Taiwan proposed on Thursday $19 billion in defence spending for next year, a double-digit increase on 2022 that includes funds for new fighter jets, weeks after China staged large-scale military exercises around the island it views as its territory.
Come on, we all know that the only reason this position is held by the UN is because of the CPC throwing around it’s weight, not because of some divinely inspired truth. And to say that the US supports the claim is disingenuous. It “acknowledges” China’s position, but does not support it.
What is even the point that you’re trying to make here. No law is a divinely inspired truth, these are legal contracts that societies make. The legal standing of Taiwan is crystal clear.
My point is that citing the UN’s position is in a sense circular. The UN only holds that position because China holds that position, not because it actually reflects the reality on the ground for the past 70 years.
The UN holds this position because TAIWAN holds the position that it is part of China and the true rulers of all of mainland China, also parts of it that aren’t even China like Mongolia and even more of India.
The position of Taiwan being part of China was established because Taiwan agreed with that position completely and utterly. The only disagreement between those governing it was over who governs all of China.
It has fuck all to do with “throwing its weight around”. You are literally revising and changing history to suit your own made up beliefs. China had a civil war, the communists pushed the Chinese government to Taiwan and then left them there, this government claimed rule over all of China, the communist government claimed rule over all of China. Nobody claimed Taiwan wasn’t part of China. It was never a dispute. Taiwan was and still is a district of China that has a rogue governing body that the communists decided not to bother dealing with, in part because they were distracted by the Korean war where the Americans murdered 20% of the population of Korea.
Taiwan is part of China. The modern push for independence is secessionism by this longstanding rogue governing body inherited from the civil war. These are historical facts.
The dispute at the UN was over who should be recognised as the ruling government of China, and the communists were recognised by everyone, including the US. Taiwan not being part of China was never ever part of that, including by Taiwan itself.
Taiwan is far from a rogue governing body. It’s a complete state that has governed Taiwan for 70 years. Yes, it is a vestige from a civil war that never really quite managed to reach its conclusion. But the fact of the matter is that China has no legitimate claim over Taiwan. It never won that part of the civil war. That territory has been held by the Taiwanese government and the Taiwanese people increasingly do not identify as Chinese.
Taiwan is looking at declaring independence, but China has made it clear that it will instantly invade if Taiwan does so. The US has also said that Taiwan will be on its own if it rocks the boat by changing the status quo. So here we sit with an ambiguous status, at least in terms of what countries are willing to call Taiwan’s status.
Which makes it secessionism of a region everyone has agreed is China by the rogue governing body of that region. That body being disconnected is exactly what makes it “rogue”. It is a governing body. It is disconnected. It is a rogue governing body of a region of China, one they should have dealt with a very long time ago but decided upon different priorities.
You can dislike this reality all you want but it doesn’t make it any less factual. That is the situation.
and the Taiwanese people increasingly do not identify as Chinese.
You agree yourself that the majority identify as Chinese then.
How very democratic of you to want to split a part of a country away when the majority identify as being part of that country. Truly a lover of democracy.
You agree yourself that the majority identify as Chinese then.
No. This running survey shows differently. The majority identifies as Taiwanese only (67%) with most of the rest having some dual identity as Taiwanese and Chinese. A vanishingly small number identify as Chinese alone.
Taiwan and its government is not rogue. This is an independent people with an independent government. No matter how China tries to frame it, invading Taiwan means invading an independent people and country.
This is widely discredited. It’s weighted sampling with undisclosed weighting and draws from only people with landline telephones. The methodology is here.
Furthermore, you get wildly different results from these surveys depending on how you ask the question. For example if you give people fixed choices you might get something like the above, but if you give people multiple choice by just listing a bunch of identities and letting people tick boxes with no inherent leading by presenting it as an independence question you get this, which is widely regarded as a less biased and more scientific approach:
Obviously this is quite a split country on the topic, but it’s not as clear cut as you seem to think it is. And I think you should also keep in mind that an absolute majority are not for independence, they are for the status quo. 65% of people opposed Pelosi’s visit as well.
Taiwan is not an independent state, and there is no legal basis for that assertion. China has every legitimate claim over Taiwan and claiming otherwise is complete and utter nonsense that’s not based in reality. Even Taiwan has never considered itself as not being part of China. The historical contention was which was the legitimate government of all of China. I implore you to actually spend the time toe educate yourself on the subject if you’re going to keep arguing about it.
The claim is that the CPC has legitimate authority over the Taiwanese land. When did the CPC ever take that land? When has it ever governed it? Never. The CPC can wave around recognition they’ve gotten out of governments all they like. It doesn’t change that that is not how Taiwan is.
I get that’s what the CPC’s claim is. I just think it’s an incredibly faulty claim, given that they’ve never governed Taiwan. They’ve just said that they do.
It is circular in that international law is that way only because China has muscled its way into making it that way. It’s not that way because there’s a basis in reality.
If anything, the fact that Taiwan acts as if its indepedent is US muscling its way into China as opposed to other way around. This would be akin to China pouring billions into Hawaii, Puerto Rico, or Texas for the past 70s years and fostering separatism there. This is an unprecedented level of interference in the affairs of another country. That’s the basis for reality here.
