- cross-posted to:
- feminism@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- feminism@beehaw.org
In the hours following former President Donald Trump’s election victory, Google searches related to 4B — a fringe South Korean feminist movement that made a name for itself in the mid to late 2010s — surged in the United States.
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A message to my fellow guys: if you dislike this, guess what: it’s real easy to stop being the target of it. All you have to do is quit being a misogynistic, authoritarian piece of shit.
For real, it’s astounding(not really) how much women appreciate not being treated and viewed like they are things to be owned and controlled
This isn’t targeted at just the shitty dudes. It’s no sex with any dudes period until they get their rights back.
I don’t see the difference. If someone doesn’t want to have sex with you, whatever the reason may be, then you accept that decision and move on. The inability to accept that would be a form of misogyny in my books. This may not be what was meant by the comment you responded to, but I interpret as: stop being misogynistic, not because that’ll make women want to have sex with you (though it might), but because it’s not your place to unilaterally decide who should have sex with you.
I never said it was my place. I gave up on romance years ago so this movement doesn’t even affect me. Although I do agree with them in principle. The purpose of my comment was only to correct the person I responded to who was misrepresenting the scope of the protest. They said the movement was specifically targeted at misogynists and it is not. It impacts all men (or at least those seeking a romantic relationship with a woman) regardless of their attitude towards women. There’s nothing to interpret about it. Men get nothing until they get their rights back. It’s not even really about misogyny.
To be clear, I mean “you” as in the general you, not you specifically. Didn’t mean for it to come off as an attack.
The inability to accept that would be a form of misogyny in my books.
Yes and further, if you (the reader, not the person I’m commenting to) are a man who is insistent women must go have sex with these men so they dont get mad - why don’t you go have sex with them? You have holes. It might even be safer for you. Why don’t you do it instead? And why haven’t you already been doing it if you think it’s so effective? Like if we need a sexy olive branch to convert people over to our side, why don’t you do it? And if you found that weird and distasteful- forcing yourself to have sex with people you are angry at and don’t want to because they are not attractive to you - no shit. That’s how we feel, you idiot.
Respectfully, this isn’t on dudes.
Four and eight years ago young men overwhelmingly supported Bernie Sanders, and they were ridiculed for it. Dems even made up an epithet for it: Bernie Bros.
The perspective you’re showing in this reply is why Republicans won. You can’t make it very clear you don’t want young men to vote for you and then be surprised when they don’t.
What are you talking about? Bernie Bros are the diametric opposite of the problem. My comment is addressing all the men but them!
That is not the sentiment that Sanders supporters were receiving from Democrats in 2016 and 2020
https://www.vox.com/2016/2/5/10919754/bernie-bro-sexism
Robinson Meyer literally coined it as a pejorative
Rereading this article for the first time in a decade is insane
Yeah, I know what they think it means, but that doesn’t mean I can’t try to reclaim it.
Never mind.
I’m wasting my breath, but thank you for the discussion.
Yeah man, gamer gate didn’t happen 🙄
You can live in 2008 and 2014, but I can guarantee you (if what you saw this week wasn’t enough) that people are a tad more concerned with their inability to pay for groceries and the necessity of rationing their meds.
The voters told Dems what they wanted. Dems told them to be joyful about being in poverty.
They didn’t vote Trump out of hatred of women. (Most, at least. Some surely did.) They voted Trump because Harris represented a very shitty status quo.
They thought Trump was going to save them from poverty? Did he save them from poverty last time?
They thought Trump was going to save them from poverty?
Yes.
Did he save them from poverty last time?
Of fucking course not, but that doesn’t stop them from believing the lie.
The poverty wasn’t this extreme last time. That’s the issue.
Judging from all the hurt feelings and angry defensiveness I’m seeing in this thread this might be an extremely effective form of protest. Fragile toxic masculinity is so predictable.
You can tell a protest is working when it causes people to elect the people you’re protesting against
It even worked retroactively!
\S
You’re right, time will tell whether a protest that specifically targets the group that didn’t vote alongside us, and tries to make their life worse, will get them to vote alongside us next time. I’ll be holding my breath.
You’re right, women need to vow to Maga so that they will start respecting women.
I’ll be holding my breath.
I have reasons to believe you have been doing that for too long already
Literally lold at your last comment
I need you to understand that not a single MAGA guy would be affected by this. 45% of women voted for Trump. MAGA guys have no problem finding women willing to date them. Progressive and centrist guys would. This isn’t about women bowing to MAGA, this is about finding an effective way to protest, which this is not.
MAGA guys have no problem finding women willing to date them. Progressive and centrist guys would.
Source needed. Here in the PNW, men who are leftwing and caring are so sought out that polyamory is acceptable and women literally recommend men to each other. Most of these men are “polysaturated,” meaning they are at a maximum of partners they can emotionally and physically fulfill.
The monogamous ones are all taken too. Conservative men actively hide or lie about their political affiliation to get dates, and this was such a widespread trend that they weren’t able to find dates they had to make the app The Right Stuff. Because they couldn’t find dates on TINDER. Lol.
What will happen is that the few women who don’t know or who do want to date, will date those few sweet progressive men, and there will be a lot more leftovers. Most women on apps are discarding matches until they find a perfect one anyway so this is already the standard in many ways, it will just be amplified.
Oh and something else you all won’t like, is that strippers and sex workers will start to become more exclusive and expensive as their clientele increases. Men are going to be increasingly mad about that as well. Only Fans already changed the business model of stripping a bit.
The PNW voted mostly for Harris. Conservative and apathetic men living there are not the men we need votes from.
