Let’s move the battlefield out of Ukraine and into Russia then.
Why would Ukraine want to take Russian land?
Not necessarily take, but a demilitarized zone might make sense, and that has to be put somewhere.
Like prevent troops amassing in “peaceful exercise” so they cannot surprise invade again.
Zelensky already said that Ukraine is willing to exchange Belgorod for NATO membership.
Presumably parts of Russia is of strategic importance, being where they come.
Not all battles are about taking land.Sure, but implying Ukraine would want to attack its neighbouring country, to take land for any reasons seems strange. That’s more like what Russia would do.
Since Ukraine isn’t a real country, it can’t invade another country. That would be a warcrimes.
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But remember, it’s the rest of the world that’s warmongering! Also up is down!
“The rest of the world”
time to remind people that zelensky made having peace negotiations with putin ILLEGAL
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This is the end of this thread. There’s no comeback to this.
“Russia’s upper house of parliament on Tuesday voted to support the treaties that make the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions of Ukraine part of Russia.”
Неужели так трудно понять чтение, товарищ?
Nobody actually has any argument against this except ad hominems, which is usually fairly telling.
I guess if we ignore the two comments pointing out how the article doesn’t state what he claims Zelensky said, then yeah nobody has any arguments.
Or were you expecting arguments against a fictional statement? Because I can come back with some just as fictional counter-arguments if that’s what you were looking for.
They cannot see those comments same as vampires can’t see themselves in a mirror.
Yeah, lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml ban people for posting dissenting comments. So their users can believe no dissenting opinions exist.
It’s a bid sad they cannot spot that the article, which is very short and written for children, does not say what they claim it says, but well.
So?
…
Exactly.
There really is nothing to negotiate anyway.
Ukraine does not want to give up territory.
Giving Russia anything for it is tatamount to paying a ransom. It would only encourage Russia to invade again in a decade or less.
Russia turning around and giving up the territory without gaining anything is just accepting complete defeat. They won’t do that.
So it’s a battle of attrition, both morale and economic.
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Yea they are.
Come on, not even zelensky had any hope they would accept this peace plan. They’re basically asking Russia to stop the war and give back all the territory they occupied. The Ukrainian counter offensive stopped at a brick wall, the Russians have no reason at all to do this.
Pretty crumbly and porous brick wall, there. And they apparently neglected to build it around Sevastopol.
War is normally a slow process. In historical terms Ukraine is making good progress… it is mostly fiction where wars are one in a couple days.
Except Israel.
There have been a lot of exceptions. However the majority of wars are longer as if you don’t think you can win surrender terms are generally better than death.
Sure, if you fight in the middle of the desert with little cover and no mud, progress is fast once you cut through the defensive lines. Vs fighting in mud and forests.
Hmm, let’s just see what an actual war historian has to say about that https://www.agonmag.com/p/vlahos-ukraine-shares-same-fate-as
Western people are funny to say the least, i dont know why, if it has something to do if the fact u guys always lived in such a privileged position that u can live in a fantasy world.
Try to be pragmatic. I never said it had to be quick, I never said this is unwinnable right now, I just said that makes no sense for the Russians to accept this terms right now, and Ukrainians are not stupid, they know this. Or were u expecting putin to wake up this morning feeling bad for what he have done and just move his troops out of Ukraine?
They didn’t have any hope because Putin is a warmonger. Any “peace plan” that Russia would find acceptable would just delay the inevitable and give Russia time to build back up, they’ve already shown their cards. Russia needs to give up on its territorial aspirations and give back what it’s stolen. Russia could’ve held onto Crimea even had it just not invaded Ukraine, the rest of the world had basically turned a blind eye to it (it wasn’t right, but that was the reality), instead they get to watch their military turn to dust, just like Putin will be doing within a decade.
So you’re saying Crimea is not part of Ukraine?
I’m not saying that all, but facts on the ground were that, 2014–2022, Russia had control of Crimea and nobody was going to do anything about that for fear of getting into conflict with Russia. That Crimea even “passed” into Russian hands without much of a fight from the international community is probably what emboldened Putin to go after the rest of Ukraine. What I’m saying is that had he stuck to just that sort of low-level “piecemeal” approach to carving out sections of Ukraine, like what was do e with Crimea, he wouldn’t have gotten nearly the amount of international backlash that he got.
Is Crimea part of Ukraine? Yes, but when it comes to international borders, facts on the ground are what matter in the long-run. Had Putin bided his time, eventually it would’ve just been accepted as fact. Nobody else would’ve ever cared enough to start a war over it. With Putin going for all-out-war though, he’s revealed Russia’s military weakness and facts on the ground have become mutable again, giving us the chance that we’ll hopefully see Crimea come back into Ukraine.
