This is one of those nuanced and grey areas where within the context of a socialist society I don’t think we’d even be having this debate but we aren’t.

Is porn and prostitution inherently exploitative? Yes.

Does it harm those it exploits? Yes.

But I’d argue that’s the industry and not representative of women and queer people who’ve used sex work as a route to emancipation from e.g. an abusive patriarchal relationship.

It’s not a clean or easy debate but to write both sides off as black and white misses that important nuance that sex work HAS been a unfortunate but sometimes necessary route to betterment for those who don’t tend to be asked or taken into consideration when these debates spring up.

I think this conversation needs to take place in the context of the dystopian late stage capitalism we exist within with voices from those who do have experience.

E.g. how is someone selling ass pics on only fans to make rent remotely the same as someone being trapped into prostitution by a pimp? Its not.

We can’t blanket debate sex work as a black and white topic and both sides of the debate want to. It’s either all wholesome emancipation or raw exploitation and that’s just not representative of reality.

Now you won’t find me defending the porn industry etc but you will however find me defending others rights to choose how to use their bodies within capitalism. Some choose ass pics, some choose a 50 hour week in a bar.

The conversation is far too nuanced to be picking a “correct take”.

Instead I’d recommend viewing this as a difficult topic that has no clean answer under capitalism.

Until we create the means where this debate isn’t necessary we shouldn’t demonise or criminalise those who choose to strip, only fans, booby stream etc because then that takes away other working class peoples income and emancipation potentially.

We also shouldn’t forgive or tolerate sexist and exploitative porn and sex industry work and blanket approve of industries that have hoodwinked idiot libs into accepting their normalisation.

I don’t think either of you are wrong in your intentions but I don’t think either of you have dove deeply enough into this topic (if I just go off the crux of the argument and not the shit slinging by the anti communist).

E.g. what corrupts and warps young peoples perception of love and sex? Sure its porn, but its also media, Hollywood, romance novels, movies, TV, school relationships and dynamics, systemic sexism, parental opinions, music videos, social media etc etc. Porn didn’t lead to the above list, sexism and male control and ownership of women did. My point is porn isn’t a cause but symptom of something much deeper.

In the same way that sex work can be an emancipation factor it can also be a death sentence.

It’s shit and nothing will make this a clean debate but we shouldn’t be having this debate on behalf of those we haven’t spoke to or listened to and shockingly there’s huge divide between sex workers and ex sex workers in this issue as well.

It’s not simple but what i will say is that by punishing the performers/only fans sellers etc is not how we accomplish this. We shouldn’t punish the working class who make income from it because we dogmatically decided it’s bad and therefore should be abolished right this second.

If there’s someone to punish it’s the John’s and the people who make money off the backs of women and queer people’s labour in these scenarios but that’s easier said than done.

Conversely by criminalising sex work 9/10 its the sex workers themselves that feel the wrath of our imperial core justice system, not the violent consumers or exploiters. We can’t rely on a corrupt justice system for sex work at least in the west. E.g. if we criminalise sex work and sex workers travel over the border to make money who gets punished? Not the John’s, its the sex worker and who grips them? ICE. Again if sex work is illegal in a major city and the John and sex worker are gripped by the NY police, who’s going to suffer more? The male (and probably white) salary man or the minority sex worker? Do we trust the police of the imperial core to implement any of this reasonably? Lmao no course we don’t/shouldn’t.

In the end what benefits and protects the workers is regulation and protections for the workers. That’s what we should be pushing for, not an answer to a debate without one, but for a realistic solution that protects those we care about, the workers and that means protecting their livelihoods as well as their physical health.

White Knighting against sex work won’t do anyone any favors is my end point I guess.

NB - I’m not implying anyone is actively trying to harm workers in this debate but by choosing black and white solutions to a grey issue, it will happen because it already has.

They just respond with a moral tone about “smashing expectations and traditions of women.” What could be better at smashing expectations of women than abolishing an industry based on sexual commodification? Their answer is basically a moral argument trying their best to push the idea that giving women the “freedom” to be merely objects for sex is “liberation” from the patriarchy.

Your take is correct and good. The fact that this weasel pinned you as a communist only speaks to that lol. An attempt to twist prostitution into a women’s lib thing immediately juxtaposed with an unhinged anti-communist tirade is indicative of the responder being one of the worst types of sexpat-liberals. Wouldn’t doubt that they’ve gleefully engaged in the coercion themselves and feel the incessant need to justify their own worthless existence with reminders that “sex work is real work!” and “paying for sex is actually empowering women”.

Banned under socialism (it would barely exist anyway), under capitalism, it is legalized in order to protect the workers.

Great job, comrade! Liberals are always all in for porn and prostitution, it’s disgusting… They always bring up that those women are “free” to sell their body or not, reducing the issue to a simple “it’s not good, but it’s better than x”. Upon doing this, they ignore every other problem brought over by prostitution and porn, including addiction, human trafficking, etc.