Conservative men actively hide or lie about their political affiliation to get dates, and this was such a widespread trend that they weren’t able to find dates they had to make the app The Right Stuff. Because they couldn’t find dates on TINDER. Lol.
Doesn’t this completely debunk the idea that denying relationships to conservative and apathetic men makes them more progressive? They’ll literally lie about their political beliefs and make apps to find conservative women before adjusting their beliefs to become more dateable
Oh and something else you all won’t like, is that strippers and sex workers will start to become more exclusive and expensive as their clientele increases
I’m starting to realize you think I’m a conservative. You’re making a lot of assumptions about me that aren’t necessarily true. Like, the idea that I’m allosexual. I couldn’t care less about the price of strippers and sex workers if I tried
I’m guessing you have a protest going against reading comprehension.
No, I have good reading comprehension relative to the average American. Do you want to try to explain to me how a protest that specifically targets progressive men is an effective way to get men to be more progressive?
“Just don’t be a bad guy and you won’t be the target!” This movement makes no distinction between conservative and progressive men, it is explicitly about absolute denial of sex, dating, marriage, and children.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m 100% in favor of women not dating conservative men if they don’t want to. A movement that draws attention to the fact that women have the option of breaking up with their boyfriends and divorcing their husbands would be fantastic. A movement that specifically tries to deny relationships to the people that you’re trying to deradicalize is not that.
But go ahead and keep downvoting me. I’m trying to explain how we need to avoid losing more voters, and you’re sitting there repeating the same shit that lost us those voters in the first place.
If you truly want to understand the nature of this protest, it’s important to understand where women are coming from with this.
No matter one’s sex or gender, the dating process can be exhausting. Guys are exhausted from always making the first move and getting nowhere for the effort. Women are exhausted from sorting through all the men and messages, most of whom show zero interest in her as a person. Cis-men don’t see the regular dehumanization and sexualization that all women experience upon entry to the dating scene.
On dating apps, so, so many guys will ignore profiles and send low effort messages like, “Ur pretty. Wanna hook up?” Checking messages can elicit the same feeling you’d get from clearing out your spam folder one email at a time… except each spam message expects you to suck its dick. Some even threaten violence if rejected. When women leave dating sites and dating scenes, that’s the male behavior they’re opting to escape from.
Now we also have (or are bracing to have) our reproductive rights taken away. We see the stories of pregnant women being denied care, suffering, and dying. We don’t want to become a reproductive rights martyr just because a condom broke.
This protest may have a consequence that men don’t like, but expecting women to give in just so progressive men can get laid ignores the issues that sparked this protest in the first place.
It tells us everything. It says you don’t understand what we’re going through. It says you don’t care what we’re going through. It says you think your desire to have sex is worth more than our very lives.
In a way, you’re proving these women right. If your attitude is reflective of other so-called “progressive” men, then I can’t blame any woman who chooses to have nothing to do with any men at all.
It tells us everything. It says you don’t understand what we’re going through. It says you don’t care what we’re going through. It says you think your desire to have sex is worth more than our very lives.
I was with you right up until this point. My single status has no effect on my political beliefs, and I’m going to keep voting in favor of your rights, no matter how much you try to tell me that I don’t care about you.
I’m entirely in favor of women exercising bodily autonomy. As a movement for protecting women, this is great. As a movement for affecting political change, this is not. Sell it as the former, and I’m in favor. Sell it as the latter, and I’m going to argue.
There are more goals than some grand, over-arching “change.” On an extremely basic, self-preserving level, there is a goal of “not getting pregnant while living in a country that actively endangers the lives of pregnant women.”
If it brings about change that would be awesome. But regardless of that, by swearing off relationships and sex, we’re still not getting pregnant. Ergo, we are able to keep our bodily autonomy. Which, I guess I have to remind you, we would lose if we got pregnant.
Unless (non-sterilize) progressive men have some special sperm that doesn’t attempt to fertilize an egg, creating an exception based on beliefs would still put our lives at risk.
Did you read the part where I said
I’m entirely in favor of women exercising bodily autonomy. As a movement for protecting women, this is great.
?
As a dominatrix- yes, chastity tends to yield very responsive subs.
Now that’s someone I’d vote for!
It’s tiering all these boys who “I don’t want to” behave.
Bros here think they’re making solid points, but all I hear is “wah wah wah”. You hashtag notAllMen out there with dry stalks need to do a better job of challenging the misogynistic attitudes of your peers.
extremely effective form of protest
…i honestly dont think it’s going to achieve anything and it certainly won’t undo the election result
I mean you could go the opposite route and do a FWB style approach to votes in the next election. If withholding sex is the stick, what’s the carrot? Offering sex?
A decent proportion of votes for trump were protest votes and a disproportionate amount were young men. Why not invest the effort in understanding why it is they feel that the Republican party offers them something that the democratic party does not?
Wow, what an amazing ally to women you are. You are totally willing to just use our bodies and vaginas for your own goals, just like that, huh?
Well, what’s stopping you? You have two holes and two hands, presumably. Get to work buying votes. Plenty of conservative men like men. Download Grinder and you can start tonight. Stay safe.
Swing and a miss mate, can’t threaten me with a good time.
I live in Australia, voting is compulsory, women don’t have to withhold sex in order to foment political change.
You didn’t answer my question tho, what’s stopping you from understanding why young men in the us voted for trump? Especially young men who would “normally” vote democrat?
what’s stopping you from understanding why young men in the us voted for trump? Especially young men who would “normally” vote democrat?
