Not accepting that people need time to adjust and maybe go vegan in smaller steps. There is even hostility towards people who look for fake meat or dare to say they like the taste of meat even though they still want to avoid eating it. Just generally being assholes and gatekeepers.
That’s been my experience too. I’m trying to eat less meat and find alternatives that work for me, but it apparently has to be all or fuck you for some. I know it’s not everyone, but somehow they seem the loudest and it’s not very helpful.
i completely agree, i just dislike the flavour of protein in general, it’s hard to find things that i like and maybe a lot of vegan options just don’t hide the bean taste enough for me either, the most processed meat has always been the most edible to me and i love a lot of vegan processed options as well, but when faced with the $2 sausages or the $7 sausages, it shouldn’t be expected to be the easiest choice for a shopper to make imo, i love anyone willing to take up that front for sure, but it’s funny just how willing some people seem to be to alienate people entirely from something that could only grow the gateway into the movement
i only eat so much quinoa and soba because it’s quicker to eat and doesn’t taste like meat or beans which are both honestly pretty good if they’re done right, but i don’t have the time or money, i look forward to the days of cheaper vegan options but we’re still a ways off and i splurge just whenever i can
also, if someone ever comes out with a vegan lil’ smokies (not a bbq carrot), and if someone remembers this post, pls msg me cause i would actually pay up to $12 a pack to fund the mission for something good and gross and easy like that for a litl potluck or even just for me with some mustard and pillsbury crescents -_-
This is a natural consequence of always being attacked by non-vegans, patience is thin and communities are maintained by the ones who remain. Unlike, say, gaming, veganism is constantly attacked, so it’s harder for them to be more inclusive than a gaming community would be.
None of the vegans I know in real life are as hostile as some vegans get online. Probably a majority of vegans I see online (or in interviews, articles, etc.) aren’t hostile. The hostility is coming mostly from vegans who think it’s a useful tactic to get others to agree with them.
It’s a whole other discussion about how effective that tactic is, or who it’s effective on. But it is definitely a choice, because there are tons of vegans out there who choose to present their ideas differently.
Seems a bit like a vicious circle to me. Hate against vegans leading to a hateful reaction, leading to vegans being perceived as assholes, leading to more hate against vegans etc. I guess it’s understandable, but it also seems counterproductive for spreading veganism.
Anecdotally, as a vegetarian I can say that the most vicious attacks against my lifestyle were not by meat eaters but some vegans (online-vegans to be precise, all I’ve met IRL were nice people). That’s despite me certainly never attacking veganism, I even think it’s morally superior to vegetarianism.
I really think this is an incredibly insightful take. I can’t say I hang out in many vegan specific corners of the Internet, but I know there is a very active and vocal segment of the Internet community that’s anti-vegan, I’ve heard stories of coordinated brigading attempts against vegan communities on the Internet.
I’d imagine it would be almost impossible to run an open and welcoming community when you are getting constantly inundated with hate messages, eventually it would become incredibly difficult to discern between a user who has genuine curiosity and one who is asking bad faith questions in order to trigger some kind of debate.
At this point in time you couldn’t pay me to become a mod in one of those communities, it really seems like a no win scenario.
Eventually, maybe less aggro people will join and the cycle will break. Being ovo-lacto-veg is cool now. Or maybe not, because veganism isn’t based on ideas that modern people already agree with, but rather suggests a whole new system for how animals should be treated. Like, they’re against continuing to keep dogs as pets.
Here is the thing, I was a vegetarian who was exposed to vegan “bullying” and it pushed me to veganism after seeing the contradictions between what I said and what I was doing. Not only did it work on me, literally hundreds of people have thanked me for helping them go vegan when I ran vegan circlejerk on reddit over the course of years.
No one tactic works, if you knew how to make vegans, you’d be vegan. For some people the vegan circlejerk style activism works with receipts, for others not so much. There is no right answer. If there was one correct way to promote and build veganism then the world would already be vegan.
I know for a fact though that I’ve helped 3 people in my own life and have received tons of messages in appreciation for what I did. No other social justice won supporters by being nice either. Civil rights are not gained by asking nicely.