Oh, BTW with Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and Texas. Hawaii and Texas have no credible succession movements. China is welcome to waste billions. Puerto Rico is in the process of figuring out for itself what its status will be. If it chooses independence, it sounds like the US will respect that.
You keep framing this as if it’s just between people in mainland China and Taiwan with no external factors involved. This is a false narrative that ignores the elephant in the room. US spends huge amounts of money influencing politics in other countries. If China or Russia spend comparable sums then they too could easily create secessionist movements in US. You get that right?
I was with you until you showed you’re just as biased as the other side in this thread.
US embargoed Cuba for not bending over. You think they will let go of Puerto Rico without dismantling their livelihoods and ruining their reputation one way or the other? That alone is going to sway public opinions out of fear. And US has been invading other countries without any basis for decades. You seem to forget all that.
Would you even see any credible secession movement if they control media the world over?
I don’t think Taiwan is part of China but you took the US propaganda wholesale.
If you argue like this, then the entire UN structure disappears, and the rule of all countries comes into question. Who says that Puerto Rico, Guam or Hawaii legally belong to the United States? Other countries have only accepted that because of the US throwing around its weight.
Oh, I forgot the other thing. Decisions on admitting states to the UN have to go through the UN Security Council, where it is subject to a veto by… drum roll… China! So it wouldn’t even matter if every other country in the world considered Taiwan a separate country, it can’t join the UN. Thus, that’s a false metric.
You also forget The United States gets a veto making this reply add nothing to the debate. I can say the same thing here. “Oh I forgot one thing, Decision on admitting states to the UN have to fo through the UN security Council. where it is subject to a veto by… drum roll… the United States! so it would not even matter if every other country in the world considered Puerto Rico a separate country, it can’t join the UN. Thus, that’s a false metric.”
On top of this, there are none member countries that the UN recognizes, like Vatican City (through the holy sea) and Palistine. We also have that by far and away the majority of countries do not recognize Chinese Tiapei as an independent nation, this includes Chinese Tiapei, they recognize themselves officially as part of China with there official capital Nanjing, territory including all of the south china sea, more so than the Peoples Republic of China claims, and Mongolia, and a few other places. The difference is Chinese Tiapei calls itself the “Republic of China” and says it is still the one true government, a statement that is as laughable as it is false. Most nations of the world see this statement by the ROC as the farce it is
Come on, we all know that the only reason this position is held by the UN is because of the CPC throwing around it’s weight, not because of some divinely inspired truth. And to say that the US supports the claim is disingenuous. It “acknowledges” China’s position, but does not support it.
What is even the point that you’re trying to make here. No law is a divinely inspired truth, these are legal contracts that societies make. The legal standing of Taiwan is crystal clear.
My point is that citing the UN’s position is in a sense circular. The UN only holds that position because China holds that position, not because it actually reflects the reality on the ground for the past 70 years.
The UN holds this position because TAIWAN holds the position that it is part of China and the true rulers of all of mainland China, also parts of it that aren’t even China like Mongolia and even more of India.
The position of Taiwan being part of China was established because Taiwan agreed with that position completely and utterly. The only disagreement between those governing it was over who governs all of China.
It has fuck all to do with “throwing its weight around”. You are literally revising and changing history to suit your own made up beliefs. China had a civil war, the communists pushed the Chinese government to Taiwan and then left them there, this government claimed rule over all of China, the communist government claimed rule over all of China. Nobody claimed Taiwan wasn’t part of China. It was never a dispute. Taiwan was and still is a district of China that has a rogue governing body that the communists decided not to bother dealing with, in part because they were distracted by the Korean war where the Americans murdered 20% of the population of Korea.
Taiwan is part of China. The modern push for independence is secessionism by this longstanding rogue governing body inherited from the civil war. These are historical facts.
The dispute at the UN was over who should be recognised as the ruling government of China, and the communists were recognised by everyone, including the US. Taiwan not being part of China was never ever part of that, including by Taiwan itself.
Taiwan is far from a rogue governing body. It’s a complete state that has governed Taiwan for 70 years. Yes, it is a vestige from a civil war that never really quite managed to reach its conclusion. But the fact of the matter is that China has no legitimate claim over Taiwan. It never won that part of the civil war. That territory has been held by the Taiwanese government and the Taiwanese people increasingly do not identify as Chinese.
Taiwan is looking at declaring independence, but China has made it clear that it will instantly invade if Taiwan does so. The US has also said that Taiwan will be on its own if it rocks the boat by changing the status quo. So here we sit with an ambiguous status, at least in terms of what countries are willing to call Taiwan’s status.
Which makes it secessionism of a region everyone has agreed is China by the rogue governing body of that region. That body being disconnected is exactly what makes it “rogue”. It is a governing body. It is disconnected. It is a rogue governing body of a region of China, one they should have dealt with a very long time ago but decided upon different priorities.
You can dislike this reality all you want but it doesn’t make it any less factual. That is the situation.
You agree yourself that the majority identify as Chinese then.