Lmfao go fuck yourself. It’s YOU who doesn’t understand, ya fucking gender narcissist. I’m not automatically wrong because I’m a woman.
The reason men are moving rightwards is because of the global war we are already in. Russia has been making, disseminating, AND FUNDING VIA CRYPTO, right wing men and voices all over the world. They’ve done this en masse, all over every social media and video game, in Minecraft servers even. There are KGB books describing how they would go after divisions in America to create a civil war. They went after our military fighting force to cripple us with a civil war while they start WW3. The rush of superhero media after 9/11 and Call of Duty/military online games was a perfect breeding ground for this.
Russia is working with Saudi Arabia and Elon Musk to destroy journalism so we can’t communicate what’s happening. Since Khashoggi and the Panama Papers.
Trump is a Russian asset literally proven in court. It’s entirely possible he will start a civil war here soon. He will absolutely be siphoning money from the US to Russia. And we will be sending bodies to fight Russia’s wars too. Russian revenge is about to start. Trump will start to go after his enemies, likely Biden, Hilary, Obama, Taylor Swift, Kamala. All of those people should literally flee the country on Jan 20th and wait to come back until he’s not in office.
He’s under Putin’s control and look at what mercy Putin had for Navalny. Putin is going to get revenge on America and soon Germany and any other nation he feels justified in harming.
How do you all not see that? And then blame WOMEN? For an active hostile military propaganda campaign by a hostile nation?
Yeah ofc we don’t want to fuck men anymore. And yes, they would’ve have just gotten worse anyway because we were never the original cause, quite obviously.
Politically, we are asserting our rights to our bodies. It’s a profound political statement that already has men ITT discussing and debating, but ultimately the most important part is that women are asserting the power they have over their bodies. Only in a fascist state is that political or controversial.
But yeah it’s totally women’s fault men are going to get worse and that’s not just an excuse to abuse women more and blame them for it /s
Oh wow
I am conflicted, halfway between genuine concern for you as a human being and being completely unsurprised at six paras of unhinged ramblings.
Suffice to say - this only exists in your head, and there’s a reason you’re finding it hard to build meaningful relationships.
Good luck, I hope you feel better soon.
Lol do you want sources? Books? A book might be too much material for ypu though if you struggle with a few paragraphs. There’s a documentary called Active Measures with John McCain and Hilary Clinton that shows these ties, that could be more of your pace.
It started with 4chan and bitcoin. I always wondered how the dumbest people I ever knew, literal meth addicts without teeth who can’t explain what a stock is, could do well at crypto, an obvious scam. Well, it wasn’t a scam, it was UBI for rightwing movements and pedophiles and the worst of society.
Memecoins are still doing it. That’s why they are there and named stuff like “Trump Maga.” They are funneling money around, and crypto is especially ideal for transferring money between countries.
I’m not writing that last part for you, it’s clear you refuse to learn anything from a woman. Sad for you, good luck when the right wingers take over AUS the same way they got us. And I do indeed know this is happening over there too, the women over there talk about it and 4B a lot. So it very well may become your problem soon too.
Gen-X men got him elected. As a white man in his 40s, I’m disgusted. After moving out of the city, I just can’t converse with most of the white men my age. The majority of my friends are now younger than me or POC.
It’s my understanding that a lot of Gen-Z men backed Trump as well. Can’t say I understand the appeal he has to the younger crowd.
They were split 47/49 Trump.
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The appeal was that Harris represented a status quo that has people working 2-3 jobs for the privilege of being unable to afford living in the US, and for Gen Z’ers, it also meant a status quo that has them permanently indebted.
And she spent two months insisting that people should be joyful about it. I said it back in June. Trump could win because he doesn’t have to lie about how hard Biden’s presidency has affected the middle class and the poor, and people who don’t like him won’t care about his social policies because he will represent the candidate of change.
Also, don’t come at me. I voted Green in a deep red state.
I’m not here to come at you, but do you really think Biden is the reason times are hard? When they managed to get $170,000,000,000 of student debt forgiven, and the Republicans blocked an additional $430,000,000,000, that didn’t stick with people?
Yes, I do.
Biden has made hundreds of millions appear out of thin air for war, and very little appear out of thin air for American suffering. I agree with you that the limited debt cancellation was a huge thing, and I’m glad he did it. I personally know someone who had $200,000 forgiven, and I’m grateful for that.
But it’s undeniable that Democrats didn’t follow through on their mandate for change under Biden.
Biden has made hundreds of millions appear out of thin air for war
Has he, or has he made hundreds of millions worth of 30 year old explosives and drones disappear? This is genuinely why we lost. People read a headline like “Biden sends multi-million dollar aid package to [foreign country]” and think he sent someone over with a fucking duffel bag full of hundred dollar bills. I see the same complaints about space exploration. It’s depressing.
I feel like I need to point out that student loan forgiveness was in the hundreds of billions and was the most direct thing they could do to actually help longterm… since medical reform is apparently a non-starter per Obama’s efforts. Climate change will continue to make everything worse, but I guess we can try to artificially prop things up to delay and worsen externalities coming home to roost. /shrug
Can’t say I understand the appeal he has to the younger crowd
Perhaps some introspection is in order. If feminists can’t figure out how to coexist with others, without turning everything into a battle, then they’re ultimately going to prove to the world that they have no business at all being anywhere near power. Frankly, women have been given a great deal of autonomy in western civilization recently, and have set themselves to the task of burning everything down. It’s not at all a good look, and how the younger generation sees you should be a wake up call.
Feminists are not the one aggressively turning men into this. It’s toxic masculinity types like Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, and Joe Rogan.