I’m not judging who is or who isn’t a warmonger or whatever, let’s just be pragmatic, it makes no sense at all for Russia to accept those terms. Were u expecting the Russian Govt. to suddenly wake up one morning feeling bad for what they’ve done and just move the troops out of Ukraine, including Crimea who’s under Russian control for over a decade now, and say “sorry, my bad”? This 10 point plan they “proposed” was only made so western media can say they’re trying to stop the war, which they aren’t. And again, I’m not saying they have to stop the war, I’m just analyzing things objectively.
I’m saying Putin can stop this war right now by going home. This is all Putins’ fault supported by oligarchs. It makes complete sense for putin to accept these terms, because he will eventually be forced to.
What makes you believe we will eventually be forced? Do you still think our sanctions will make Russia collapse?
When the bombs are on his doorstep caused by his own ignorance.
So you’re cheering for WW3?
There are no oligarchs in Russia.
Words have meanings. An oligarch is someone who has political power through wealth.
Russia is an autocracy, and Putin allows people to be rich, so long as they don’t try to translate that into political power.
America has oligarchs, Russia just has rich people that contribute to an autocracy.
… I’m honestly not sure which is more evil as a political system.
I would say what is in the U.S. because there are more thorns that have to be removed from the rose.
The counteroffensive is moving forward slowly because the Russians put a ton of mines and trenches in the way. Plus they committed their best troops to stopping it. Still Ukraine is slowly moving forward in the south.
I wouldn’t want to be there right now on either side. But basically the Ukrainians are winning because their artillery is better. Once Ukraine moves their artillery within range of the highway along the Sea of Azov, the troops protecting Crimea will have their supplies threatened. This is the general plan and they’re getting closer.
I never said this in unwinnable, but don’t make any sense to propose a peace plan to Russia right now demanding them to return all the land they occupied. Ukrainians are not dumb, they know this, this peace “proposal” is just a piece of propaganda to western media to say they are trying to start peace talks with Russia or some shit. The Russian ministry answered this out of anger but he’s not wrong, the Ukraine is only getting their territory back if they can put a huge pressure on Russians, possibly only if they can manage to make Russia fear to be attacked on their own territory. And even if this happens we have to trust Russians won’t nuke Ukraine to protect their own territory.
Up until about a week ago, this talking point was still current, but it’s time for a refresh.
They’re making slow progress constantly but the front lines are barely moving. There’s obviously a chance for a big break through as the first defences are always the heaviest and it should get easier after that, but there’s still a long way to go, and they’re both taking heavy casualties every single day.
There’s obviously a chance for a big break through as the first defences are always the heaviest and it should get easier after that
That’s the opposite of Russia’s defensive doctrine, which would only be exacerbated further by the ability to deploy reserves where necessary. It could be a different story if Ukraine wasn’t having to commit their exploitation forces just to try to reach the first lines of defense; even if they break through tomorrow they won’t really have the manpower to do anything with it.
The only actual progress being made is in destroying the equipment NATO managed to cobble together and losing trained manpower. Even if a miracle happened and Ukraine managed to make some breakthrough, what exactly is it going to be consolidated with given that they spent past three and a half months beating their head against a wall. They’ve already thrown in all the reserve brigades that were originally meant to come in and consolidate the gains now.
The Ukrainian counter offensive stopped at a brick wall
What a bunch of Putin propagandistic nonsense.
Either Putin propagandists have now infiltrated mainstream liberal media or you have no clue regarding the state of the war, I’m going to go with the latter here
holy shit stop invading and leave? OUTRAGEOUS! the nerve of zelensky to ask for what is Ukraine’s! I think you should go join the trenches to show how mad you are!
Zelensky knowing that there wasn’t a hope in hell of Russians accepting this is false? You know it, I know it, we all know it. It’s just politics. Of course Zelensky has to offer something, even if he knows they won’t bite.
The Russians have to claw something out of this debacle to sue for peace. And I hope the Ukrainians give them nothing, and take back the Crimea while they’re at it.
No, see when he says “a fairer distribution of global benefits” that needs to start with distributing ukrainian benefits to russian oligarchs obviously!
