Western "leftist"

I was in a kerfuffle with a western “leftist” on discord. I was once on a server called “socialism” but then i got kicked for being a “tankie”, but that’s not the point of this. When I asked about where “democratic socialism”, which is more of an us-not-them word than anything imo, worked out, they pointed to Gadaffiist Libya. What would be a good response to that?

@ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml
link
16
edit-2
3M

This is the first time I have heard of democratic socialists or social democrats upholding Gaddafi.

They kicked you for being a tankie then pointed to Gaddafi, lol.

The Free Penguin
creator
link
43M

I dont rly know much abt gaddafi

Frog of War
link
7
edit-2
3M

They don’t really deserve a response, tbh.

But, pretty much everyone who tried to establish Socialism without a violent revolution or the total support of the people has either been assassinated, or couped. With the shift in global politics towards pro-socialist models, we should see a bigger uptick in socialists being democratically elected, but with modern materialism, democratic socialism is an idealist’s goal.

I would say that you should stop arguing with people who completely disagree with you from the start, especially online. Thats just a waste of time. You can do something much more useful by joining a party

@X51
link
23M

It doesn’t relate. I lean towards the left. This is why you don’t talk politics online.

Devin
link
1
edit-2
3M

So does your form of communism have examples that worked?

The Free Penguin
creator
link
63M
  • China
  • Cuba
  • Vietnam
  • Laos
Devin
link
-23M

Does china actually have socialism?

The Free Penguin
creator
link
43M

Yes

Devin
link
03M

But don’t they have private ownership?

The Free Penguin
creator
link
43M

The US has the Bourgeoisie in the high ranks of the government. China doesn’t. The Chinese gov’t has strict regulations. China does not want a bourgeoisie, The USA does. China just keeps them out of necessity.

Devin
link
03M

So it isn’t socialism?

The Free Penguin
creator
link
33M

Yes, it is. If China were capitalist, all these people who got too power hungry wouldn’t be arrested.

Devin
link
23M

But isn’t socialism about the workers owning the means of production. If there’s still plenty of private ownership of the means of production, isn’t that not socialism?

Makan
link
13M

If there’s a democracy in China with the vanguard of the proletariat in power, it is socialism.

Devin
link
23M

So anyone can run and vote for who they want?

Makan
link
13M

Yes

Devin
link
03M

But doesn’t the central committee control who runs

Makan
link
13M

No. It’s done democratically.

The Free Penguin
creator
link
13M

Yes, as long as they are Marxist

Devin
link
23M

I thought the central committee controls who runs?

The Free Penguin
creator
link
13M

Yeah ok, and maybe, that’s for the better.

Devin
link
23M

And who elects the members of that committee?

The Free Penguin
creator
link
13M

The CPC

Devin
link
13M

So party members or previous committee members?

The Free Penguin
creator
link
13M

Party members#

The Free Penguin
creator
link
13M

Wdym

Devin
link
0
edit-2
3M

It feels odd to use that argument on a Dem soc when that’s a common argument against communists. Previous success or failure of a system doesn’t mean the system is inherently ineffective.

Sorry about the bad wording in the first one. I have fixed it now.

The Free Penguin
creator
link
23M

Marxism Leninism succeeded everywhere where it was tried, the USSR and the Eastern Bloc did not fall due to communism’s “inherent failure”. It fell due to the capitalists bribing Gorbačëv with PIZZA HUT, bringing an end to the USSR/Eastern Bloc. China, on the other hand, while trading with other countries, pushes state and local enterprise. While with Gorbačëv, it was like “tHaNkS tO gOrBaČëV, wE nOw hAvE pIzZa HuT”. Dem Soc, on the other hand, never became a stable country (unless you count gaddafiist libya) which most demsocs don’t even consider a demsoc.

Devin
link
13M

While I don’t think the USSR’s failure is due to communism, I’m saying that it’s odd to use the same sword used against us. The point should be that we have good ideas that don’t need to be stacked upon history. They’re just good ideas alone.

This is a community for those who are new to or unfamiliar with communist, socialist or simply leftist philosophy. Ask basic questions here and learn about what we stand for!

Rules:

  • Keep things SFW!
  • Keep posts and comments civil.
  • Don’t attack someone for not knowing “enough” about communism or leftism.
  • Civil discussion and debate is welcome, trolling and hate speech is not.
  • No racism, sexism, homophobia, inciting crime/violence, etc.
  • 0 user online
  • 1 user / day
  • 1 user / week
  • 6 user / month
  • 61 user / 6 month
  • 61 subscriber
  • 93 Post
  • 425 Comment
  • Modlog