these days?
Who the fuck ever said it was out of the goodness of his heart? It’s for multi-polarity, resource access and ally building. Again, as critical as I am in that regard, it is the diplomatic move to make if you are in China’s global position. They don’t need to shake the boat, because ultimately time is on their side. They are very cynical in that regard.
Lol ‘imperialist influence in Africa’, where are the military bases? Where is the limited occupations, training camps, invasions and coups? Heaven forbid the Chinese build the things that they are paid to build. No please, keep spouting off IMF talking points.
could you be more specific, because if you’re talking about what I think you are ooh boy do I have a pasta for you
You can just send me the pasta and I’ll read it and see if it makes sense from my general understanding of Marx and Engels.
lol nice try
Consider:
https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/china-forgives-debt-for-17-african-nations/news-story/28ab7f45440142634ff8efd0360b2fec
https://fair.org/home/why-comparing-chinese-africa-investment-to-western-colonialism-is-no-joke/
Ok, they’re nicer than the west, that doesn’t mean it’s not still imperialism. Most of the time they don’t forgive debt and when they do it’s corrupt; they’re trying to win them over to become satellite states one day.
Almost like some kind of unfalsifiable orthodoxy is being used to make the judgement here
What do you mean when you say their debt forgiveness is “corrupt”? And why do you believe that they want to win them over as “satellite states” and not as regular-old geopolitical allies?
What about it makes it imperialism to you? Do you see any difference at all between lending money for development projects and imperialism? How does forgiving loans facilitate economic domination of these places?
From that news.com australian article I posted: “But the concept of a Chinese “debt trap” has also been criticised, with a study in 2020 finding China had restructured or refinanced about $21 billion of debt in Africa between 2000 and 2019. The study also noted there was no evidence of “asset seizures”and that Chinese lenders had not used courts to enforce payments, or applied penalty interest rates to distressed borrowers.” For a go at economic imperialism, they don’t seem keen on putting the choke-hold on.
Should they instead be cultivating enemies that will try to destroy everything they’ve done to alleviate poverty?
So if you make your friend pay you back the $10 you lent them you’re imperialist, ok.
It’s more like your billionaire friends gives you a $100k loan to buy a house and expects you to pay them back with interest.
There’s no way this isn’t a bit.
if this guy turns out to be @LiberalSocialist in a tradsuit i’m gonna
I’m so convinced it’s them.
we’re so back
i mean i can see that being real
I’m not pro-west I just only believe the literal exact narrative pushed by the US state department and the entirety of bourgeoise-owned media.
Buddy you have no clue what you’re talking about.
Say something worth responding to at least. You choose to put “socialist” in your name yet you’re angry people here might defend a socialist country and not spew the bile fed to you by media that is literally owned or controlled by the bourgeoisie. It’s absurd.
Say what your problem is. Give me something to actually argue with instead of these non-answers.
I have like 200 comments from you crazy tankies in my inbox, do you think I have the time to write paragraphs to everyone?
learn to type faster liberal
you’ll never be able to make proper leftist memes if you can’t get that WPM up
I see you’ve had a run-in with our “Post”-based posting rules here. I could help explain them for you if you’d like?
I have no idea what this comment means.
Post Hog
HAHAHAHHAHAA HOLY FUCK, NEW SITE TAGLINE PLEASE!!!
Post in c/feedback and they’ll almost certainly add it
TBF if I had 200+ replies in my inbox over the span of a few hours I’d consider it coordinated harrassment.
This thread just blew up tbh, unlike anything I’ve seen here. Mostly, our news bulletin megathread sometimes breaks 1000 comments, when there’s big news happening. Most other threads never hit 500. This one seems like it was bait to draw in lib commenters from the wider lemmyverse after federation and it worked. The user in question came in pretty antagonistically and is replying to all the replies they got, so yeah it’s probably a lot of replies to deal with but they also brought it on themself and it wasn’t anything coordinated. I myself have been engaging with this person, but just the same way I would have argued with anybody else here that I disagreed with over the last 3ish years.