I feel like… In a proper socialist society that had easy access to work and everyone was provided for, prostitution wouldn’t exist. Since it’s only real reason to exist is for monetary need and if that was taken care of no one would need to sell themselves.

Porn? Idk. It’s like, people wouldn’t need to make porn for income or anything but… people like making/drawing porn. Porn has happened throughout all of human history at some level. It’s gonna happen. Some people also make videos of themselves for not monetary purposes. I feel like there wouldn’t be an industry for it but there would be porn of some form or another made by people freely of their own desire. So I feel outlawing it outright would not really be necessary?

Any form of either of these that is done out of necessity for income is in and of itself exploitation. In fact I don’t think there’s any form of prostitution that isn’t exploitive. Porn, if done/made from ones own, unincentivized, free will then I guess it could be seen as liberating. Freedom of expression or whatever.

This is all from a hypothetical situation from the standpoint of a true socialist society. As far as from a capitalist standpoint idk. Maybe if that last point of the porn being unincentivized and just cause someone wanted to…

A yes, the “anti-capitalists” who want to deregulate an industry that commodifies people’s bodies. It is extremely patriarchal to traumatize (mostly) women for the pleasure of (mostly) men. If you like podcasts there’s a great show called ‘The Probably Cancelled Podcast’ about real proletarian feminism and I cannot recommend it enough.

I think the person who responded to you is very dumb. It’s this standard liberal Either - Or mentality on full display. I’m sure there really are people who have found porn to be very liberating (economically, socially, spiritually), but like with anything, focusing on individual stories doesn’t paint the full scope. Most sex workers in the world are absolutely exploited and forced into those positions, as are most workers of the world with any field of labor.

That person accuses you of “twisting liberty”, but what liberty? Liberty for who? Liberty for a extremely small minority of sex workers & porn consumers in the West to enjoy their glorious freedom of expression while the rest have to toil? Liberty for pimps to make money? That’s not the kind of liberty any society should really be interested in replicating.

I had free access to the internet as a kid and I’d say I’m irrevocably messed up from it. I wouldn’t want to be a lame parent and make my kid exclusively use this computer till they’re 21 'cause I think they’d resent me for that but yeesh. The internet, it’s not good folks.

As for sex work, I dunno really. I think if money is involved then inherently I don’t see how you can establish consent, but pro-sex work people would say that no work under capitalism is consensual and there are people who do find it liberating, at least as an alternative to other jobs available. But while I agree that no work is consensual I find too much of the conversation seems to revolve around affluent men and women who can afford to just stop anytime they want and not the people who are doing it out of desperation, that’s when I get the vibe that the whole “freeing and liberating” thing feels like white-washing how fucking horrible things are for poor people. Like I can imagine the liberal ghouls going around saying just how free and liberated people selling themselves after the fall of the USSR were. Like, people love to bring up the idea of “free love” that people would still engage in sex with strangers even under communism but that doesn’t really seem germane to the topic of it happening here and now under capitalism. I don’t think it’s morally wrong though, I don’t know if that’s the sentiment here or not, I don’t rightly care if people would have sex with strangers if they felt like it, but I think it’s one more of many things that capitalism causes to be a problem or makes worse and while I wouldn’t begrudge any individual who does what they can to get financial security I do at a base level feel uneasy about people trying to promote it as this great liberating thing.

They definitely aren’t good. They are symptoms of larger issues. I’m sure that nearly everyone involved in sexwork (outside of business owners) would prefer to be doing something else but simply don’t have the means to do so.

However I’d argue against criminalizing the practice as it is a response to lack of other opportunities, the best way to attack it then is to go at the material base that gives rise to it, poverty.

It’s hard to talk about porn and prostitution in blanket terms because it differs wildly between cultres, formats, power dynamic etc.

Often when you see the subject discussed online two sides are framing their ideas off very different concepts or examples, and applying each others’ statements to their own model and getting frustrated. My advice would be to always ask for examples and give examples to illustrate points.

I would add though that I’m not a fan of the argument against commodification of the body. We all commodify our bodies and minds to different extents when we sell our labour. The nuance is in the terms of that exchange. Same with commodification of sex and intimacy. Therapists and entertainers aren’t villified for what they do; sex should not hold some sacrosanct status in the spectrum of human experience.

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Either someone who has a lot to lose from the end of capitalism and is trying to gaslight you (most likely) or someone in denial about the current state of the world. That’s how I see all anti-communists nowadays.

About the porn thing idk, libertarian or liberal I guess, which ties into the previous thing

“Projecting liberty as capitalism”

Wrong… capitalism is liberalism as an economy… who the hell do you think gave birth to it? Free enterprise, private property(slaves, mop), individualism. These are cornerstones of capitalism. John Locke owned great shares in the slave trade and America built its foundations upon his philosophy… so no… “liberty” as a philosophy and ideology is all based on racist white dudes that wanted to keep making money off of owning people.

You made good points and then they find out you’re a socialist and all of a sudden, your concrete points dont mean anything?

And no alternative? What a weird way of telling you to not be on the side of the sexually exploited.