Keep doubling down. I’m sure you’ve almost got the formula right.
The scary feminists are turning men into douchebags not the notable douchebags with a platform spewing hate, sure buddy.
Look inward my dude. You have some really fucked up ideas about women. Women are just people like you or me and deserve full rights including to their body. If you can’t accept that you don’t see women as fully human and you are, to be technical, an asshole.
If feminists can’t figure out how to coexist with others, without turning everything into a battle, then they’re ultimately going to prove to the world that they have no business at all being anywhere near power.
If thats your logic, when are men going to apologize for WWI and WWII? How about an apology for the Holomodor? Are these the evidence you’re using to show that men deserve to be in power?
Frankly, women have been given a great deal of autonomy in western civilization recently, and have set themselves to the task of burning everything down.
Oh? Which part of men’s bodies are women given legal power to control?
BTW, I’m a dude, I’m just not deluded enough to think that my genitals make me smarter that people with other genitals.
Autonomy is not “given.”
It is when you’re still so deep inside the system mentally that you require products to facilitate your lifestyle. If you want to know how to be free without relying upon society to grant you that privilege, you should look into this cool guy from Roman times named Jesus.
you should look into this cool guy from Roman times named Jesus
Look I never do this, but… 🤮
And seriously… if you’re trying to be a “good Christian witness”… this is not the way.
Not even really Christian, but he still provides a great example of what it actually means to live in this world. Too many people want freedom, but don’t want to give up the luxuries that others provide for them. Frankly a lot of Christians don’t get that part of the message either.
Do you have a citation for this? Maybe it’s just the circles I run in, but I don’t know any gen-x men who voted for Trump.
White people 45-64 accounted for 25% of the votes. 62% of them voted for Trump.
Men 45-64 was the leading demographic for age by gender at 60%.
Wild. I must really live in a bubble or something. Most Gen Xers I know were born in the 1970s and aren’t religious or Republican, and they actually vote. Maybe it’s because I don’t live in a rural area.
I do know a bunch of people born pre-1970 that probably voted Trump.
I’m now in suburban NY, just north of the city. Old money Republicans make the county red.
Gen-X men got him elected.
Like all things Gen-X, there aren’t enough of us for negative or positive change. In 2022 only 23% were Gen-X (down 3% from 2012), and assuming equal split on gender, that would be about 11.5% men, and I know for sure 100% of Gen-X men DID NOT vote for trump. For the sake of your argument lets say 70% of those men did thats only 8% of the vote. source
I don’t think its a supportable statement to say that this specific 8% are the reason trump was elected without ignoring the other 45% of the electorate.
Did all you ladies see my post? Pretty hot, huh?
I have genitofemoral neuropathy. I’m not satisfying any women anytime soon. lol
Fair observation though.
Hey unrelated and probably a little invasive of me, but just wanted to say you definitely can still enjoy sex with women even if you aren’t using your penis. Oral is often enough for many women, along with dildos, kissing, and breast stimulation. Please don’t feel like you can’t have a sexual relationship just because of that, it is possible (and is the norm for many lesbian couples).
There are also electrical prostate stimulators (based on the medical device that does the same thing) that will induce orgasm. Idk if that would work with your neuropathy or if it would make it worse etc but those are a thing. I will warn you that all electrical exposure including TENS units increase your risk of developing ALS later in life though, it’s why I retired estim toys from my practice. However, up to you. A prostate shock every now and then may be worth the increased risk to you.
I don’t mind talking about it. As of now, a moderate degree of arousal is too painful to be worthwhile, so masturbation and oral are out.
The sympathetic muscular response to the pain causes persistent contraction of the lower abdominal and pelvic muscles, leaving them way too tight. I’ve been working with PT to stretch and relax them, but the progress has been slow. I can finally use a Valium suppository without horrible pain from application, so anal play is out until I can control my pelvic floor muscles again.
I appreciate the estim idea! Who knows. I’ve been so surprised by what hurts and what doesn’t since my injury that I couldn’t predict how that would work. I’ll give it a try. Thanks!
It’s their body and their choice. Simple as that.
It should be at least.
Sorry about the fucking idiots. Thanks for not fucking the idiots
More women voted for Harris, but there was still a giant number of women who voted for Trump. The women who voted for him won’t do this and the women who didn’t vote for him wouldn’t have dated been who did anyway.
You’re really missing the point if you think this is about who a man voted for, and not about a woman not wanting to risk her life because any fuckwad stealthed her or even accidentally got her pregnant. Misogyny and sexual crimes do not follow party lines, they are pervasive throughout society, and the fewer choices women have, the more we will protect ourselves.
Hey, I’m completely on board with the fight. I 100% believe no one but the person and their doctor should be involved in any healthcare decisions, and I’m an advocate for women. I just think that this particular approach will accomplish nothing. The only people it will impact are the people who are already like-minded.
I don’t really get this because anyone participating in this is left enough that they probably wouldn’t want to date a misogynistic, right wing men.
Maybe I am too man to understand but hoping to get a better perspective.
Edit: After thinking about this I could see how the movement could help encourage woman out of these toxic relationships and empower them to live without a man.
Yeah, my niece, who is generally a worldly, progressive person, was talking about this guy whom she’s not ready to call ‘boyfriend’ yet, and part of that description was, “he’s, like, super into Hitler.”
Doesn’t that seem like kind of a red flag? ??
My wife accidentally dated a white supremacist before we met. She’s not even white. She found out like six months into their relationship, when she stumbled upon a tumblr post about white power dogwhistles and immediately recognized like four of his most prominent tattoos. He even got one of them after they had started dating.