Why do you want to force the people of Crimea and the Donbas to be subjected to a government that they despise? Why don’t those people have any right to self determination?
they can move to the shithole that is russia if they want to live under a shit government
You want huge populations to be forcibly removed? That sounds like genocide
you mean like the Uyghurs? genocide is really fucked, what are you doing about the Uyghurs?
edit: no-one is forcing russian simps in Crimea to move anywhere you absolute nonce, they can live free under ukraine or go suck balls in russia if thats what they want
They were getting bombed and murdered by the ukrainian military since 2014. Thats not what I call “living free”
They’re basically asking Russia to stop the war and give back all the territory they occupied.
Yes.
Bad bot.
bots are at least logical
I mean, if Putin doesn’t want to die, he can always gobtje fuck home. I mean he can still suck a bag of dicks and then choke on them.
Somehow I doubt that Russia will accept the outcome of the battlefield.
That’s because you don’t understand what the outcome on the battlefield will be, but you’ll see soon enough.
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I’m not saying it’s not going to happen but Russia would have to attack NATO first.
No one wants to attack a nuclear power if they don’t have to.
NATO directly fighting Russian troops in Ukraine would be a big deal and quite unlikely already if it somehow got to that.
Russians need to be kicked out of Ukraine but they need to kick out Putin out of Russia themselves.
Why
It’s anti-Democratic to interfere in the politics of other countries.
And yes, the US has done it a lot, and tries to keep it hushed up because it’s extremely wrong and unpopular behavior.
First, why would NATO risk escalation and bother losing troops when they can get Ukraine to do all the actual fighting?
it would only be forthcoming.
How about DC?
Whataboutism
How is that whataboutism? Do you even know what that means or are you just a liberals parrot?
Also…
This guy gets called on it enough to have a cartoon but not enough to reconsider his words.
What did I say
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We want housing in the EU, not fucking explosives.
But if they blow up every house, there’ll plenty of housing to be built later on by EU companies. That’s basically the same thing, right? That’s what the citizens want, right?
If only political leader would still take their sword and fight each other on the battlefield instead of letting the armies fight for those old geezers.
Even back in those days, the leaders rarely put themselves in any danger
I would love to see Putin try to lift a sword against Zelensky
dym the ex-KGB and military guy vs the literal comedian that played piano with his dick on TV? Do you really think Zelensky would win this?
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“Our future is being shaped by a struggle, a struggle between the global majority in favor of a fairer distribution of global benefits and civilized diversity and between the few who wield neocolonial methods of subjugation in order to maintain their domination which is slipping through their hands,” he said.
I mean, he’s not factually wrong, just framing it in reverse. Russia is indeed trying to colonize Ukraine to maintain their dominion which is slipping through their hands. It’s just not using neocolonial methods but good old armed conquest.
And the people in favor of a fairer distribution of global benefits aren’t the people he’s thinking of. I mean it’s also clearly not the US, but “taking what Ukraine has and giving it to Russian Oligarchs” is also not a fairer distribution.
You know what they say about the right: every accusation is a confession.
These guys might be the most self-aware wolves to have ever wolfed
They also seem to be having their faces eaten by leopards, for some reason.
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What’s the difference between Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs?
As of right now? Armed military conquest and homophobic conspiracy theories.
Even IF ukrainian oligarchs were a problem…
Ukrainian oligarchs can get at ukrainian money without waging a war of aggression that causes nearly 30thousand civilian casualties.
a view taking hold among Ukraine’s allies that the war is likely to go on for years
That’s been obvious since 2014, and since the full invasion of last year.
Oh hey, remind us what this “peace plan” is exactly?
Caps on Russian oil price, restoration of original Ukraine borders, prosecution of Russian “war criminals”
It’s what you’d expect from a country that’s completely winning the war and not stuck in a stalemate while losing support
Caps on Russian oil price
Remember when people still believed this would work? lol
is it really a stalemate though? Russia is just letting Ukraine destroy itself basically…
Yeah, it’s what you’d expect from a country that’s winning the war, and Ukraine is not winning the war while rapidly losing support as pretty much all western media admits now. A few recent examples for you:
- https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/08/the-hard-reality-ukraines-last-gasp-offensive-has-failed/
- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/23/western-criticism-blame-ukraine-failing-counter-offensive/
- https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-poland-central-europe-eastern-kyiv-baltics-zelenskyy-war-invasion/
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-21/ukraine-zelenskiy-under-pressure-as-allies-priorities-shift
- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-09-24/ukraine-offensive-against-russia-is-too-slow-for-us-uk-and-eu
I was pointing out this obvious reality to some people on reddit a few weeks ago and I was called names. Here is how I came on this conclusion: Ukrainians were saying that whoever wins the battle of Bakhmut, will win the war. Then they proceeded to lose said battle and they were announcing to the enemy “Here we go, were coming, we are going to attack at this region anytime soon, please give weapons!” And everyone was like, “How dare you say that they are losing”. It’s like as if everyone forgot how to think for their own
It’s been pretty surreal to watch this unfold over the past year and a half. Every single prediction the west made about the direction of the war was proven to be completely wrong. Russian economy did not collapse, Russian military isn’t falling apart, Russia isn’t running out of weapons. Western weapons aren’t game changers, stingers, HIMARS, tanks, and missiles that the west sent were all proven to be useless in changing the direction of the war.