This is the thing. You will find that close to 100% of the people defending militant veganism here are militant about other things as well. Some of these names are pretty familiar.
This attitude is the entire problem. You know exactly what OP means, but you pretend like the reputation the vegan community has nothing to do with the community itself.
Previously I found that they were staunchly anti-anything but vegan and carried over said rudeness from the reddit communities. As a vegan myself it was a big turn off. I asked about this and they banned me. Reminiscent of lemmygrad on anything but their specific MLM ideology.
Lemmygrad aren’t MLM, they are ML with Dengist sympathies and are anti-Gonzaloist, but regardless most Vegans on the fediverse are Vegan because of strict ethical and moral reasons and believe in full animal liberation. It’s hard to take a half-way stance on that matter with that frame of mind, which can manifest itself in “rudeness.” Additionally, most Vegans experience tons of hostility, making them more defensive by default.
I wouldn’t say Lemmygrad has odd takes for being MLs, they are extremely consistent with most organized ML parties worldwide. I’d need to know what you mean by “odd,” the fact that they have an ML line or their interpretation of ML, the latter of which is very standard from what I have seen.
Back to Veganism, I haven’t experienced hostility, and I think it’s generally going to be that way unless you bash veganism or defend antiveganism or non-veganism, hence the point of a vegan community. Just my 2 cents.
That’s good to know, thanks for sharing! I appreciate your explanations.
IDK, I disagree. I’ve experienced it both on reddit and here. Everyone is vegan or vegetarian for their own reasons, I don’t think enforces a specific ideology or you can’t discuss is fair to newbies or anyone is doesn’t 100% agree.
Regardless, I will look for another not lemmy.world one.
The supermajority of self described vegans are ethical vegans. Ethical veganism is not a diet.
For example, animal products you find in a trash can are ethically vegan because consuming them does not contribute to, or create economic demand for animal abuse. First-hand leather products (which you do not eat) are absolutely not ethically vegan.
Gotcha. In my opinion, one must understand both viewpoints, that of the newcomer and that of the tired, long-ime vegan. Looking at problems from one side alone is anti-dialectical and results in false conclusions. There will be no perfect community for the new and the old, and communities are made and maintained by the old so it will lean in their favor regardless.
You can be the change you want to see. If you find a community that is close to what you want, you can actively participate and offer suggestions to help “onboarding” of new vegans. I try to do the same with Marxism, even making an intro reading list that I frequently share (and keep linked on my profile), because I know other comrades are more tired and hostile as a consequence. I refuse to blame hostile reaction when existence itself is under siege regularly, be it veganism or Marxism, and would rather take on the proactive mantle myself.
I always wonder where people are going that this seems so common. I’ve been relatively low meat for a while, what’s called half-vegetarian/flexatarian. My experience is that most vegans/vegetarians just want to share their favorite recipe.
In my experience, this usually comes from people defending half-measures, which is fundamentally wrong from the vegan point of view, and thus the claws come out. If you aren’t going against the “correct” stance, vegans are very chill, as someone who is low meat as well I am working on eradicating that (which at this point is more of a social problem than individual).
I mean as a grumpy vegan it basically seems like hanging out with someone who’s like “Look, we’re reducing bombing hospitals but we still want to take the land” or something. It is a fundamental disconnect which still frames other living beings as things you can extend or revoke consideration from depending on how much you want what you get from killing them.
Would fewer non human animals be exploited in a meatless Monday world? Yes. Would that world still be an unimaginably cruel and hideous Holocaust of suffering created for selfish reasons by beings who know better? Yes.
Okay, but if you live in a world where hospitals are being bombed continuously, and you can push for bombs to not be dropped on Mondays, why would you ever not want that? Sure, it still won’t be the reality you want to live in, but it’s a step in the right direction. And if you can get people comfortable with Mondays, then that creates a much easier platform to talk about, “look that wasn’t so hard, why don’t we also include Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, and keep going from there”.
