• Taleya@aussie.zone
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    1 year ago

    One of these cultures has normalised vegan and vegetarianism for centuries, the other is trying to wean a meat-obsessed population.

    They are not the same thing, nor do they have the same requirements to reach their end goals

    • seitanic@lemmy.sdf.org
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      1 year ago

      How prevalent is veganism in India? Whenever I look at Indian food, it’s butter this and milk that. Sure, there are some very good vegan choices, but it seems to me that Indians love their dairy.

      • Taleya@aussie.zone
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        1 year ago

        Veganism is actually a fairly new phenomenon in general, a lot of Jains in particular have adopted it. But vegetarianism in India dates back over a thousand years BCE , so yeah, they’ve got a bit of a head start.

            • MenacingPerson@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Hi!

              I don’t mean like, online. I’ve met plenty of online Indian vegans. But still, I find it hard to believe that every 1 in 10 people are vegan. Where?!

          • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            I would say about 30% of my Indian coworkers over the years have been vegan.

            I think the challenge is that, unlike a lot of Western vegans, they don’t go out of their way to talk about it. My second job, I knew day 1 about the white girl who was vegan. It took me 2 years to learn that 4 of my Indian coworkers were vegan since birth. And I only learned it because they learned I was getting into Indian food so they all started bringing stuff in for me to try. Entire meals. Incredible meals. I miss that job, lol.

            • MenacingPerson@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              My family loves to announce to the world that I don’t drink milk. It’s annoying. Idk they’re probably in shock or something that someone would choose not to abuse cows. (They’re vegetarians, I’m vegan)

              Where do you live? I assume outside India? Hmm

              • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                Well yeah, very outside of India. I live in the US, though I try not to make my identity about that.

                But one thing I’ve loved about working in Boston is how many cultures I’ve been exposed to in my life.

      • portside@monyet.cc
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        1 year ago

        Vegetarian? Yes. Vegan? No.

        I am a vegetarian. I eat dairy. I don’t eat meat and eggs.

          • Misconduct@startrek.website
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            1 year ago

            Except for the part where they’re kept in small cages or “free range” in dirty cramped pens. Luckily it’s easier to get eggs from chickens raised ethically than meats. You just gotta fork over a few extra bucks or get the hookup at a farmer’s market

            • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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              or “free range” in dirty cramped pens.

              We drive 10mph around here because the damn chickens like to “free range” in the road. Those are pretty large pens, the size of a damn town.

              The USDA needs to get their pockets out of big ag’s hands. Free Range should be Free-Fucking-Range. I get to know the chicken I eat got to run wild 16 hours every day, but many people do not.

              • Misconduct@startrek.website
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                1 year ago

                Yeah the fuckery that they pull when they list things as grass fed and free range is vile. Then they make a profit on top of it because they barely change anything but charge premium prices for the fancy label.

                I’m lucky to have a beef farm in my state that ships locally and actually follows the spirit of grass fed up to grass finished in sprawling pastures. They also do individual slaughter. For eggs we’ve got a few locals that bring them to the farmers markets on Sundays. Beef is like a once a week thing for us these days and it’s usually just ground beef. Chicken and fish are our biggest sources of protein now. I don’t really do pork anymore. Can’t find any that’s remotely close to ethically sourced which is abysmal considering how intelligent pigs are. So I just stopped buying it.

                Also, and I’m fully aware this could just be some kinda subconscious bias, but I swear the meat and eggs taste SO much better than the stuff from the grocery. Eggs especially. The yolks are so vibrant and hardly break when being fried. Even the shells seem stronger and less likely to shatter into tiny annoying bits.

                • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 year ago

                  Here’s my reason for trying to eat a little more beef than that. If I’m giving “lives lost” any value, you can’t beat cows for calories per animal death. It beats a lot of plant-based foods. And I do have local beef, though it is not fully sustained like local chicken is… which is why I eat more chicken and seafood as well. Not to mention, even though beef around me can be ecologically sustainable, it will not remain that way if too many people eat it because it needs to be supplemented by import. So some beef = good. More beef = less good.