I checked their profile and they’ve been machinegun posting
comebacks for hours
Then you probably shouldn’t post a few dozen comments in this thread here on our home instance. Avoiding doing that should keep your inbox clean.
They’ve posted dozens in like 2 or 3 threads, not just here
L + bozo + slow typer + lib +
Hi there. Check my comment history. It’s no use arguing with these people who think they’re experts on China. Don’t waste so much time like I did.
Thank goodness you are, so you can tell us all about China from your position of expertise! Go on, give us your best materialist analysis of the current conditions of China, with reference to the surrounding literature and studies by Chinese economists! I need the enlightened take of a western China Understander!
I’m not an expert on China. Neither am I western.
That’s obvious!
Where r u from
You are absolutely correct! There is no use arguing with these dopey politically uneducated liberals who think that viewing MSNBC+breadtube a few times makes them experts on a particular subject.
Sure.
okay wtf are you talking about then?
How much did they pay you to say that?
CatholicSocialist I can help you just PM me a picture of your hog and I will divert the Hexbear bots from dunking on your dumbass…
Worship Gnosticism as preached by
or be burned alive you fucking heretic.
WTF does this even mean
It means this is god:
And this is his large adult son:
i haven’t seen spurdo demiurge in like 5 years, that’s a deep dive jpg right there
You people are very confusing.
we have an emote for that special feeling of bewilderment
Dumb fuck!
Who the fuck is the short chubby guy asshole?
honestly I have no clue either, maybe something to do with chapotraphouse? no one ever explains the inside jokes on hexbear lol
anyways in case you thought I was on your side
Not true, we totally do, you just have to ask! The emote is Matt Christman. He’s a leftist podcaster, much like the hosts of the podcast this site is centered around: Citations Needed
Christman is one of the hosts of a different podcast, one this site has never been associated with in any way, called Chapo Trap House.
this is what I mean, where did this bit even come from lmao
Which one? The citations needed one? The Christman emoji? Or the Gnosticism one?
Body shaming is banned on hexbear. Do better!
HERESY!!! You dare doubt St. Bhagavan Shree Matt Christman’s (PBUH) holy LARGE ADULTNESS? TRIAL BY MOUNTAIN DEW FOR THIS HERETIC!
Man you guys are weird.
Ah denial is but a pit stop on the road of acceptance, my devil worshipping brother in Satan!
Show me your dick.
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He’s one of the people from a podcast called Chapo Trap House, which is the podcast that inspired the subreddit /r/chapotraphouse. This lemmy instance formed for all of us to get together after that subreddit was banned by the Reddit admins for being too left wing. Let me know if you have any other questions about it and I’ll try to help you out, all irony aside.
What makes a country “socialist”?
A society where public ownership of the means of production, a state controlled by a politically organized proletariat, and production for societal use rather than for profit is the principal aspect (main body) of the economy.
Key term here is principal aspect. There is a weird phenomenon from both anti-communists as well as a lot of ultraleft and leftcom communists themselves of applying a “one drop rule” to socialism, where socialism is only socialism if it’s absolutely pure without a single internal contradiction. But no society in the history of humankind has been pure, they all contain internal contradictions and internal contradictions are necessary for one form of society to develop into the next.
If you applied that same logic to capitalism, then if there was any economic planning or public ownership, then capitalism would cease to be “true capitalism” and become “actually socialism”, which is an argument a lot of right-wing libertarians unironically make. The whole “not true capitalism” and “not true socialism” arguments are two sides of the same coin, that is, people weirdly applying an absolute purity standard to a particular economic system which is fundamentally impossible to exist in reality, so they then can declare their preferred system “has never truly been tried”. But it will never be tried ever because it’s an idealized form which cannot exist in concrete reality, actually-existing capitalism and socialism will always have internal contradictions within itself.