In my experience, the majority of people I interact with who aren’t vegan feel like the going 0 to 60 on full veganism is way too difficult and intimidating, especially when all their friends and family still eat meat.
Like I empathize with the moral dilemma militant vegans find themselves in, but if the world doesn’t match your ideals, is throwing a tantrum and vilifying people the best way to change hearts and minds?
Not wanting to rehash the same arguments over and over again when if you were genuinely interested you could find thousands of crystalised dialogues on the internet going over them is part of the reason we ban shit like this on vtc.
Do you expect to convince a lot of people you’re right with this approach? If you want to get a lot of people to agree with you, it’s not enough to have all the right ideas written down somewhere. You do have to educate and persuade, that’s just a fundamental part of any social movement.
When you’re hanging out with your friends do you call over every racist you see in the hopes of convincing them that they can be better?
I strongly suspect that you too find places where you can disengage from horror and just exist without constantly defending your ethics and being dogpiled by a world that thinks you’re at best misguided and at worst a cultural traitor.
I mean look at this, I explained why these spaces seem hostile in an extremely neutral and non-judgemental way and immediately got people who do not share my values at all tell me how I’m doing my values wrong because I’m not catering to them 24/7. It’s exhausting.
We’re not talking about hanging with friends and interrupting a conversation to call out them out over ethics. We’re talking about people coming to you and engaging with you directly on this topic. It’s hard to imagine a scenario more conducive to changing someone’s mind, but you do have to put in effort instead of just dismissing them.
“I empathize but don’t think you have the best approach” is not hostility. It’s a disagreement.
What do you mean by “militant and rude?”
Not accepting that people need time to adjust and maybe go vegan in smaller steps. There is even hostility towards people who look for fake meat or dare to say they like the taste of meat even though they still want to avoid eating it. Just generally being assholes and gatekeepers.
That’s been my experience too. I’m trying to eat less meat and find alternatives that work for me, but it apparently has to be all or fuck you for some. I know it’s not everyone, but somehow they seem the loudest and it’s not very helpful.
i completely agree, i just dislike the flavour of protein in general, it’s hard to find things that i like and maybe a lot of vegan options just don’t hide the bean taste enough for me either, the most processed meat has always been the most edible to me and i love a lot of vegan processed options as well, but when faced with the $2 sausages or the $7 sausages, it shouldn’t be expected to be the easiest choice for a shopper to make imo, i love anyone willing to take up that front for sure, but it’s funny just how willing some people seem to be to alienate people entirely from something that could only grow the gateway into the movement
i only eat so much quinoa and soba because it’s quicker to eat and doesn’t taste like meat or beans which are both honestly pretty good if they’re done right, but i don’t have the time or money, i look forward to the days of cheaper vegan options but we’re still a ways off and i splurge just whenever i can
also, if someone ever comes out with a vegan lil’ smokies (not a bbq carrot), and if someone remembers this post, pls msg me cause i would actually pay up to $12 a pack to fund the mission for something good and gross and easy like that for a litl potluck or even just for me with some mustard and pillsbury crescents -_-
This is a natural consequence of always being attacked by non-vegans, patience is thin and communities are maintained by the ones who remain. Unlike, say, gaming, veganism is constantly attacked, so it’s harder for them to be more inclusive than a gaming community would be.
None of the vegans I know in real life are as hostile as some vegans get online. Probably a majority of vegans I see online (or in interviews, articles, etc.) aren’t hostile. The hostility is coming mostly from vegans who think it’s a useful tactic to get others to agree with them.
It’s a whole other discussion about how effective that tactic is, or who it’s effective on. But it is definitely a choice, because there are tons of vegans out there who choose to present their ideas differently.
Seems a bit like a vicious circle to me. Hate against vegans leading to a hateful reaction, leading to vegans being perceived as assholes, leading to more hate against vegans etc. I guess it’s understandable, but it also seems counterproductive for spreading veganism.
Anecdotally, as a vegetarian I can say that the most vicious attacks against my lifestyle were not by meat eaters but some vegans (online-vegans to be precise, all I’ve met IRL were nice people). That’s despite me certainly never attacking veganism, I even think it’s morally superior to vegetarianism.
