Crows and also parrots are the smartes animals, on the same level as dolphins and great simios.
I saw a study showing that corvids are able to do transfer learning where they apply lessons learned in one context within a different context, which is something that even chimps aren’t able to do.
What’s really impressive about corvids is that their brains are so small, and evidently wired much more efficiently than primate brains. I imagine part of the reason is that they need to fly, which creates selection pressure for more efficient wiring that facilitates smaller brains.
Interestingly, it turns out human brains have massive amounts of redundancy. There’s a case of a guy who effectively had 90% of his brain missing and was functioning just fine.
There’s a cool study where researchers wore masks to catch crows in traps and weigh them, do health checks etc, nothing painfully for the animals but they don’t love it, now many years later young crows from that group who weren’t even alive for that study hate on people who wear those masks. I’d like to imagine the adult crows tell horror stories around the nest to warn the young ones, but its probably much less novel ;) https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/uw-professor-learns-crows-dont-forget-a-face/
that’s so cool 😯
Generational trauma in crows, damn.
That’s an amazing story. :)
I do not believe that there is redundancy in the human brain, because it involves more than just intellectual capacity in its operation. The evolutionary process avoids energy waste, especially in organs as demanding as the brain. The evolutionary trend is always for maximum efficiency.
We are talking about the capacity of new synaptic connections, which in the human brain is infinitely more complex than that of an animal brain (except in some that I know of), to be more capable of varying and improvising on a topic or learned skill, the capacity for abstraction, etc., much more limited in animals, already independent of pure intelligence and the ability to solve everyday problems, this can we observe even in a little portia spider.
As intelligent as crows undoubtedly are, I doubt very much that they are capable of learning quantum physics, as it is also certain to this poor man with only 10% of a brain, although he is capable of being able to function in a relatively normal life. Normally we don’t use more than 10% of our brain at a time, but the key is which 10% we can use at one time. To use a simil, using only an office suite, there are not much differences between an old Pentium and a novaday high end Gaming PC
There absolutely has to be redundancy as the case of the guy with 90% of the brain missing shows. Note that his brain ended up wiring itself differently from a regular brain. So, the fact that most of the brain is missing doesn’t translate to saying that a regular person uses only 10% of the brain. Most of the brain tends to be active, but it’s just not wired as efficiently.
There are also cases where people get entire hemisphere removed due to epilepsy or injury and are still able to function fine. This is again indication that brain can adapt itself to work with severely reduced resources.
Crows obviously don’t have the same capacity as human brain, but if their architecture was scaled up to a comparably sized network then it could potentially outpace what the human brain is capable of.
I think all of this has interesting implications for AI. If we only need to create a network the size of a crow brain to achieve basic intelligence, that’s far more achievable than having to implement one the size of a regular human brain. And we could potentially create human level intelligence or even surpass it with a much smaller neural network.
I suspect the topology of the network is key, and as we continue to get better scanning techniques we’ll eventually learn enough about biological brains to emulate them in sufficient detail which may be a path towards real AI.
Maybe, but I don’t believe that redundance is the reason of the bigger volumen. Certainly there is no need of the whole brain for a relative normal life (a lot of people prove this, some of them became even presidents). I think in another simil, if you have a holographic photo and you cut it in pieces, every piece has the full picture informacion, but in a very lower resolution each one. As I say before, in the nature no exist the redundance, it’s a question of energy which guide the evolution. They don’t give more resources as needed for the good life in it’s environment.
I’d argue that the brain volume alone is not nearly as important as how it’s wired. There are lots of animals with high brain volumes that aren’t terribly intelligent. While there is evolutionary pressure to optimize energy use, there is also a competing pressure to make the system more robust. Having redundancy means that the brain can survive more severe trauma creating an evolutionary advantage. Meanwhile, birds have a stronger selection for optimization since they have to be able to fly and hence why I think we see more efficient brain architecture emerge.
Yes, whales have a bigger brain, but not in relation to their boddy mass. They are also animals with considerable intelligence, although not as much as those of the Delfinoid family, such as Dolphins and Orcas, whose brains in relation to their body mass is much higher and also much more complex.