She initially dismissed it as a coincidence, until she saw the same tats on a lot of his friends. Some women will try to excuse a lot of red flags if they’re not directed at her specifically.
Your niece desperately needs an intervention.
😬😬😬😬😬 boy, what???
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“ah you see this is my dissertation, totally academic, and also I tattooed this symbol on my arm”
The dissertation is on eugenics.
The last woman I dated was extremely progressive but dated a pretty misogynistic dude before me and then ended up cheating on and ghosting me for a Maga dude.
I understand the sentiment, but this is intrinsically self-defeating if at most one half of the female population participates while the other half if quickly drifting towards the trad-wife high birth rate shit.
It is just math.
Did you actually think half of the female pop wants to be a trad wife? Only 37% of young adult women voted for Trump for instance. 76% of 25-54 year old women work. 88% of women believe abortion should be legal. Trad wives are an internet meme that has single digit support among young women.
https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/civilian-labor-force-participation-rate.htm
https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.aspx
Think about it long term though. If trad wives have lots of children and all other women don’t, the next generation will be over-represented by the children of trad wives. Over a long enough time scale I think trad wife like subcultures will take over.
Think about it in evolutionary terms. If a mutation shows up that dramatically lowers fertility rate it will be heavily selected against unless it somehow confers an even greater fitness advantage in other areas.
Here we’re dealing with cultural changes associated with the invention of birth control and a massive liberalization of society. These have caused fertility to plummet but don’t really confer much of a fitness advantage (most of the advantage is due to modern medicine which trad wives also have access to). Since culture is pretty strongly heritable (sometimes even more strongly than individual genes, which might only be passed down 50% of the time if only one parent has the gene) we could see a societal takeover by trad wives over the next few centuries.
You are assuming that the children of trad wives born into a culture that offers a far better deal choose on average to become tradwives. You are also ignoring how small a group it is and all the other larger groups are that also have big families. Lastly you are ignoring how short fads are and how long generations are.
If you start with 3% tradwives and grow 33% per generation you are going to be very disappointed in 60 years when its only 7% even more so if expected losses to other cultural options keep it at 4% or even extict.
I used the term “trad wife like” for a reason. Trad wives are a bit of a meme right now but they’re not the only group where women focus on household chores and raising lots of children. Amish and old order Mennonites, traditional Muslim families (my experience is with Somali families), Hasidic Jews, Mormons as well as lots of traditional Christian groups too.
“Far better deal” is debatable. Amish are pretty famous for offering their children the opportunity to leave and live a modern life among “the English” (their term for non-Amish). Very rarely do they actually follow through on it, as they have everything they need.
I volunteer at an after school homework club run by the local Somali community. I help Somali kids with their homework and have made friends with several people in their community. Their family structures are quite traditional and all of the kids have numerous siblings. They don’t avoid modern technology but their community is so close-knit that they strongly maintain their beliefs and practices.
We gave up a lot to have a culture that “offers a far better deal”: a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose, a connection between the work we do and greater meaning (unlike so many bullshit jobs, when you grow your own food it feels immensely satisfying), large families with close kinship bonds to form a support network, even the help of older siblings helping to raise younger children. Many modern parents struggle tremendously just to raise 1-2 children simply because they’re on their own, with no support network.
Amish, Mennonite, and Mormon women face horrible levels of abuse, including stunning levels of incest. So do trad wives. Why are you ignoring the intrinsic trauma that comes with being enslaved? Women are not immune to this. You can see videos of them hanging themselves from ceiling fans after being sold in marriages.
Many of these communities don’t believe spousal rape is real. Rape is torture, which is why it is used extensively in war. It’s also why victims of rape automatically develop the same brain/PTSD patterns as victims of war.
You are profoundly ignorant of women or even the human condition. Recommend the documentary trio Half the Sky and also the book The Body Keeps the Score.
These people can’t leave their cult communities because they literally lack the life knowledge to do so. That’s actually exactly why cults deprive their members of knowledge. They aren’t staying because they are happier, they stay because otherwise they will lose their family and community due to cult shunning and be alone in a strange world.
And further up, re: “trad wife takeover,” um it’s actually their fascist husbands taking over. Blame the men doing it, not their stupid enslaved wives.
You’re assuming children follow the ideology of their parents. I have yet to meet an irl leftist who wasn’t raised by conservatives.
How many children with Christian parents grow up Muslim? How about vice versa? How many children of vegan parents grow up to be meat eaters? How about vice versa? How many children of Chinese parents grow up to stop celebrating Chinese new year or stop eating Chinese food?
Children are never guaranteed to follow their parents’ beliefs and cultural practices but they’re far more likely to follow them than they are to choose any other belief or practice to follow. This phenomenon is also heavily reinforced by region. How many leftist children of conservative parents choose to stay in their hometown in some rural area deep in a red state?
Moving far from home to go live in a big city due to educational and ideological differences is extremely common. However, raising children in an expensive city without the support of the grandparents and other extended family is much more difficult. I think this reinforces the birth rate trends among conservatives, even for those who do not claim to follow the trad wife movement.
It’s probably uncommon to go from Christian to Muslim or vice versa, but I’ve seen many going from religious to atheist.
I don’t hear much about vegan children, so I can’t speak on that.
Celebrating Chinese New years? I think when it comes to culture specific celebrations, it feels inappropriate to partake in those of other cultures, especially when you don’t know much of them. But when you have some of your own where that doesn’t apply, then you take it, because a celebration of any kind of a celebration. An excuse for getting together and doing something special.