I really think this is an incredibly insightful take. I can’t say I hang out in many vegan specific corners of the Internet, but I know there is a very active and vocal segment of the Internet community that’s anti-vegan, I’ve heard stories of coordinated brigading attempts against vegan communities on the Internet.
I’d imagine it would be almost impossible to run an open and welcoming community when you are getting constantly inundated with hate messages, eventually it would become incredibly difficult to discern between a user who has genuine curiosity and one who is asking bad faith questions in order to trigger some kind of debate.
At this point in time you couldn’t pay me to become a mod in one of those communities, it really seems like a no win scenario.
It’s certainly a contradiction, understanding the true nature of the problem is the first step to fixing it.
Yup.
Eventually, maybe less aggro people will join and the cycle will break. Being ovo-lacto-veg is cool now. Or maybe not, because veganism isn’t based on ideas that modern people already agree with, but rather suggests a whole new system for how animals should be treated. Like, they’re against continuing to keep dogs as pets.
Here is the thing, I was a vegetarian who was exposed to vegan “bullying” and it pushed me to veganism after seeing the contradictions between what I said and what I was doing. Not only did it work on me, literally hundreds of people have thanked me for helping them go vegan when I ran vegan circlejerk on reddit over the course of years.
No one tactic works, if you knew how to make vegans, you’d be vegan. For some people the vegan circlejerk style activism works with receipts, for others not so much. There is no right answer. If there was one correct way to promote and build veganism then the world would already be vegan.
I know for a fact though that I’ve helped 3 people in my own life and have received tons of messages in appreciation for what I did. No other social justice won supporters by being nice either. Civil rights are not gained by asking nicely.
G*mers are actually the most oppressed minority
🫠
Also, a lot of people that join fringe movements have a personality that craves conflict, and it becomes an outlet for it.
Non-carnism isn’t really so fringe anymore, but that’s pretty new, and may not have reached veganism specifically.
This is the thing. You will find that close to 100% of the people defending militant veganism here are militant about other things as well. Some of these names are pretty familiar.
This attitude is the entire problem. You know exactly what OP means, but you pretend like the reputation the vegan community has nothing to do with the community itself.
Previously I found that they were staunchly anti-anything but vegan and carried over said rudeness from the reddit communities. As a vegan myself it was a big turn off. I asked about this and they banned me. Reminiscent of lemmygrad on anything but their specific MLM ideology.
Lemmygrad aren’t MLM, they are ML with Dengist sympathies and are anti-Gonzaloist, but regardless most Vegans on the fediverse are Vegan because of strict ethical and moral reasons and believe in full animal liberation. It’s hard to take a half-way stance on that matter with that frame of mind, which can manifest itself in “rudeness.” Additionally, most Vegans experience tons of hostility, making them more defensive by default.
That makes sense about lemmygrad’s odd takes.
As a vegan I fully get that, but most vegan communities are hostile at best.
I wouldn’t say Lemmygrad has odd takes for being MLs, they are extremely consistent with most organized ML parties worldwide. I’d need to know what you mean by “odd,” the fact that they have an ML line or their interpretation of ML, the latter of which is very standard from what I have seen.
Back to Veganism, I haven’t experienced hostility, and I think it’s generally going to be that way unless you bash veganism or defend antiveganism or non-veganism, hence the point of a vegan community. Just my 2 cents.
That’s good to know, thanks for sharing! I appreciate your explanations.
IDK, I disagree. I’ve experienced it both on reddit and here. Everyone is vegan or vegetarian for their own reasons, I don’t think enforces a specific ideology or you can’t discuss is fair to newbies or anyone is doesn’t 100% agree.
Regardless, I will look for another not lemmy.world one.
A lot of people are vegan or vegetarian for the same reason. Plenty of groups within the movement have theory and a party line
A party line… for a diet?
The supermajority of self described vegans are ethical vegans. Ethical veganism is not a diet.
For example, animal products you find in a trash can are ethically vegan because consuming them does not contribute to, or create economic demand for animal abuse. First-hand leather products (which you do not eat) are absolutely not ethically vegan.