If no idealized form exists and all things contain internal contradictions within themselves, then the only way to define them in a consistent way is not to define them in terms of perfectly and purely matching up to that idealized form, but that description merely becoming the principal aspect in a society filled with other forms and internal contradictions within itself.
A capitalist society introducing some economic planning and public ownership doesn’t make it socialist because the principal aspect is still bourgeois rule and production for profit. This would mean the state and institutions carrying out the economic planning would be most influenced by the bourgeoisie and not by the working class, i.e. they would still behave somewhat privately, the “public ownership” would really be bourgeois ownership and the economic planning would be for the benefit of the bourgeoisie first and foremost.
A similar story in a socialist society with markets and private ownership. If you have a society dominated by public ownership and someone decides to open a shop, where do they get the land, the raw materials, permission for that shop, etc? If they get everything from the public sector, then they exist purely by the explicit approval by the public sector, they don’t have real autonomy. The business may be internally run privately but would be forced to fit into the public plan due to everything around them demanding it for their survival.
Whatever is the dominant aspect of society will shape the subordinated forms. You have to understand societies as all containing internal contradictions and seeking for what is the dominant form in that society that shapes subordinated forms, rather than through an abstract and impossible to realize idealized version of “true socialism”.
Countries like Norway may have things that seemingly contradict capitalism like large social safety nets for workers funded by large amounts of public ownership, but these came as concessions due to the proximity of Nordic countries to the USSR which pressured the bourgeoisie to make concessions with the working class. However, the working class and public ownership and economic planning never became the principal aspect of Norway. The bourgeoisie still remains in control, arguably with a weaker position, but they are still by principal aspect, and in many Nordic countries ever since the dissolution of the USSR, the bourgeoisie has been using that dominant position to roll back concessions.
The argument for China being socialist is not that China has fully achieved some pure, idealized form of socialism, but that China is a DOTP where public ownership alongside the CPC’s Five-Year plans remain the principal aspect of the economy and other economic organization is a subordinated form.
Deng Xiaoping Theory is not a rejection of the economic system the Soviets were trying to build but a criticism of the Soviet understanding socialist development. After the Soviets deemed they had sufficient productive forces to transition into socialism, they attempted to transition into a nearly pure socialist society within a very short amount of time, and then declared socialist construction was completed and the next step was to transition towards communism.
Deng Xiaoping Theory instead argues that socialism itself has to be broken up into development stages a bit like how capitalism also has a “lower” and “higher” phase, so does socialism. The initial stage is to the “primary stage” of underdeveloped socialism, and then the main goal of the communist party is to build towards the developed stage of socialism. The CPC disagreed that the Soviets had actually completed their socialist construction and trying to then build towards communism was rushing things far faster than what the level of productive forces of the country could sustain and inevitably would lead to such great internal contradictions in the economic system to halt economic development.
The argument was not a rejection of the Marxist or Marxist-Leninist understanding of what socialism is, but a disagreement over the development stages, viewing socialism’s development as much more gradual and a country may remain in the primary stage like China is currently in for a long, long time, Deng Xiaoping speculated even 100 years.
I recall reading somethings from Mao where he criticized the Marxian understanding of communism, but not from the basis of it being wrong, but it being speculative. He made the argument that Marx’s detailed analysis of capitalism was only possible because Marx lived in a capitalist society and could see and research its development in real time, therefore Mao was skeptical the current understanding of communism would remain forever, because when you actually try to construct it you would inevitably learn far more than you could speculate about in the future, have a much more detailed understanding of what it is in concrete reality and what its development stages look like.
In a sense, that’s the same position the modern CPC takes towards socialism, that the Soviets and Mao rushed into socialism due to geopolitical circumstances and did not have time to actually fully grasp what socialist development would look like in practice, and Deng Xiaoping Theory introduces the concept of the primary stage of socialism based on their experience actually trying to implement it under Mao.
Despite common misconception, the CPC’s position is indeed that China is currently socialist, not “will be socialist in 2049” or whatever. The argument is that China is in the primary stage of socialism, a system where socialist aspects of the political and economic system have become the main body but in a very underdeveloped form.
