vegetarians are people that are aware of the circumstances of animal agriculture, and all the pain and suffering that it imposes on trillions of animals around the world year after year, and yet they still choose to contribute to animal suffering and their inevitable subsequent death, while an average omnivore is unaware of the aforementioned circumstances
This is ridiculous. Transitioning to a plant-based diet is not an easy thing to do for many people. Those that are vegetarian have been pivotal in raising awareness about animal sufferring and providing more eating options everywhere in society. It provides a way for people to slowly but surely move towards the ideal vegan diet without putting their health at risk.
It provides a way for people to slowly but surely move towards the ideal vegan diet without putting their health at risk.
The fact that vegeterianism is a popular transitioning point for many to becoming vegan doesn’t change what I wrote in the previous comment. I see human and animal life having the same value, and I call out vegetarians out for that, as their diet contributes to animal suffering and murder while they are fully aware of it, simple as that.
I’m not suggesting that anything you said in that comment was wrong. I’m challenging whether it is a supporting argument for your preposterous claim that vegetarians are worse than omnis
both vegetarians and omnis support animal abuse, vegetarians are very likely more aware of it more often, given that they took the effort to exclude meat from their diet, and in my opinion for this reason they are worse than omnivores
there’s no objectively quantifiable metric to measure cruelty, and so i can’t scientifically prove that vegetarians are worse, but their awareness of the animal suffering in my opinion makes them worse
if you do not draw this connection, i just don’t know how else to try to prove my point to you
that perfectly conveys the sense that electric cars are only marginally better than cars with internal combustion engines
Or is it all wrong even if only humane farms existed?
the reality is that this kind of vegetarians represent a very tiny fraction of all vegetarians, with most of cheese and dairy production resulting in immense harm and death to the animals that produce it
however, even if all farms were “humane”, as you describe it, which I presume means they don’t forcible impregnate them, don’t kill them as soon as they become unprofitable etc, i would still think that vegetarianism is morally unjustified
the reason being that (in case of eggs) chickens were selectively bred to produce huge numbers of eggs, which leads to various diseases and complications in their bodies and eating eggs is still murder in any case, and (in case of cheese) taking milk from mammals means taking the milk that would otherwise be intended for their baby, which also makes is unjustifiable
and this is all without even factoring in the environmental impact of animal agriculture done in any form…
But some people need a car for their job, and could not do without it. Those that have electric cars are demonstrating that they care about the enivronment, which raises awareness, and allows us to move towards a society free of fossil fuels. Yes, they are bad, but you’ll get nowhere by saying that people who sympathise with your cause and listen to and agree with you are “worse than” the people who simply ignore what you have to say.
just in case, all my issues with people owning cars pertain to people owning and driving a car in a city, not people driving a car out in the country on weekends, or maybe driving hundreds of kilometers in another city while also transporting hundreds of kilograms of cargo
But some people need a car for their job, and could not do without it.
I’m not calling out truck drivers or ambulance drivers, I’m calling out people who drive like 5 kilometers in their city to work/school and back in a car, and by doing so endangering the lives of people around them, contributing to air and noise pollution, traffic probles etc, instead of using public transport or biking there.
Those that have electric cars are demonstrating that they care about the environment
Manufacturing an electric car and all of its components like batteries still contributes greatly to pollution and climate change, people who buy electric cars are likely aware of this if they choose to make such a decision, and yet still choose to buy electric cars and I’m calling them out for this, same thing as vegetarians.
you’ll get nowhere by saying that people who sympathise with your cause and listen to and agree with you are “worse than” the people who simply ignore what you have to say
Well, look at all the super-bike-friendly cities in the world. They didn’t get there by politely asking cars owners to please please please drive a little below 100 km/h and slapping them on the wrist when they hit and kill a cyclist or a pedestrian. They got there by hindering owning and driving a car as much as possible, making it a pain in the ass to do so, taxing car sales, and introducing aggressive pro-bike laws, and rolling out bike infrastructure everywhere, taking space away from the cars.
And then look at the cities where the government listened to people driving cars. Hint: they are shit and there’s zero progress.
And I take the exact same stance with veganism, I don’t think we just have yet arrived at a point where the exact same thing could happen as it did with bicycles.
They got there by hindering owning and driving a car as much as possible, making it a pain in the ass to do so, taxing car sales, and introducing aggressive pro bike laws, and rolling out bike infrastructure everywhere, taking space away from cars.
Firstly, I think the analogy is very flawed as I don’t believe that an electric car is a step towards being a bicycle rider, while being vegetarian is certainly progress towards being vegan.
Furthermore, I think there’s a huge chicken-and-egg problem with this. There will not be enough people biking without pro-bike legislation, but there will be no pro-bike legislation without sufficient numbers of bicycle riders. These things rarely happen quickly, but they aren’t happening as quickly as they should. Criticising people who take steps in the right direction is not only unhelpful but categorically incorrect, as those people are a necessary part of the movement as a whole.
ok, at this point this debate doesn’t make much sense, as neither of us have evidence to support that bullying vegetarians either helps them convert to veganism or deters them from doing so (at least I don’t have it), which is crucial in my view to determine whether calling out vegetarians is a good idea or not
i’m actually very curious about it, as i always kind of took it for granted that bullying vegetarians helps them convert to a vegan diet, but now I’m not exactly sure, i’m going to conduct a little collection of anecdotes from lemmy users to try and determine that
What is it about eating eggs that makes it murder?
Is it that there is a live embryo inside the egg that makes it murder?
Not all eggs have an actual baby chick inside them so I don’t think that would be considered murder.