Yeah, we tend to underestimate the intelligence of other animals and use anthropocentric perspective when thinking about intelligence.
i read this as : Cows … then Crows … then again Cows. My reading skills are often quite bad 😆. At least i can lol.
P.S. : Great discussion here between @Zerush@lemmy.ml and @yogthos@lemmy.ml .
i bet that, when General Artificial intelligence will be achieved it will be quite simple, like with the discovery of flight - - so many complex proposals, yet the solution was quite simple !
Nature produces all kinds of things : some lightweight, some intelligent, many places with redundancies … often necessary for stability. it’s optimisation process can do great things, yet, with technology it can do some more.Also cows are very smart animals, also sheeps which are ables to recognize themselves in a mirror, pigs even know how to play simple video games with a joystick. Certainly many animals are considerably more intelligent than previously thought. Crows and parrots not only know how to repeat words, but also understand their meaning, they are, together with the great apes, the only ones who allow an intelligible conversation, although with the apes only through sign language, since they lack of a phonetic apparatus necessary to be able to articulate words.
Don’t tell anyone: i like meat 🤭 !
i worked on many ranches including sheep. Sheep are the dumbest fucking animal i ever had to deal with.
There is some evidence that the brain has a common recurrent structure to it. On Intelligence is a really fun read about this.
Thanks for the free book 😃
Jeff Hawkins - On Intelligence.pdf 1.5_MB 174_pages dates to 2004
You pinpoint it’s core :(brain’s) common recurrent structure
Reviews of his new book 2021
He is on Wikipediamy comments while reading
★ Entrepreneur’s & pragmatic approach to the question of creating G.A.i. : major subject : beginning of a new era.
★ Mountcastle’s paper : Main point = The same 6 layered neurone structure in every part of the cortex : it would produce a single workflow (“algorithm”)
★ Great book, culmination of his life’s passion - - some examples a bit long and repetitive - - which is best for lay person (newbies) ? humm…
★ on page 100 : one whole paragraph is repeated twice in a row after a few pages with confusion. Contradictory statements are numerous thereIt’s been a while since I read it. The main parts that stuck with me were about the approach of trying to map out brain structures and figure out what they do. Then implement these in a neural network and see if they produce similar results. This seems like the right approach for trying to figure out how to implement a biologically inspired AI. And the part about the 6 layered structure being repeated in the cortex is very encouraging. If it is a single repeating structure, then there’s a good chance we’ll be able to figure out the algorithm there.
i agree & many thanks again 👍
Also cats and dogs, principally Border Collies, are far from be stupid.
Cows are 600Kg lap-dogs.
You didn’t misread “crows” as “cows” like i did … did you ?
Another kick in the balls of mainstream science.
How so? This is mainstream science.
“It is a well-known paradox that humans are certainly the most cognitively advanced species but nevertheless show a smaller average brain size, by weight or volume, than elephants and whales. One attempt at a resolution of this paradox invoked the encephalization quotient (EQ), a measure of brain mass normalized essentially by body mass (Jerison, 1973). Many researchers found EQ appealing because it served well to distinguish humans from other species, but this measure turns not to provide an acceptable rank order of other species (Deaner, Isler, Burkart, & van Schaik, 2007; MacLean et al., 2014); for example, monkeys are more encephalized than the undoubtedly intelligent great apes (Deaner, van Schaik, & Johnson, 2006). Furthermore, the notion of an EQ may not be applicable to individual differences within the human species, for both birds and mammals exhibit within-species brain-body scaling that is weaker and more variable than in other vertebrates (Tsuboi et al., 2018).”
so the higher intelligence in humans is not produced by :
size of brain (1),
mass of brain (2),
EQ == (2) / body mass,Could it be related to the surface area of the neocortex ?
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I doubt it’s mainstream even though it was published on Science.
What do you mean by “mainstream science” ? Is it the scientific consensus ? Is it science as the mainstream media see it ? Is it science as perceived by the majority of people ?
Fine. It’s just that brain size is supposed to matter in intelligence, but this proves that it might not be the case. Even though it is said that brain to body size makes a difference, crows are just too advanced. And mainstream science would be what the major players in science say it’s true + what the mainstream media says.
Ah yes, because the scientists are conspiring to trick us into believing that crows are all dumb