                  We actually have some ethically sourced local pork, too. I guess it’s nice living in a farming area of my state, despite not living in a farming-state. The butcher’s pork section is always small, but he’s got some.

                  Also, and I’m fully aware this could just be some kinda subconscious bias, but I swear the meat and eggs taste SO much better than the stuff from the grocery

                  Not really a subconscious bias. They are fresher, and preservation techniques often have not been started on them. If you eat an egg that has never been refrigerated, of course it’s fresher. (or the opposite, lol)

                  The seafood my family fishes is right off a boat, generally only a couple hours harvested. After the fishermens’ cut, the best stuff goes to a couple local restaurants and seafood markets, and the rest are frozen and shipped. Yes, you can taste the difference. I never liked scallops until I tasted “the real thing” off a boat.

            • AA5B@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Effing dinosaurs, with 6,000 years of eating cave men, deserve all the incarceration they get. /s

              More seriously, depending on your priorities, factory farmed chicken is less bad for the overall environment than pretty much any beef

              • Misconduct@startrek.website
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                1 year ago

                I never said they were? I’m not even a vegetarian stop being so sensitive. I don’t care for making anything suffer when I can still have eggs without the suffering. It’s that simple. If you’ve based too much of your personality on macho meathead bullshit then do you boo. I’m sure that’s a great replacement for an actual personality.

      • lobut@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        Yeah I have a lot of vegetarian Indian friends, not as many vegan.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            If they can make animal-free cheddar and animal-free yogurt that tastes exactly like the real thing, sign me up. Right now, vegan alternatives are… not good.

            • Twista713@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              I’ve tried a few types of coconut-based yogurts that were tasty. I’m not a fan of almond milk, so didn’t like those varieties as much. On the cheeses though, completely agree! I had one that was tolerable, but definitely falls in the “not good” category.

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Were the coconut-based yogurts sweet? Because I don’t want sweet yogurt. I want yogurt I can put chives in and put on my falafel (for example).

                • Twista713@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  The vanilla flavored one was a bit sweet, but that’s how I generally prefer it. I usually am throwing berries and granola in there too so admittedly can’t give you an unbiased recommendation! I think there are plain flavored ones either almond or coconut milk based, which might be more of what you’re looking for.

            • AA5B@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Yes, this is why I think we take the wrong approach considering things as animal free substitutes. That’s a high bar.

              Meanwhile I’m perfectly happy dipping my veggies in hummus instead of cheese dip. Not as a substitute but as a different choice that is good on its own merit

          • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            I saw a milk that claims to be just that on the shelves. Incredibly expensive and (from what I hear) nowhere near the same taste.

            The problem is that animals and plants do “what they do” with incredible efficiency. If you want to do exactly what some evolved thing does best, you probably cannot come close to matching it with technology. A century of aircraft design and planes are not in the same league as birds regarding flight efficiency.

            If animal-free milk goes the path that animal-free meat is, they may well be reaching the upper bounds of efficiency already, nowhere near close enough to replace natural animal and dairy.

            Which is a bit of a shame (as a meat-eater). I think having outside competition that could truly stand on its own would help reduce the corruption of big ag.

            • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org
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              1 year ago

              If you want to do exactly what some evolved thing does best, you probably cannot come close to matching it with technology.

              Not necessarily true - evolution (and simulating evolution) is great at finding local maxima/minima, but not as great at moving out of those in the case where the local min/max is not the global min/max. So, for example, birds might not be the optimal way to do flight efficiency, but between birds and optimal flight efficiency if there’s a region of worse flight efficiency of any real size (more than you could vault in a couple generations of lucky mutations) then evolution will never find it because the intermediate steps to get there will be selected against too heavily to jump the gap.

              • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                I don’t think I entirely disagree with you. I was generalizing the real phenomenon that we are unable to engineer competing mechanisms to those found in the wild.