I’m not saying they’re different reasons I’m saying they’re not the same as one online forums singular enforced reason.
Gotcha. In my opinion, one must understand both viewpoints, that of the newcomer and that of the tired, long-ime vegan. Looking at problems from one side alone is anti-dialectical and results in false conclusions. There will be no perfect community for the new and the old, and communities are made and maintained by the old so it will lean in their favor regardless.
Good application of dialects but they can at least be nice… :/
You can be the change you want to see. If you find a community that is close to what you want, you can actively participate and offer suggestions to help “onboarding” of new vegans. I try to do the same with Marxism, even making an intro reading list that I frequently share (and keep linked on my profile), because I know other comrades are more tired and hostile as a consequence. I refuse to blame hostile reaction when existence itself is under siege regularly, be it veganism or Marxism, and would rather take on the proactive mantle myself.
fuck 'em
who
the rich
I always wonder where people are going that this seems so common. I’ve been relatively low meat for a while, what’s called half-vegetarian/flexatarian. My experience is that most vegans/vegetarians just want to share their favorite recipe.
In my experience, this usually comes from people defending half-measures, which is fundamentally wrong from the vegan point of view, and thus the claws come out. If you aren’t going against the “correct” stance, vegans are very chill, as someone who is low meat as well I am working on eradicating that (which at this point is more of a social problem than individual).
I mean as a grumpy vegan it basically seems like hanging out with someone who’s like “Look, we’re reducing bombing hospitals but we still want to take the land” or something. It is a fundamental disconnect which still frames other living beings as things you can extend or revoke consideration from depending on how much you want what you get from killing them.
Would fewer non human animals be exploited in a meatless Monday world? Yes. Would that world still be an unimaginably cruel and hideous Holocaust of suffering created for selfish reasons by beings who know better? Yes.
Okay, but if you live in a world where hospitals are being bombed continuously, and you can push for bombs to not be dropped on Mondays, why would you ever not want that? Sure, it still won’t be the reality you want to live in, but it’s a step in the right direction. And if you can get people comfortable with Mondays, then that creates a much easier platform to talk about, “look that wasn’t so hard, why don’t we also include Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, and keep going from there”.
In my experience, the majority of people I interact with who aren’t vegan feel like the going 0 to 60 on full veganism is way too difficult and intimidating, especially when all their friends and family still eat meat.
Like I empathize with the moral dilemma militant vegans find themselves in, but if the world doesn’t match your ideals, is throwing a tantrum and vilifying people the best way to change hearts and minds?
This is the debate about the israel-gaza conflict all over again
Not wanting to rehash the same arguments over and over again when if you were genuinely interested you could find thousands of crystalised dialogues on the internet going over them is part of the reason we ban shit like this on vtc.
Do you expect to convince a lot of people you’re right with this approach? If you want to get a lot of people to agree with you, it’s not enough to have all the right ideas written down somewhere. You do have to educate and persuade, that’s just a fundamental part of any social movement.
When you’re hanging out with your friends do you call over every racist you see in the hopes of convincing them that they can be better?
I strongly suspect that you too find places where you can disengage from horror and just exist without constantly defending your ethics and being dogpiled by a world that thinks you’re at best misguided and at worst a cultural traitor.
I mean look at this, I explained why these spaces seem hostile in an extremely neutral and non-judgemental way and immediately got people who do not share my values at all tell me how I’m doing my values wrong because I’m not catering to them 24/7. It’s exhausting.
We’re not talking about hanging with friends and interrupting a conversation to call out them out over ethics. We’re talking about people coming to you and engaging with you directly on this topic. It’s hard to imagine a scenario more conducive to changing someone’s mind, but you do have to put in effort instead of just dismissing them.
“I empathize but don’t think you have the best approach” is not hostility. It’s a disagreement.
Yep, that’s what I’m trying to get at! Thank you for putting it in better words!
You’re all through this thread being very sympathetic to vegans 🤨 I wish you luck following your heart as I think it is probably a kind one.
I wouldn’t count on it