I think this shift you speak of is more likely when the world around you is visibly doing better than your immediate surroundings. Right now, I’m not convinced that’s the case anymore, so sticking to what you know and grew up with feels much safer, even if it’s still shitty.
If I had thought that, using the words “quickly drifting towards” would have really made no sense. But I still see them in my original comment.
I don’t expect this to go anywhere, but wouldn’t limiting the dating pool create a more competitive market for men?
If that is a good thing, that I don’t know
We are in the middle of a loneliness epidemic. For both women and men. Denying themselves companionship and love will only make people more miserable.
Welp, another reason to stay away from the usa
It’s not just the US. It’s mostly everywhere. It’s a byproduct of the internet existing and so many people being addicted to it. It’s a byproduct of people overworking themselves, working shit hours / nights so they cannot interact in a healthy way - without being literal zombies. It’s a problem with the mental health crisis too - with the loneliness epidemic fueling it, and the mental health crisis fueling the loneliness epidemic. More people are scared of dating and getting hurt. More people are scared of commitment. People go nuts locked up alone in tiny boxes they call a home, don’t know how to get out and don’t want to risk inviting someone in. People got comfortable with how things are going for them, even if it’s going completely shit. Then there are the dating app companies, whose entire gimmick is to get you hooked onto a monthly subscription. Which, aside from someone who is looking to hook up only, is about as counter to what they should be as possible.
Well, let’s hope the place I live doesn’t catch up
Oh for sure. Being alone most of one’s life is torture for a lot of people. It changes them, often for worse. Humans are social creatures and it shows.
Yep, it’s very important to your health
Who are you to decide whether they should have your company?
Re-read what I said. I’m not forcing anyone to stay in my company. Hell, I even qualify that there are some people who don’t mind being alone.
We are in the middle of a loneliness epidemic. For both women and men. Denying themselves companionship and love will only make people more miserable.
I’m really curious how you interpreted this as Maalus wanting to force women into his company
Sorry, your concern is transparent and as poorly constructed as the morals your father tried to pass to you. The math is simple: if you think mass deportations, hurting poor/disabled people and reducing education are good things, women generally don’t seem interested.
Go ahead and skip to, “maybe they shouldn’t have a choice”, you’re already making them not want to fuck with attempts at reduction in birth control.
Ultimately it seems quite clear, as a dude, most women would rather die than be forced to raise a rapist’s child.
The fuck are you talking about Jesse? I see no relevance in your rant at all.
Missing the forest for the trees. I can only hope you’re playing at being this obtuse.
Women will protect themselves from people who not only don’t share their views on essential liberties, but particularly from people codifying a reduction of liberties for them. If they decide not fucking men is how to bring them a feeling of safety, that’s how it’s going to go.
Keep whining about it.
I mean, okay, whatever rocks your boat buddy
Lmao what a joke your brain must be. Good luck, soft serve.
“Lysistrata” is a 2400 year-old play about the women of Greece ending the Peloponnesian Wars by withholding sex.
If it’s good for the Greeks…
Which ironically is a top climate change helper. One silicon valley baby is worth half a damn African village in terms of carbon footprint.
It’s the affluent, highly-educated, well-off women (by world standards) who have the biggest effect by having fewer children.
Plus, a whole category of nazi bullshut dodged, the original point.
If I were a cis woman, I also wouldn’t want to risk pregnancy by being with a cis man. Certainly not in a country where being pregnant is increasingly more dangerous to one’s life.
Also for my trans homies - remember that HRT is not birth control.
I’m all for women doing this, I’m just worried it’ll literally be the beginning of Idiocracy.
Idiocracy would be a significant upgrade from our current predicament.
Lmao all we need to do is deny men any meaningful relationships, that’ll deradicalize them for sure
I would love to hear other opinions. If you think that ostracizing the specific demographic that you needed for this election is a good idea, please let me know. Personally, I think it’s incredibly stupid. If the only women that a guy is able to get the time of day from are conservatives, I think that’s gonna make guys more open to conservatism.
Because people refuse to read the article, it says
The idea behind the movement is individual resistance against what it defines as a conservative political environment and the corrosion of reproductive rights.
This is explicitly a movement attempting to affect political change, at least according to the article that we’re discussing. I understand and support swearing off relationships for the sake of protecting yourself, but that is not the argument that the article is making.
During Trump’s last presidency a friend of mine told a guy who was making disgusting comments towards her to fuck off. You know what he did? He punched her in the face and broke her jaw. She needed surgery.
He got maybe a few weeks in jail and since he’s unemployed suing him for the medical costs was fruitless. This was in a blue state too.
Shit’s fucked up and I don’t know how else to help people understand that women are genuinely afraid of men for a reason. I’m sorry if that hurts some genuinely good dudes feelings out there. It’s not their fault some percentage of men act like feral animals and pull shit like this.
Then you have trump encouraging these types and it’s a really fucked up situation. All because some grown ass men with the self control of an infant can’t function in society without hurting people and need misogyny and racism to bolster their tiny egos because it’s the only hierarchy in which they aren’t on the bottom…since they’ve never accomplished anything worthwhile in their lives.
These violent men are often the same ones who raise their sons “not to be sissies” and teach them to repress their emotions because “crying is for girls.” That’s emotional abuse at best. There’s probably a lot of physical abuse accompanying that too.
Anyway, sorry about the length of this. My point is that the types of men who hurt women are often the same ones who abuse their sons and perpetuate the mental health crisis among young men which I’m sure contributes to the high suicide rates among young men.
I really wish people could understand we’re fighting the same enemy.