                That said, “region of worse efficiency” tends to happen all the time. The accurate argument would be a “region of untenable inefficiency”. A legless bird that evolved the ability to fly its entire life from hatching to death is an unlikely evolution. Not coincidentally, finding ways to keep something up in the air longer-term than birds do is something our engineering is capable of.

          • This is fine🔥🐶☕🔥@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            I don’t know man, I’m from Mumbai. Check on swiggy for restaurants in your area.

            Or you can make it on you own. The recipe is simple, it just takes long time to make because you need to boil milk to make it thicker.

      • sviper@programming.dev
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        1 year ago

        Quite popular, in my city it’s quite hard to find meat in the popular restaurants. And these places are quite old and we’ll know.

        Most foods don’t have any form or trace of meat or eggs, although milk and related items are very widely consumed.

        It’s vegetarian and not vegan.

    • SpookyGenderCommunist [they/them, she/her]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      One of these cultures has normalised vegan and vegetarianism for centuries, the other is trying to wean a meat-obsessed population

      As someone who works in a grocery store, the worst fucking people are the ones who go up to the deli counter and yell at the clerks, demanding the "bloodiest* roast beef they’ve got. That or the spiciest turkey, or whatever.

      Dudes who’s entire sense of self is invested in eating meat. Easily the most annoying kind of guy I encounter in my daily life.

      • Taleya@aussie.zone
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        1 year ago

        That and the ‘for every animal you don’t eat i’m gonna eat THREE!’ Yay well done so macho you get threatened by what another person eats fucking yay for you sir gold star.

      • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Dudes who’s entire sense of self is invested in eating meat

        This might sound silly. But maybe they enjoy the taste of rare roast beef? Before this “make meat seem like it’s not dead animal” trend, the rule used to be anything over medium was overcooked for most meats. For some odd reason (actually, not odd. freaking additives) a lot of roast beef is sold medium-well. Which is tasteless enough to make someone go vegan!

        I don’t understand “yell at the clerks”. I’ve never seen that. But I agree it’s rude. Just **not **because they are buying meat.

      • Wren@sopuli.xyz
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        1 year ago

        I’ve been vegetarian for… more than a decade? I love meat substitutes and generally prefer having the substitute present in meals (either as the main thing, like a burger, or as an inclusion). I do agree that meat substitutes are a fantastic way of reducing meat consumption for meat-eaters, but that doesn’t mean you need to do away with it completely once you’re in ‘full veg’ mode

      • Taleya@aussie.zone
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        1 year ago

        which would be fine if it were just a straight comparison but it starts bleating about chemicals and preservatives and it’s a bit too purity politicking for my tastes.

    • AA5B@lemmy.world
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      Maybe. While I do sometime choose the plant-based meat, thinking of it as a substitute was my initial reluctance to try vegetarian food. Back then, I ridiculed the idea of a “veggie burger”, but really liked grilling a “black bean patty”. Did you realize Mac and Cheese can be vegetarian? “Greek veggie dip” is horrible, but I love hummus. I always loved various potatoes, but it was quite a revelation that you could spice them up and use them as a meal. My latest infatuation is Halloumi or Paneer - don’t ever call a nice grilling cheese a substitute for anything.

      At least for me, it is easier to choose foods for their own value, rather than suffer with a substitute, r a variation “without”. I’m not a vegetarian and have no interest in it, but I will choose what looks good to me at any given time, on its own merits

          • Taleya@aussie.zone
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            7 months ago

            what on earth are you on about.

            One of the earliest known vegans was the Arab poet al-Maʿarri, famous for his poem “I No Longer Steal From Nature”. (c. 973 – c. 1057).

            The first known vegan cookbook was Asenath Nicholson’s Kitchen Philosophy for Vegetarians, published in 1849

            These are documented historical facts. Not “saying something” which ironically appears to be the position you are claiming.