EDIT: just to be clear the above is by u/aimixin
I, in general, agree with all of this, you should be posting this at CatholicSocialist, not me. My general criticisms of Marx’s social revolutionary model are ones that he recognized himself later in life (and would be incorporated into Lenin’s labor aristocracy critiques as well), which is that it is the periphery proletariat and peasantry that has more revolutionary attitude and need to organize and create a social revolution. He just never actually published them, so I struggle to really call them a part of Marx’s ‘social revolution model’.
My general description of China as ‘left-liberal capitalist’ stems from the fact that while the party holds the vast majority share of political power in the country, many of those party members are members of bourgeoise, though not even close to a majority, with none of them making up the upper echelon of the party. However, notably, they are almost entirely made up of members of the industrial or petite-bourgeoise, not the FIRE or tech sectors, which is an unspeakably enormous improvement over the Western neoliberal model that fits incredibly neatly into Adam Smith’s idealized version of classical industrial capitalism described in the Wealth of Nations, which Marx saw as a clear and total upgrade to the feudal mode of production.
That being said, I am perfectly content to call China ‘first-stage socialism’ when not in mixed company, but ultimately these stages are rather arbitrary, and it will be seen what happens when China actually achieves it’s destiny and breaks the shackles put around it by the U.S. I generally am in good faith about it, as I have seen factory conditions all over the place and China’s are, in general, much better than your average place, and the proletariat seem to be mostly in high-spirits and believing in the project and the government and their ability to change what the government is doing if it is doing something they don’t like. It’s a completely different attitude than the U.S. and it is completely alien to my experience in any other Western country. Even our most ‘patriotic’ chuds think that the government is out to screw them, so it is weird to see a patriotic nationalism that actually believes that government can and does do good things. Whatever their central mode of production, they are very clearly trying to achieve communism.
We all hope. In all honesty it seems like Xi actually believes and the fact that Chinese leadership is confident in him as their leader gives me a lot of hope. I would hate to see China devolve into another neoliberal dead end but given how well materialist-based development has served them it’s hard to see that happening.
That said there will eventually be a big painful moment where they have to deal with the liberal elements and we are all going to be sitting on the sidelines wishing the best. You know, when we’re not busy riding around in Priuses stocked with miniguns stealing breast milk from milk town
I’m confused by this because I was replying to CatholicSocialist? I wasn’t trying to come at you personally, not even indirectly. just wanted to make that clear. that piece is originally by u/aimixin (RIP) I will edit in attribution
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Hey since you’re refusing to answer in the other thread, you claimed that you supported Donbas independence and also stated that you would have less (but not presumably zero) problem with Russia “only” invading them.
I asked how, if the DPR and LPR were the legitimate governments of the Donbas, and they invited Russia, Russia could possibly have invaded them at all and you responded to a bunch of other ones and not that one, probably because you’d basically walked into admitting you were acting in bad faith for the whole thread?
Anyways can you explain here how Russia could invade a state that was asking them to send soldiers?
This community is hilarious because everyone acts like they’re edgy cutting edge memers but all I’ve seen is PPB posted 40+ times, one copy pasta strawmanning libs, and three posts about how much fun it is to own the libs
Like I get circle jerking is fun but there is such thing as being bad at it. And I don’t think this community is nearly as smart or funny as they think they are
And I mean come on you gotta PPB in reply to this! It’s so funny! How could you not??
If you want to continue posting here, you have to share a dick pic.
Not for free buddy you gotta pay for those
AM I NOT ENTITLED TO THE SWEAT OF MY BROW
I believe that was from the monologue of a villain who is also a libertarian based on John Gault.
That lib is a blue curtained bazinga slinging
cliches and using 
format and delivery style, so of course there’s quoting of dae le wholesome nonpolitical epic bideo bame where based guy with epic speech is to be emulated and imitated. 
nope, sorry. we don’t make the rules. the mods are very strict, though. hurry, post a well lit picture of your penis before they ban you.