Yet, as we see in this thread, plenty of people in the west are refusing to do any reflection on the fact that the narrative we’re being sold is demonstrably false. They just latch on to whatever new hopium story western media puts out and just keep doubling down.
I understand that in every war there is propaganda on both sides in order to keep the morale high for the ones fighting. However there seems to be the case that the ones that make policy and push the propaganda fall victims of it and are being deluded into bad strategic decisions.
Right, we have a very narrow window of accepted viewpoints right now, and anybody who voices points that that don’t fit with the narrative ends up being sidelined. This creates an echo chamber where people just repeat the same talking points to each other even if they don’t agree with them because saying anything contrary would be career ending. A great example of this is how people like Jeffrey Sachs and John Mearsheimer are now only found on substack and random youtube channels. It’s impossible to make sound decisions without honest debate and without accepting facts as they actually are as opposed to as you want them to be.
It’s deeply ironic that the west prides itself on diversity of opinions that are considered. This is supposed to be one of the core strengths of the western system compared to “authoritarian” regimes like China. The reality turns out to be quite different.
And then we go ahead and criticize the Chinese for being authoritarian. People have not yet realized that democracy has diminished and that their so called rights are an illusion. So much for the west spreading “freedom and democracy”
I just heard Tilly on the talking heads say that if Ukraine doesn’t prevail then there will be direct conflict between USA and Russia.
These are the people running the largest government/military in the world and I’m pretty damn sure all those Ukraine flags would disappear from peoples mailboxes when the bombs start falling in their back yards and their grandchildren are sent to die for a war no one can explain why we are in.
These people are dangerously unhinged and they’ve brought us to the brink of a nuclear holocaust. The fact that so many people in the west continue to cheer this on is frankly disturbing.
Basically unconditional surrender of Russia.
Honestly It’s funny when you mention to libs that Ukraine itself has made law which forbids itself from negotiating with Russia. But russia is the unreasonable one?
And the goal of regime change in russia is particularly funny, like not even fully leaving ukraine are they satisfied with this. So the idea that peace can be obtained is for russia to leave, yet the ukranians themselves don’t even want this. Delusional people who are miserably failing this war.
(P.S. For you chuds and libs who are banned from lemmygrad, I cannot see your message, Real shame, and I cannot be bothered logging on to your alt-right platforms to engage with these illuminating comments).
Alright Lavrov, grab a gun and get moving.
If any people deciding to go to wars had to really put their asses on the front lines the world would definitely be a peaceful place.
But as always, in both sides, only the poor working class is dying on the front line.
Those of all castes are fighting on the Ukrainian side.
Yes, of course, the working class in old western tanks and the rich and the politicians in their unicorns…
russia is running out of the poor though, weird who would have thought using human wave tactics would decimate a population…
The battlefield isn’t even being faught on the Ukrainian side using the most cutting edge of Western technology and you want to keep fighting? Holy shit.
I would love to see that guy getting drafted and thrown into the battlefield he’s bragging about.
I’d like to see that old fascist fucker on the front lines, to join the conscripts he’s sending to their deaths.
I fucking hate this guy’s guts. I know that’s why he’s so good at his job, but I just… ugh. Whenever I see his stupid face, it’s like I’m getting preliminarily angry.
I’m trying to remember what language it is, it might be German or Japanese, which has a word which translates “a face badly in need of a fist.” That’s this guy.
German, Backpfeifengesicht. I also like “Fresse wie’n Lexikon: Aufschlagen, zuschlagen, nachschlagen.”
And that’s why I will never learn German…
It’s okay, we’re aware it’s hard. :-/ The compound words aren’t even the worst part, actually—articles are the real killers. Those, and the fact that the grammatically correct word order changes depending on what kind of idea you’re trying to get across. Ugh.
On the other hand, English is its own can of worms. If I hadn’t learned English as my first foreign language, I’d have pulled my hair out, mostly because of the spelling.
English is a difficult language. It can be understood through tough thorough thought, though.
He’s better spoken than any USA politician these days
Don’t you do my boy Pete like that
This sounds a lot like Hitler in the late 1930s (in the lead-up to World War 2).