            Did the modern name come about in the 40’s? yes, that’s the etymology of it. But you’re treating that fact like the movement or ideology was formed at the same time, which is tremendously, provably wrong. It’s like claiming gay people are a relatively new invention because the term “homosexual” wasn’t coined until the 1890’s

  • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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    1 year ago

    I mean, the United States has, to be fair, developed a food culture that emphasizes using a lot of meat, especially over the past century or so. It’s not surprising that people from an area that eats so much meat, who go vegan, are going to want to look for ways to still make dishes familiar to them

    • Neato@kbin.social
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      Yep. It’s all about helping people transition. So much of American food culture is centered around burgers, steak, BBQ, etc. It’s really hard to just drop all of that on a dime, even if you want to. These products help people with that mental itch.

      • Tak
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        7 months ago

        deleted by creator

      • pascal@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        It’s not just culture, or itch, or whatever.

        I just love the taste of meat! My body craves for it. But if I can keep that delicious flavour in my plate without killing an animal, that’s great!

    • agitatedpotato@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      If its any indication into other factors, every time I try to make butter chicken it ends up tasting like a British persons home made curry recipe so there’s that. Jokes aside as someone who likes cooking, a lot of traditional recipes, of any culture are simply much more labor intensive than slapping a bean patty on a pan then furnishing it. I’d wager the pace of a lot of western lifestyles, the choice gets weighted quickly.

      • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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        1 year ago

        To be fair, a patty sandwich of any type (be it hamburgers, chicken sandwich, beans, or any kind of imitation meat) is going to be similarly labor intensive and time consuming if one had to make the patty and bread oneself rather than being able to just buy them. I’m sure traditional recipes for most cultures can be made similarly convenient if probably somewhat different from their original form, if demand exists for them to be premade and sold that way. There’s a specialty grocery store very close to my home that specializes in Indian food, tho also has some international foods from other places too, and it’s freezer section has all sorts of Indian dishes done up as tv dinners, or premade frozen samosas of various flavors one just has to fry in a pan for a few minutes, among other things.

        • Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Yup. I love a good microwaved samosa or Chana masala and it’s easier than grilling a frozen chemical burger frankly. I don’t think convenience is a fair argument here. Microwaved Chana is nowhere as good as a freshly made 3hour dish, don’t get me wrong, but there are convenience options that aren’t vegan chicken nuggets.

        • agitatedpotato@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          I mean comparing a frozen vegetable patty to a whole frozen meal is a bit of a stretch in quality and affordability imo. Honestly a lot of it has to do with things like how many pans and utensils you use too. Even if I make a burger from ground beef its still only one pan, two cutting boards (one for meat one for veg) and all the fresh produce just needs to be washed and cut, if you wanna grill the onions, same pan no problem, all you need is a knife and a spatula. When I tried to make butter chicken the tastiest recipe called for two different marinades and a sauce you make in stages. I can go over the video and look at the kitchen hardware necessary but I think it’s easy to imagine its a lot more. I’ve found quite a few Indian recipes in particular are similar that way so it seemed topical.

        • agitatedpotato@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          Depends on if they’re capitol E English or not, then I’d imagine you’d probably have South Asian and Jamaican styles being dominant. I was referring to the englishmans home cooked take on it. If you want the story, years ago I was in Australia and my neighbors there were UK English, I don’t know how to describe it other than it tasted like my early attempts at traditional recipes. If it helps I remember “Man I did all that and mine still just tastes like someone used a strange ramen flavoring packet.” So that’s probably how I’d describe it.

    • ericbomb@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I was taught to cook a ton of things growing up.

      most of those meals involved meat. So took a bit of relearning. Being able to just make an old thing but with fake meat was nice. Then sometimes brain craves something from child hood, so have to find an alternative.

    • Auzy@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      From where I stand internationally though, it seems like a toxic culture too regarding it… Like, apparently, I’m meant to be considered more macho for eating meat somehow… I’m an omnivore, and I’ll eat what I want (the standard of vegetarian food actually seems much higher)

    • lemillionsocks@beehaw.org
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      1 year ago

      I think it is also a reason why a lot of vegetarian food options or certain ingredients like tofu in the US are seen as lesser.

