There seems to be a current of “pro sex work” in the left yet prostitution (to me at least) is not work it is not labour. Nothing of value is produced and all that’s provided is access of womens bodies to be raped by bourgeois men
Also does anyone have writings on the new trend of polyamoury?
Surely this has underpinnings in economy rather than “free choice to coshare a house amongst 4 people” (as in split rent 4 ways due to rent hikes)?
Again the trend of polyamoury seems to have it’s underpinnings in economy and the stunted sexual development of adults that are no longer able to “grow up” because wages are flat, houses are out of reach and rent is sky high. So why not YOLO and engage in as much meaningless sex as possible and collect relationships like commodities
(I’ve provided my opinions here but am looking for a solid marxist analysis of prostitution and polyamoury)
this is an excellent podcast episode on the sex trade (1hr long), i absolutely recommend it to anyone. one of the invited guests, Esperanza, wrote a great article on the topic as well (this analysis is very long, and violence+rape CW for the first paragraph)
she even wrote a shorter article on the phrase “sex work is work”
That shorter article is incredible. It gives a good analysis on the revolutionary sounding “Sex work is work” and how this ends up as defence of the Sex industry instead of the prostitutes.
Thanks a lot
I’ll be sure to read the longer one and the podcast
ofc comrade! i love Esperanza’s work, her writing is so clear and her points are so solid. ive been sending the podcast to friends but have yet to discuss it with someone
Reminder for ppl to be respectful as this is a contentious topic.
I agree with your view on prostitution. Here is a somewhat longer analysis, from this document (page 17, in Spanish).
Prostitution: is the phenomenon of sexual exploitation of women’s bodies, being absolutely the fruit of historical material conditions such as private property, inheritance and monogamy. The system’s control of the utilization of women’s bodies and sexuality implies a total patriarchal and capitalist domination of sexuality, which finds its climax in the buying and selling of sex and consent. In this way, the market makes a niche for itself at the expense of the sexual exploitation of women, deepening their objectification and sexualization as a dehumanized subject, devoid of the basic rights of society. We can analyze prostitution as the greatest form of patriarchal and capitalist exploitation of working women. Prostitution also applies the commercial logic to sexual activity, under the premise that “everything that can be paid for can be sold”. Prostitution is not work, since it does not use labor power, but turns women into a means of production, i.e., they are stripped of their human category to become a commodity.
Regarding polyamoury, in my view that is mainly a phenomenon in the United States. It could be related to the fact individualist ideology is so widespread there, that people arent able to compromise enough with a potential partner to form a stable relationship.
Thanks for this I’ll run this through google translate and read the entire thing
Youre welcome! By the way, I’m really confused why so many people are downvoting your post.
Yes a lot of pro rapists in the Left that wish to parade prostitution as something progressive despite this being settled a long time ago by Marx/Engels/Lenin and why every socialist country that ever existed outlawed prostitution
I didn’t post the question to ask the community I just wanted some recent MArxist analysis on it from communist parties!
I dont think that people on the left consciously support rape. Framing it like this will just get people’s feelings hurt, and they wont listen to anything you say. Instead it will end up with accusations being thrown back and forth, as we can see here.
Prostitution is certainly an important issue to discuss, and polyamoury is also an interesting topic. Maybe you can make a new thread to discuss those, but please try to formulate it in a way that no one will feel offended.
love that kollontai quote
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Then perhaps you have not run into the pro-Only Fans crowd or pro prostitution crowd that claim there is no difference between “sex work” and actual labour?
Anyway com. I did not come here to start arguments I just wanted to gather some Marxist analysis on this phenomena to develop my understanding of it from different communist parties and the like
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OK I will preface I didn’t come here to argue but to expand my knowledge on this.
Is sex work labour though? How come normal people are not paid for sex if sex is labour?
This operates under the assumption that whatever can be sold should be sold. This is a bourgeois value system.
The prostitution industry is an industry of mass rape. Not only that most of them are trafficked so are literal slaves or under violent control of pimps.
If we expand this to the Only Fans phenomena we see Monopoly taking control there with the most beautiful women/men earning hundreds of thousands whilst bourgeois men from the West use the difference in purchasing power of their currency (backed by USA military) to throw the equivalent of pennies at desperate women in Phillipines or India to drink their own piss/shit on camera for perverts in the West
Or if we look at the porn industry we see the porn stars who slept with James Dean coming out to say he raped them when during a scene he just shoved it in their ass to get a “anal scene”
Take this documentary for instance about BBC visiting young models in Ukraine and Russia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE-ZDS86F9k&t=1279s
Part way through the documentary when the 14-15 year olds are parading themselves in front of the managers for a shot at being picked the BBC presenter turns to the camera and says “back in Soviet times they would’ve gone to school, got a degree and be assigned a job. Now they can model and earn 30 x that salary in a year.” This is liberalism - not seeing the inherent value in educating your population to the highest to their ability and only seeing the $$$ signs that can be earned.
And I’ve never stated I favour criminalising prostitution only that I don’t view it as “work” and prostitution reproduces bourgeois morality and the conditions we wish to overthrow
IMO you are being a pro rapist if you think that prostitution should be illegal under capitalism
That is a very strong accusation, and you aren’t giving any argument at all in support of it.
It sounds like you understand illegalising prostitution as throwing the prostitutes in jail, but its not that at all. It means to give dignified jobs and living conditions to these women (and men). If anything, the people who pay for prostitution should be criminalised.
No I don’t think it should be illegal under capitalism but I am specifically talking about people who are pro-prostitution and yes I understand it as forcible re-education like what was done in USSR
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I think you are taking this whole discussion very personally, without really considering the opposte argument. This is not a good basis for discussion.
I agree that its not as easy as banning prostitution and be done with it (I mentioned this in my previous comment). But dont you think that it is very dehumanizing that women have to sell their own body just to make a living? As XiangMai mentioned, this results in issues such as human trafficking, and for that reason alone prostitution should be discouraged. Of course thats not easy, but that doesnt mean we should give up from the start.
if there are social classes there will exist prostitution, and if it’s within the black market they will have a worst time.
this is a borderline ancap argument, a socialist government can eradicate(perhaps not fully, but to a significant degree) black market prostitution, just as they can eradicate the drug trade
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not necessarily, but not seeing the drug trade as a component of the bourgeois imperialist system is just being blind(see opium in china, or cocaine in south america)
under capitalism though, legalization would lead to horrors that would make the united fruit company look like saints(which already kind of happened, see opium in china again)(the cartels won’t just go away, they’d become governments in their own right, no matter what the bourgeois propagandists tell you)
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I’m probably in the minority on this one. To me “sex work is work” just means that sex work is commodity production under capitalism, just like other wage work. I’m not pro-wage-work, because a planned society should produce for use and not exchange, but I don’t think that sex work is all that different from other service work such as bus driving. Marx says in Vol. 2 that a service is a commodity that is produced at the same time that it’s consumed.
prostitution (to me at least) is not work it is not labour. Nothing of value is produced
Value is abstract labor time under socially necessary conditions. Sex work definitely takes labor. Exchange value is what can be exchanged for a commodity. Sex work is exchanged for money. So it does have value. It may not have use value to you, but it does have value and exchange value in this economy.
There are some good Marx and Engels quotes in the thread. People are interpreting them as being specifically opposed to sex work, but they read to me like they’re saying sex work is just another form of wage work, and all wage work will disappear with capitalism.
Neither legalization nor illegalization solves the problem. The true problem lies in the cause of why some women find no other way of sustaining themselves than offering their bodies to a greedy paying public in the first place. Wage slavery combined with intimacy is where it gets really ugly.