How very democratic of you to want to split a part of a country away when the majority identify as being part of that country. Truly a lover of democracy.
No. This running survey shows differently. The majority identifies as Taiwanese only (67%) with most of the rest having some dual identity as Taiwanese and Chinese. A vanishingly small number identify as Chinese alone.
Taiwan and its government is not rogue. This is an independent people with an independent government. No matter how China tries to frame it, invading Taiwan means invading an independent people and country.
This is widely discredited. It’s weighted sampling with undisclosed weighting and draws from only people with landline telephones. The methodology is here.
Furthermore, you get wildly different results from these surveys depending on how you ask the question. For example if you give people fixed choices you might get something like the above, but if you give people multiple choice by just listing a bunch of identities and letting people tick boxes with no inherent leading by presenting it as an independence question you get this, which is widely regarded as a less biased and more scientific approach:
Obviously this is quite a split country on the topic, but it’s not as clear cut as you seem to think it is. And I think you should also keep in mind that an absolute majority are not for independence, they are for the status quo. 65% of people opposed Pelosi’s visit as well.
Taiwan is not an independent state, and there is no legal basis for that assertion. China has every legitimate claim over Taiwan and claiming otherwise is complete and utter nonsense that’s not based in reality. Even Taiwan has never considered itself as not being part of China. The historical contention was which was the legitimate government of all of China. I implore you to actually spend the time toe educate yourself on the subject if you’re going to keep arguing about it.
The claim is that the CPC has legitimate authority over the Taiwanese land. When did the CPC ever take that land? When has it ever governed it? Never. The CPC can wave around recognition they’ve gotten out of governments all they like. It doesn’t change that that is not how Taiwan is.
Taiwan is a region of China. CPC is the legal government of China. Are those two facts so difficult to get into your head?
I get that’s what the CPC’s claim is. I just think it’s an incredibly faulty claim, given that they’ve never governed Taiwan. They’ve just said that they do.
In what way is it circular to cite international law, and how exactly does this not reflect the reality on the ground for the past 70 years?
It is circular in that international law is that way only because China has muscled its way into making it that way. It’s not that way because there’s a basis in reality.
If anything, the fact that Taiwan acts as if its indepedent is US muscling its way into China as opposed to other way around. This would be akin to China pouring billions into Hawaii, Puerto Rico, or Texas for the past 70s years and fostering separatism there. This is an unprecedented level of interference in the affairs of another country. That’s the basis for reality here.
Oh, BTW with Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and Texas. Hawaii and Texas have no credible succession movements. China is welcome to waste billions. Puerto Rico is in the process of figuring out for itself what its status will be. If it chooses independence, it sounds like the US will respect that.
You keep framing this as if it’s just between people in mainland China and Taiwan with no external factors involved. This is a false narrative that ignores the elephant in the room. US spends huge amounts of money influencing politics in other countries. If China or Russia spend comparable sums then they too could easily create secessionist movements in US. You get that right?
I was with you until you showed you’re just as biased as the other side in this thread.
US embargoed Cuba for not bending over. You think they will let go of Puerto Rico without dismantling their livelihoods and ruining their reputation one way or the other? That alone is going to sway public opinions out of fear. And US has been invading other countries without any basis for decades. You seem to forget all that.
Would you even see any credible secession movement if they control media the world over?
I don’t think Taiwan is part of China but you took the US propaganda wholesale.
So you don’t respect the views of the Taiwanese people? They are not allowed to think for themselves?
That’s a good question, why does US not let Taiwanese people think for themselves and spends billions on shaping public opinion there?
What billions to shape public opinion? Or are you referring to military aid, which has nothing to do with public opinion.
You are not Taiwanese, so you dont deserve any judgement on this matter.
I agree. I respect their opinion and their opinion alone.
If you argue like this, then the entire UN structure disappears, and the rule of all countries comes into question. Who says that Puerto Rico, Guam or Hawaii legally belong to the United States? Other countries have only accepted that because of the US throwing around its weight.
Oh, I forgot the other thing. Decisions on admitting states to the UN have to go through the UN Security Council, where it is subject to a veto by… drum roll… China! So it wouldn’t even matter if every other country in the world considered Taiwan a separate country, it can’t join the UN. Thus, that’s a false metric.
You also forget The United States gets a veto making this reply add nothing to the debate. I can say the same thing here. “Oh I forgot one thing, Decision on admitting states to the UN have to fo through the UN security Council. where it is subject to a veto by… drum roll… the United States! so it would not even matter if every other country in the world considered Puerto Rico a separate country, it can’t join the UN. Thus, that’s a false metric.”
On top of this, there are none member countries that the UN recognizes, like Vatican City (through the holy sea) and Palistine. We also have that by far and away the majority of countries do not recognize Chinese Tiapei as an independent nation, this includes Chinese Tiapei, they recognize themselves officially as part of China with there official capital Nanjing, territory including all of the south china sea, more so than the Peoples Republic of China claims, and Mongolia, and a few other places. The difference is Chinese Tiapei calls itself the “Republic of China” and says it is still the one true government, a statement that is as laughable as it is false. Most nations of the world see this statement by the ROC as the farce it is