      Like this isnt a meatless example but how tofu is presented in the west is a good showcase of this disconnect. There are people who dont care for tofu because tofu has been presented to them as a meat fill in. Tofurkey instead of turkey, tofu dog instead of hot dog, tofu nuggest, and etc. And tofu is not meat. It’s tofu. So yeah when you replace a Turkey dinner with tofu and are told its just as good or good enough you start associating it as an inferior tasting meat substitute.

      But tofu isnt a meat fill in and in fact many traditional recipes use it in conjunction with meat. Tofu is tofu. It is its own ingredient and recipe,and if you use it as such instead of trying to pretend it’s something else you can do good things.

      Like the same goes for a lot of western vegetarian dishes. Instead of leaning into the flavor profile of the dish or digging up some old traditional meatless recipe(of which many exist even western dishes when you consider lent and meatless fridays were a thing traditionally). And dont get me wrong I understand that someone who went vegetarian or vegan may want to emulate a spicy chicken wing, or a burger, but it feels like a lot of the mainstream western options are all just drop in replacements.

      • Alien Nathan Edward@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Absolutely this. I eat meat, but I really like veg* cooking. I feel like it challenges me in the kitchen and there’s a whole world of veg* dishes especially in mediterranean/middle eastern, south asian and east asian cooking that are just amazing. But the number of wide-eyed vegans who have handed me a lump of some sort of isolated vegetable protein and insisted repeatedly that “it tastes just like meat, you’ll never know” makes me wonder if vegans can actually taste food. I’m sorry, Kaiyleigh, nothing you do to that tofu is gonna make it taste “just like a hot dog”. How about you press it, cube it, roll it in some seasoned corn starch and fry it until it’s a delicious golden brown crunchy little nugget of tofu instead? Let it be what it is rather than trying to force it to be something that it’s not. Either you’re lying to yourself, you’re lying to me or you physically cannot detect flavor compounds with your tongue.

        tldr - fuck a vegan, but I’d love another bowl of that lentil dal

      • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org
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        1 year ago

        But tofu isnt a meat fill in and in fact many traditional recipes use it in conjunction with meat.

        My best experiment with tofu to date involved a marinade and replacing half the chicken I would have otherwise used with it in a dish, and cooking it in the drippings from browning the chicken.

        Tofu is tofu. It is its own ingredient and recipe,and if you use it as such instead of trying to pretend it’s something else you can do good things.

        I’m good with tofu, but my wife HATES the texture of it. Is there some trick to make it less spongy?

        • lemillionsocks@beehaw.org
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          1 year ago

          Thats a tricky one if they dont like the texture its hard to say. You can maybe make a dish with a less firm tofu thats softer if thats something she’s ok? Maybe do a ma po tofu with rice or something vaguely related.

          Have you tried the classic of crispy tofu blocks? Just cube the tofu, toss in cornstarch and fry until the outside is good and crispy. Serve with rice and some kind of sauce or even eat it alone dusted with salt and pepper.

          • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org
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            1 year ago

            I tried something like that in the oven, with a sort of honey garlic glaze. Crisp outside, but the inside still has that spongy texture she doesn’t like. Maybe if I cut it really fine, into like thin pieces where there’s not much bulk to it, so theres a higher crust:sponge ratio? I hadn’t seen a recipe try really thin pieces, and I just assumed there was a reason.

  • qjkxbmwvz@lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 year ago

    I get that it’s a meme, but what’s the problem? I’m vegetarian/flirt with veganism; it’s purely for moral/ethical/environmental reasons.

    Indian food is delicious. An Impossible burger on a pretzel bun dripping with grilled onions, avocado, vegan aioli and mustard with a side of steak fries? That’s also delicious, in my opinion.

    Meat is delicious, and that’s not at all incompatible with my reasoning for being vegetarian.