Yes, let’s generalize all men because of that fuckhead, or the few fuckheads out there. Meanwhile, the left wing femcels die out leaving conservatives behind. Cool strategy.
I don’t think it’s different enough from the norm to effect anything. Do you think men will even notice?
Yes?? They’ve clearly been noticing and acting out??
We are very much in the ’ village burning down ’ part of “A child shunned by its village will burn it down to feel its warmth.”
They were acting out before though. The 4B movement is a response to the abuse.
This is what’s happening, and if you really want to understand it I recommend the book “Controlling People,” by Patricia Evans:
- Man abuses woman because he feels loved when he violates her boundaries (instead of showing love by respecting boundaries in a healthy relationship)
- She asserts boundaries (a limit on her own self) as part of the human condition
- He then amplifies abuse to punish her for breaking from his control and for having boundaries, because it made him feel too separate and not enmeshed, which causes attachment wounds
They are mad they can’t literally abuse us into submission like Andrew Tate claims. They are mad we aren’t stupid and easy to manipulate, like they’d been lead to believe. They are jealous of beauty and happiness because they are so miserable because men lack community that is kind to women. And that’s all of ya’lls fault. Instead you made manipulative PUA groups.
They will keep amplifying their abuse, like literally all abusers (see: Why Does He Do That?) until we are dead or they are in jail. It doesn’t even matter if we behave “well,” all that matters to them is that we feed their ego of control and entitlement over us.
No. You don’t have to do that so neither will I.
Why don’t you warm up that guy yourself? A hole is a hole, right? Why don’t you suck off these on the fence guys to win them over? I’m sure there are plenty of bi and gay ones you can convince.
Ah yes, because women can’t be abusive.
The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now. If people like you continue to neglect the conditions that lead to young men being brainwashed by red pill, manosphere bullshit - things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.
I don’t really care to read anything that paints men as abusive controllers. I’m interested in making things better, not making things worse.
If people like you continue to neglect the conditions that lead to young men being brainwashed by red pill, manosphere bullshit
What are you doing for this? Show me some screenshots from socials of your work there. I’ll accept even 1 comment in the last 2 weeks of you reaching out to a fellow guy debunking redpill content.
Remember, when Trump’s Youth doesn’t seem to be getting any weaker with each passing year - you did your part.
Wait so you can’t post any proof, not even a comment you made on social, of you speaking to a fellow man about redpill or manosphere content, to specifically stop them from being rightwing?
You can scroll through my entire comment history and can find me educating men about feminism constantly for free. Talk about unpaid women’s labor. It’s not me who didn’t do the work.
Yet again blaming women for the abuse of men. Literal victim blaming. Nice. Have you thought about how your actions drive women away?
Yes, because being part of the majority voting for Trump is clearly the same as being shunned. Women should just give up their bodies to these disgusting creatures for the good of the country ./s
Right? Wtf, handmaids tale shit
The crux of the issue presents itself.
The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. You want to help create more MAGATs? Keep ignoring young men and the problems they have.
You want to help create more MAGATs? Keep ignoring young men and the problems they have.
What are out of power left-leaning women supposed to do to fix the problems with these losers? They voted for the “we have problems and we’re being ignored” party after listening to bro podcasts all day and they will now control three branches of government.
Why is it ok for in power politicians to continually ignore the needs of the people voting for them? Why does nobody notice how “men’s problems” continue even as the spiteful fucks they vote for have massive amounts of power?
Fixing young men isn’t up to childless, left leaning, powerless women.
Obviously for women to be heard they must be silent. And up is down. And this isn’t doublespeak.
Have fun dealing with the new Hitler’s youth.
You too 👍
Yes, threaten women with violence when they don’t do as you say. Nice.
What is your suggested solution concretely? are blaming young women for the problems of young men.
No, they’re blaming the Democratic party and its online advocates for not taking young men seriously as a voting demographic
No, read their comment. They think women should fuck progressive men to stop them from becoming right wing.
Well no, obviously. This movement has members numbering in the thousands. There may be two people in my city actually trying to live by it
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Back when the majority of women available to date were leftwing, men didn’t get more leftwing. It didn’t happen. Women in the youngest voting demographic on exit polls were something like 61% voted for Kamala, whereas the men it was 45%. If your theory was right (and not just an excuse to blame women for men’s abuse), those numbers would be equal. Men like power over others, enforcement of rules, and feel entitled to the patriarchy and that’s why conservative movements appeal to them as they get older.
No, if my theory is right, then we would see a rightward shift among men as they lose contact with left-leaning women. We won’t know for sure that I’m right until a) this movement becomes widespread and b) fewer than 45% of men vote for the next democrat. I’m not blaming women for anything. I’m saying that this would be an ineffective political strategy. Nothing more, nothing less.
Okay, your theory would still be true BEFORE the election and 4B movement though. And it wasn’t, because the 4B movement responded to men becoming more sexist. Men left women to be sexist. Women were already rolemodeling good behavior and men went elsewhere.
We know you’re wrong because men already were surrounded with leftwing women and chose to abuse them instead of respect them.
Men age 45-65 are below that 45% mark and their wives are traditional and obligated to fuck them out of wifely duty. What women do is largely irrelevant to whether men will be abusive or not. That’s a moral choice the man makes. So let’s make it less convenient for them and add in natural consequences, like natural hatred for people eroding our rights.
Hey now, I’m 56 and married and not “obligated” to do anything. Not even my mom was, though her mom was. I don’t think that’s a thing anymore, or if it is it’s not in my particular generation.
I do agree that women aren’t responsible for abusive men, though.
