I was looking into Hyperbola Linux, when I came across this post. In this post it is outlined why Hyperbola Linux is switching to a BSD base. A bold move, but I hope it works out for the team.

However, I am curious about the four points they outlined as reasons for switching away from the Linux kernel. Is the Linux kernel really careening down a path of instability and binary blobs, or is this just a case of the Linux kernel’s development not fitting with Hyperbola’s design goals?

@trokhymchuk
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71Y

Every year there are news about new ‘super-duper-new-OS’ and nothing change. Linux is huge, it has so many programs/drivers so you cannot 'just replace it ’

@otso
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31Y

That’s true, but the BSD kernels aren’t really 'super-duper new-OS’es any more than linux. They’re just tried and true systems that have a different focus than linux. I certainly don’t see linux being replaced, but I understand why it might be incompatible with hyperbola’s goals

@trokhymchuk
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11Y

Super-duper-new-OS is about HyperbolaBSD. Hyperbola ain’t even independent distro, it is based on Arch

@otso
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11Y

ah. well that’s a good point then. I don’t know why that didn’t come across, maybe I was too literal about distro vs os. anyways, now that you mention it, I must admit i didn’t read much of the page. forking openbsd to replace the code with GPL licenses seems kind of odd. i am pretty sure openbsd actually tries to avoid gpl licences in favor of BSD licences so by switching, they’ve chosen a kernel less compatible with their goals, not more

@trokhymchuk
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11Y

Yeah, instead of modifying Linux kernel they take pointless (on desktop, Hyperbola is (was?) desktop-oriented distro) OpenBSD kernel.

@dancingvoles
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1Y

As time goes by more and more “issues” will most likely pop-up and the other major Linux distributions will possibly regret the integration and adoption of systemd into their projects

People have been predicting this literally since it was released and no major issues have cropped up that I have ever heard of, except for technical nitpicks that don’t really amount to anything (ie, the hardcoded DNS issue in the optional DNS resolver). I’m still waiting to hear about a single attack that actually exploited systemd as a vector. Some bad bugs have cropped up over the years, yes. Bad bugs have cropped up in all system-critical software over the years. And usually when people point at a longstanding “bug” and go “z0mg they don’t care about security” it’s usually because they’re overlooking valid considerations about real-world use and are literally just nitpicking because it’s not abstractly perfect.

And their rationale for example disliking having a hardcoded DNS server is that that’s only valuable for embedded. So what? Now init software should only serve unixsheikh’s use cases because… no reason?

From a technical perspective I don’t believe there is anything wrong with systemd as an init system.

That’s because there’s nothing wrong with it and it’s the best init system and that’s why everybody uses it. Everything else is just conspiracy theorizing to be frank. If people want to displace systemd they need to write something better. Not something that has one or two features like parallel starting, like actually do everything systemd does and do it better.

A lot of the supposed “security” issues are really just nonsense. For example they cite a bug with how systemd handles invalid usernames leading to root escalation. They ignore that in order to exploit this bug you already need root privileges.

They conflate fragmentation with freedom. A fragmented ecosystem isn’t necessarily free (UNIX was non-free and horribly fragmented for a long time), and a more cohesive ecosystem isn’t necessarily unfree (almost everybody was standardized on SysVInit for a long time and there was no wailing about the death of freedom). Interoperability is valuable and not a bad thing. Standardizing certain aspects of Linux systems improves interoperability between systems.

If you didn’t admin Linux systems before the switchover I can imagine not getting how fucking direly something like systemd was needed however.

@PopeRigby
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@dancingvoles
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51Y

Someone should fork Rust and rebrand it as Stainless just to get past the licensing issues.

@PopeRigby
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@dancingvoles
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You are completely correct insofar as it’s not necessary on its own merits, but certain purists find it a consistent talking point and basically all that has to be done to satisfy them AFAIK is to actually just fork the code so the trademark claims can be left to one side. Everybody can be aware that Stainless, or whatever name, is just Rust with trademarks stripped. Then they can recommend Stainless – or whatever name – instead of forking everything to get away from Rust.

@PopeRigby
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It is not just about branding, but also because it has a centralized code repository, and something like a kernel shouldn’t rely on centralized stuff. Imho, I feel like Rust just doesn’t fit into a kernel, the same with WireGuard and all the bloat it’s been discussed to become part of Linux.

kvuj
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@dancingvoles
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But that Arch dev said nothing about including proprietary firmware to make your wifi chip work out of the box. That has nothing to do with systemd. The issue is that system v was released in 1983 and it’s archaic and out of date. Systemd is not proprietary. People hate it because they got used to system v and hate that this replacement supplanted their favored way of doing things, which sucked and was awful.

There’s no virtue in spending hours writing and troubleshooting custom init scripts just because it’s less advanced and requires more work.

Linux isn’t getting “bloated.” Process supervision and service dependency management isn’t “bloat.” These are necessary and valuable features. People are just put out that how it used to be isn’t how it is now and are spiralling into conspiracy theorizing because all the major distros moved on and now they’re in the minority.

@PopeRigby
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@ufrafecy
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I’ve carried a passionate hatred for systemd (and pulseaudio, and anything else that Lennard Poetering has worked in basically) since the beginning. But I do have to say that it’s kinda growing on me. The journaling system is still aweful, but the unit system is pretty useful. It fixes a lot of problems inherent in all the other init systems such as creating dependencies on network mounts.

I think, as they did with pulseaudio, they introduced it too soon when it was still unstable and buggy. And they really should have made the logging system plaintext. Like… really. Journaling is a huge mess.

dandelion
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+1 I find systemd and journal logging a depressing thing. On servers instances I like to install syslog-ng or rsyslogd. Whenever there is systemd problems I can chroot into the instance and read the log files with any text reader I like.

@ufrafecy
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@otso
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41Y

I’ve used void linux and like it a lot. if you have a thinkpad and don’t mind doing without proprietary software, i recommend openbsd though. i’ve never had everything work well out of the box before switching

@ufrafecy
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@dancingvoles
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word “Linux” in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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