Note: Yes I know that the conditions that egg laying chickens are horrible. My question was not about that.
are you genuinely asking about my position or you are just saying that you think that it’s incorrect? (this is a genuine question)
deleted by creator
vegetarians are people that are aware of the circumstances of animal agriculture, and all the pain and suffering that it imposes on trillions of animals around the world year after year, and yet they still choose to contribute to animal suffering and their inevitable subsequent death, while an average omnivore is unaware of the aforementioned circumstances
This is ridiculous. Transitioning to a plant-based diet is not an easy thing to do for many people. Those that are vegetarian have been pivotal in raising awareness about animal sufferring and providing more eating options everywhere in society. It provides a way for people to slowly but surely move towards the ideal vegan diet without putting their health at risk.
The fact that vegeterianism is a popular transitioning point for many to becoming vegan doesn’t change what I wrote in the previous comment. I see human and animal life having the same value, and I call out vegetarians out for that, as their diet contributes to animal suffering and murder while they are fully aware of it, simple as that.
I’m not suggesting that anything you said in that comment was wrong. I’m challenging whether it is a supporting argument for your preposterous claim that vegetarians are worse than omnis
both vegetarians and omnis support animal abuse, vegetarians are very likely more aware of it more often, given that they took the effort to exclude meat from their diet, and in my opinion for this reason they are worse than omnivores
there’s no objectively quantifiable metric to measure cruelty, and so i can’t scientifically prove that vegetarians are worse, but their awareness of the animal suffering in my opinion makes them worse
if you do not draw this connection, i just don’t know how else to try to prove my point to you
deleted by creator
ok, even if they’re not aware of it, which i think they are, vegans trolling them is in my opining going to help them transition to a vegan diet
deleted by creator
oh yeah, this is a really cool analogy actually
regular car owners=omniselectric car owners=vegetariansbike riders/PEV owners=egansthat perfectly conveys the sense that electric cars are only marginally better than cars with internal combustion engines
the reality is that this kind of vegetarians represent a very tiny fraction of all vegetarians, with most of cheese and dairy production resulting in immense harm and death to the animals that produce it
however, even if all farms were “humane”, as you describe it, which I presume means they don’t forcible impregnate them, don’t kill them as soon as they become unprofitable etc, i would still think that vegetarianism is morally unjustified
the reason being that (in case of eggs) chickens were selectively bred to produce huge numbers of eggs, which leads to various diseases and complications in their bodies and eating eggs is still murder in any case, and (in case of cheese) taking milk from mammals means taking the milk that would otherwise be intended for their baby, which also makes is unjustifiable
and this is all without even factoring in the environmental impact of animal agriculture done in any form…
But some people need a car for their job, and could not do without it. Those that have electric cars are demonstrating that they care about the enivronment, which raises awareness, and allows us to move towards a society free of fossil fuels. Yes, they are bad, but you’ll get nowhere by saying that people who sympathise with your cause and listen to and agree with you are “worse than” the people who simply ignore what you have to say.
just in case, all my issues with people owning cars pertain to people owning and driving a car in a city, not people driving a car out in the country on weekends, or maybe driving hundreds of kilometers in another city while also transporting hundreds of kilograms of cargo
I’m not calling out truck drivers or ambulance drivers, I’m calling out people who drive like 5 kilometers in their city to work/school and back in a car, and by doing so endangering the lives of people around them, contributing to air and noise pollution, traffic probles etc, instead of using public transport or biking there.
Manufacturing an electric car and all of its components like batteries still contributes greatly to pollution and climate change, people who buy electric cars are likely aware of this if they choose to make such a decision, and yet still choose to buy electric cars and I’m calling them out for this, same thing as vegetarians.
Well, look at all the super-bike-friendly cities in the world. They didn’t get there by politely asking cars owners to please please please drive a little below 100 km/h and slapping them on the wrist when they hit and kill a cyclist or a pedestrian. They got there by hindering owning and driving a car as much as possible, making it a pain in the ass to do so, taxing car sales, and introducing aggressive pro-bike laws, and rolling out bike infrastructure everywhere, taking space away from the cars.
And then look at the cities where the government listened to people driving cars. Hint: they are shit and there’s zero progress.
And I take the exact same stance with veganism, I don’t think we just have yet arrived at a point where the exact same thing could happen as it did with bicycles.
Firstly, I think the analogy is very flawed as I don’t believe that an electric car is a step towards being a bicycle rider, while being vegetarian is certainly progress towards being vegan.
Furthermore, I think there’s a huge chicken-and-egg problem with this. There will not be enough people biking without pro-bike legislation, but there will be no pro-bike legislation without sufficient numbers of bicycle riders. These things rarely happen quickly, but they aren’t happening as quickly as they should. Criticising people who take steps in the right direction is not only unhelpful but categorically incorrect, as those people are a necessary part of the movement as a whole.
ok, at this point this debate doesn’t make much sense, as neither of us have evidence to support that bullying vegetarians either helps them convert to veganism or deters them from doing so (at least I don’t have it), which is crucial in my view to determine whether calling out vegetarians is a good idea or not
i’m actually very curious about it, as i always kind of took it for granted that bullying vegetarians helps them convert to a vegan diet, but now I’m not exactly sure, i’m going to conduct a little collection of anecdotes from lemmy users to try and determine that
What is it about eating eggs that makes it murder? Is it that there is a live embryo inside the egg that makes it murder? Not all eggs have an actual baby chick inside them so I don’t think that would be considered murder.
Note: Yes I know that the conditions that egg laying chickens are horrible. My question was not about that.
All the male chicks which obviously cannot lay eggs are macerated shortly after birth.
Earthling Ed put out a video about this very topic not too long ago and it provides good answers to your questions.