I don’t know anybody who is being celibate as protest but do know more than one woman who gave up on men to just date women.
your theory would still be true BEFORE the election and 4B movement though
??? My theory is about the 4B movement. The hypothesis is that if it were widespread, we would see a rightward shift in men. That is, we would expect them to go from 55% voting red to >55% voting red. This hypothesis has not been tested yet.
So let’s make it less convenient for them and add in natural consequences
I’m in favor of this. The only thing I’m not in favor of is telling guys that didn’t vote for abuse that they’re the exact same as the guys that did.
So if that’s true, then why isn’t the opposite true - when more leftwing women were fucking men before 4B, why didn’t the men get more leftwing? They got more rightwing. Why?
I really don’t care about this conversation. The 4B movement has affected literally zero political change in Korea, and that’s really all I should need to say.
If you don’t want to date men, you shouldn’t.
Lmfao you suddenly don’t care because I am right and embarrassed you.
Oh, so now you claim 4B has no effect on men? I thought your hypothesis was that it would drive men rightwing. Suddenly 4B has zero political change. Huh. It’s almost like your original argument was disingenuous.
I beat men for substantial amounts of money, and fyi even if you had the money I would refuse you. You are transparently a danger to women with everything you say.
The thing people who didn’t read the article are missing: This doesn’t apply to all men, just shitty men. Which yeah, if you’re a dude who wants to get laid don’t be shitty.
This movement explicitly applies to all men. I would know, I read the article to make sure it didn’t specify conservative men. I also checked the Wikipedia article, which also doesn’t specify anything about conservative men. It’s a protest against a whole societal problem, and it calls for, specifically,
No sex.
No dating.
No marrying men.
No children.
I mean it’s a movement of individuals. Everyone will pick what they think is best. There are women with husbands who won’t sleep with them and women who will but won’t have babies (when previously they’d family planned).
Far too many people are lumping in all men in discussions around the election.
It was obviously their fault, to be fair. /s
that’ll deradicalize them for sure
I can assure you that this won’t “deradicalize” me. But then again, you don’t seem to understand what that term means, so you probably don’t understand why.
Maybe deradicalize wasn’t the best word, but I couldn’t think of a better pizzazzy synonym for convincing centrists to vote blue instead of red
To “deradicalize” someone would entail turning them from the left to the right, not the other way around. You may have noticed that right-wingers themselves never self-apply the term “radical,” but leftists most certainly do. Like me, for instance - I’m a radical. There is a very good reason for that.
It’s only liberals (and liberal media) that strips the actual political meaning out of the term and hysterically applies it to both the left and the right in their inane quest to prove to everyone and themselves that they are in the (so-called) political “center” - something which, as any radical can tell you, does not exist.
Any radical can tell me that the political center doesn’t exist, but that doesn’t really change the fact that the loss of the political center is why we’re in for another four years of Trump
What do you call the 11 million people who voted for Biden in 2020, and didn’t vote this year?
What do you call the 11 million people who voted for Biden in 2020, and didn’t vote this year?
People who got fed up with the (so-called) “centrists” that spent the last four years doing absolutely squat to fix the whole “fascist-zombie-horde-scratching-at-the-gates” thing, perhaps?
You don’t oppose right-wingers with “centrism.” Unless you want to hand the right-wingers a milk-run victory, of course.
You are awfully certain about this. I know the centrist approach did not work this year, but I am skeptical that a radical left approach would have won. The election math is just that there are too few of you radicals to win any elections at the moment.
You are awfully certain about this.
They don’t allow radical politics into the formal political establishment because radical politics threaten to dismantle the formal political establishment. So, no. Radical leftists do not win (or even play) electoral politics.
That’s not what we are talking about at all here. If it’s merely winning elections you want you don’t even need radical leftism. All you need is a Democratic party that’s actually hostile to fascism. You don’t have that and you’re not getting it, either.
It’s only liberals (and liberal media) that strips the actual political meaning out of the term
Do you think conservatives are liberals? What is a liberal to you? Since we are criticizing removing political meaning from a word, I want to clarify this
Do you think conservatives are liberals?
Lol! What else did you think they were?
Did the fact that they both fetishize capitalism convince you they were different ideologies?
Or the fact that they both fetishize the “Rule Of Law” and the liberal nation state?
Or the fact that they are both perfectly fine with imperialism?
“Hot button” issues hystericized by the media does not actually qualify as ideological differentiators.
No, I am aware conservatives are liberals. Liberalism means they are for capitalism. Did you see how I was asking to clarify what you meant? Why did you assume my knowledge?
Because it’s only liberals that do not want to accept the truth about liberalism that respond to me here on lemmy.
Sorry if I jumped the gun.
Who cares - go for it?
With your username, I would think you’d be more enthusiastic and cheering them on lol
Careful. The Trad Wives were already planning on out competing progressives for their upcoming… “culture war”. We risk Idiocracy scenario.
I think we’re way past idiocracy
Wait I’m confused, so the trad wives are going to slut it up to counteract the protest?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZxWjMJJzag
They’re not going to “slut it up”. They’re going to make babies with their husbands non stop because they think it’s their GOD given purpose to create soldiers for their holy war.
They’re going to need them after RFK jr is finished with the FDA and 8/9 of their kids die of preventable diseases that we’ve made great again.
Considering they believe in faith healing, they’re already doing that.
That’s just their standard operating procedure. I thought they were ramping up with some new clever counter protest. Thank white Jesus they can only pump out one every nine months.
Breeders
Not gonna lie, slutty 60s themed cosplay doesn’t sound half bad.
Right! Sign me up for some of that!