Would you kindly hog out or log out
Yeah, you’re right
Bro you got the whole community laffin
This right now might actually be the funniest I’ve ever found PPB
Happy for you buddy
Thanks, Chuck. Couldn’t have done it without your amazing mind.
She does, in fact have us all laughing
🚨 ATTENTION 🚨
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now this is a good bit
Do… Do you think you are clever for complaining about stale memes? Or that maybe the point is to, idk, annoy you?
Yes very
Keep it up you’re killing me. Thinking of anything fun new or original would be letting me win.
I mean clearly, you keep whining about it. Idk bud, you guys are still using SpongeBob memes over in your instance, I wouldn’t throw stones from a glass house.
If you want fresh I’d suggest Tik Tok?
Hog out or log out.
At least attribute the quote. This was Marx right ‘The material dialectic of history has concluded without question that one must either produce the hog, or failing that remove oneself from dialectical analysis entirely’
I mean, okay, if you’re asking for it.
“I like it that/it’s funny that” prefaces to rageposting don’t hide the rage.
You don’t deserve anything better with your
tier cliche-ridden smug-about-nothing mediocrity.
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People that disagree with you or dunk on your bad takes are mentally ill and leftism is about contempt for the mentally ill!
You did an ableism! You are very
cool! 
Oh we pearl clutch here. My b I’ll change it to ramble posting
No, you failed at being edgy because you used expired early 2000s edgy insults after whining about this place being too stale for you.
You should have just stuck with the high ground act now you just look like an even bigger dipshit
First off, fuck you.
Second off, This shit baffles you? Lmao, its all very straighforward. You havent even seen the posts our schizoid comrades make.
That poster was whining about lack of originality then uses stale moldy worm-infested edgelord insults from, like, 2003.
Nobody’s trying to be smart, funny or “le cutting edge memers” (cringe, go back to reddit) except you. It’s just that all the lost redditors like you are stupid and funny with your politically uneducated hogbrains.
Sorry, I meant
Somebody still hasn’t gotten over their first pig poop balls experience
seems like you should do some more reading. seems like you’re missing something.
It gets libs like you mad, and that’s enough for us
Now this is the content that keeps me coming back
Ha! A piggy with shit on its balls lives rent free in your head buddy boyo
I literally just posted an emoji and said you’re pro west? I’ve proven that I’m not funny, I am aware of that fact. The emoji was in refrence to the op shitting themself over imaginary critiscism?
we’ve definitely had better threads lol
this thread kinda rides the line between “are we just dunking?” vs “are we actually discussing?” and ends up not really being either
Dialectical Posting
PPB is intersectional posting when talking to libs or chuds because what they say is equivalent to hogshit so we kindly reciprocate. It would be rude not to meet you on your level. PPB is the DEI of posting.
Remind me, what other socialist state is getting the world out from under the thumb of US hegemony?
Considering China is a capitalist state much like America, not sure!
Damn where is America imprisoning and executing billionaires alongside harsh anti corruption campaigns in the government, maybe I’ll move there
I don’t care if they’re holding people accountable for corruption. Why does a country supposably aiming for socialism have BILLIONAIRES in the FIRST PLACE??
They have them as a byproduct of Deng’s reforms which allowed rapid development of the means of production, they need to be managed of course and suppressed by the people’s democratic dictatorship, which they are. Eventually development will reach the point where they are no longer useful and can be fully done away with.
Mhm keep telling yourself that hun. That’s a lot of words for “trust us bro the hyper capitalism is temporary”
The point of Deng’s reforms were to avoid getting killed in the crib by the west. Take their money and productive capacity in the short term to prevent them from couping/bombing you, and then when you’ve finished eating their lunch, you can do a socialist rug pull. Will it happen? Remains to be seen - but as for the capitalism, there are positive indications of tamping down on it. The anti-corruption purges are a great start. They rooted out many opportunist elements within the party, put the screws on capital and reasserted party primacy, and got the party back on track as a principled organization with serious cadre all around. That’s a positive development and puts them in a stronger position to manage a transition to a worker’s state when productive capacity and geopolitical conditions favor it.