      • qjkxbmwvz@lemmy.sdf.org
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        1 year ago

        Yeah, it seems that “your meme is kinda gatekeepy” is a pretty good way to start some “spirited discussions.”

    • sourquincelog [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      For real. I was raised on slop, now that I’m a vegetarian, it doesn’t mean I don’t like the foods I grew up eating.

      I guess the point is that we don’t need to rely on expensive substitutes made by the same corps that own slaughterhouses to make tasty, nutritious vegan food

    • BelieveRevolt [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      I’d argue that the fake meat stuff has hurt veganism to at least some extent because it’s marketed so heavily and people think it’s the only way to eat vegan. You can see how prominent the ”all vegan food is processed” and ”it’s too expensive to be vegan” arguments have become, even in this thread.

    • zeekaran@sopuli.xyz
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      1 year ago

      Aioli is naturally vegan. Classically, it’s just garlic paste and oil. Flavoring mayo with garlic is not supposed to be called aioli.

      Try making the proper kind. You’ll be impressed.

    • muddi [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      The problem is that you’re still fixated on the form and experience of meat. A full mindset change is more robust.

      It’s like how fake leather can help replace and reduce real leather usage, but if the trend of desiring leather died out in the first place, the whole problem is dropped altogether

      • Saeculum [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        I don’t want to stop eating meat, I want to stop the exploitation and suffering of animals.

        While I want to stop the exploitation of animals more than I want to eat meat, if there is a path that allows me to do both, I will have a preference for that path.

        The same goes for leather. It’s use isn’t worth what has to be done to create it, but it is a fantastic material with a lot of versatility that’s better than near all alternatives in plenty of applications. Fake leather and synthetic leather are wonderful innovations because we can enjoy the benefits without the negatives, and that’s something to be encouraged rather than avoided.

        • muddi [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          I get it but this is an emotional appeal. I’m just trying to explain the logic of what was being said here

          I like the fake meat stuff too, and often try to make it myself even though I’ve never had meat on purpose in my life and actually throw up if I do accidentally. I just like the kitchen chemistry aspect of it I guess

          I’m not saying we should stop making vegan alternatives to meat. I’m saying people should stop desiring meat or meat alternatives. Because logically that desire of meat is the cause of both meat and meat alternatives. Like how the cure to nicotine addiction isn’t nicotine patches alone

      • GreenTeaRedFlag [any]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        not entirely, as leather is still a wildly useful fabric and material for many uses which synthetic leather can serve(to a greater or lesser extent, granted), but only in specific cases can meat not be replaced/not replaced effectively

      • pascal@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        You think leather is a desire?

        You think people kill animals to obtain leather because it’s cool?

        Leather has many purposes and advantages, it’s economically and practically sane to use it or mimick its features, even with fake leather.

        A desire, he said… Sometimes I don’t get people anymore.

    • CyclohexaneOPM
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      1 year ago

      Nothing against people who prefer meat substitutes. But I do think they should be brave and just abandon meat altogether. If you keep relying on meat substitutes, you haven’t let go of meat entirely, I found it easy to get back to meat eating.

      • Vegasimov@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        You’re chatting out your ass, this is like saying lesbians shouldn’t use dildos in case they go back to fucking men

        Complete ignorance of the thing you’re talking about

        • muddi [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          That is not at all what this is like, completely ignorant metaphor

          Imagine someone addicted to eating their poop. Perhaps they are reforming their ways, and for some time they take half measures like eating smelly chili. Eventually they realize their unhealthy fixation isn’t really overcome by this, so they move onto food that doesn’t resemble poop, like a salad maybe

          • TheCaconym [any]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            No, their metaphor was not ignorant at all.

            Animal products have good taste for most people. The issue with them is not their taste, or the actual act of consumption of them, it’s the fact that their production necessarily involves the torture and killing of sapient beings.

            If you can have “meat” without such effects (so, those fake vegan “meats”), then there is nothing wrong with it at all (I still prefer most of the time my rice, beans, tofu and TSP if only due to the cost but again, nothing wrong with it, quite the contrary).