In addition, some industries are being heavily restricted and reformed to prevent bourgeois saturation. Take education for example; foreign and private schools were rampant profit making/status manufacturing machines in China. These have been all but eliminated as for profit industries due to their misalignment with socialist development. This is just an example, not an exhaustive list.
China is hyper capitalist for executing billionaires and regulating the shit out of businesses deemed harmful for society?
You’re wasting your time. You can’t argue with someone who’s working backwards form a predetermined conclusion.
Better that what your flavour of socialism is offering.
It’s not in any sense “hyper” capitalism to begin with, it’s a limited form of capitalism while the working class maintains political control via the CPC and the stage maintains ownership of the commanding heights of the economy, for starters. And since the CPC has made good on pretty much all of its stated goals (usually ahead of schedule) and consistently improved conditions for everybody in the country for decades on end, what reason do I have to doubt their process?
it was either embrace partial capitalism or get strangled out of the world economy. Deng’s reforms brought a massive influx of foreign investment and expertise.
Lol fucking NORWAY is less capitalist than China.
The wealth of Norway depends on the imperialist white supremacist settler colonial extractive ventures of the West. The wealth of China does not. Simple as.
This isn’t about wealth. Does Norway have 12 year olds in factories? Tell me why Norway gives workers 3x more paid time off? Don’t you think China’s rich enough to make things better for workers?
By what metric?
They’ve made infinitly more progress eliminating billionaires than your flavour of socialism has
Really wouldn’t be that hard to make a wealth cap but ok, keep sucking off the CPC (Capitalist Party of China)
Ok, do it then.
If anyone good was in Xi’s shoes they’d do a much better job. We don’t even know his wealth because there’s no transparency with the CCP, shit he’s probably richer than Elon.
Dogmatism and ideological purity are blinding you. It certainly should be a conversation about why billionaires exist in China, especially as they strengthen their safeguards against capital flight, but their existence alone does not discredit the great strides of progress China has made under SwCC in under a century. There are few examples of such a large mass of people seeing such substantive improvements in their lives. No matter the system, such dramatic change will result in unforseen consequences because there is so much change occuring. The measure of the response though is what is important: protecting themselves from capital flight, placing party leadership within corporations, focusing on carbon reduction through reduced pollution, tree planting, and alternative energy sources are all measurable ways the government is correcting. Where else do you see such response by those in power for their citizens? The Chinese approval for their government is incredibly high, and this is why
Is Chinese capitalism efficient, and has the government helped the people’s material conditions (other than minorities/dissidents)? Yes. Are they aiming for socialism? No.
Counter point: yes they are.
So I gather that the relatively few dissidents in mainstream media is how you decide that there is excessive repression? Could it be that so many in China approve of their government that there just aren’t many dissidents and those who do speak out aren’t covered in the media you consume unless they face consequences?
As far as minorities, there has been progress for the LGBTQ+ community as well as religious minorities and other races. Could it be better and faster? Certainly, but that doesn’t mean it’s not happening or they are regressing.
As far as whether they are progressing towards socialism, if you believe Marx and Lenin, state capitalism is a necessary step towards communism and is generally accepted as ‘socialism’. What do you then classify as socialism?
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Have you done any reading on Socialism with Chinese characteristics?
Have you read “On the Governance of China”?
Profits of a corporation benefit its shareholders, usually concentrated to very few individuals.
Who are the beneficiaries when the profits go to the state?
Capitalism is when you execute capitalists for undermining the will of the state
from https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
How can you even be a Catholic and not pro-west? The literal state religion of the Western Roman Empire. The last vestige of the Roman empire. Spread by the sword throughout the world. Housed in Rome itself, the vile cesspit whose progeny still despoil and exploit this world. Real Jesus heads would never be down with a vile empire coopting his message like that.
We’re called Xills, honey