Thanks for the suggestion, that’s basically what I’ve been doing, but it seems like the only reason ppl are bringing up are around categorizing the incidents differently, e.g. renaming it to Mass_killings_under_totalitarian_regimes. But I don’t see anything about “propaganda” or inaccuracies.
There’s a main heading that says the claims are a synthesis of unverified/unverifiable stories.
Just for discussion’s sake in the case of the Chinese famine it strategically manages to ignore the fact that the US embargoed grain shipments to China during this time. Somewhat famously Canada broke ranks and did sell grain to China during the famine.
I think you have to have shallow historical knowledge or contextual knowledge to take any of the articles on the page seriously.
It’s … A long way from scholarly. In this case better uniformed than misinformed. A good candidate for deletion.
I see, and I’m not claiming to have any knowledge, but rather asking for some.
I would advocate to add this information into the article rather than delete it.
If we waited for the CCP to “verify” the info on tiananmen square, we would have no info at all. So it’s expected to have some unverified information in controversial topics.
The CPC put out several documents about the protests at and around the square. They even published parliament papers since there was a debriefing about it right after they cleared the square: http://www.gov.cn/zwgk/2011-11/09/content_1989024.htm (I always forget which document it is exactly though, I would think 5 or 6 since they’re dated by day).
What they pushed against was the obvious lies like the british diplomat in HK who said the protestors were funnelled and mowed down by machine guns – he is the only person in the world making that claim (no protestors, no journalists, nobody else validates his diplomatic cable made from hk about “what he heard”). That’s what they censored, and it got turned into “nothing happened at tiananmen” by our media.
See, the fact that you believe there was a massacre in Tiananmen Square tells me you haven’t done even the most basic research.
There was no massacre in Tiananmen Square on or about June 4, 1989.
Note, I didn’t say there was no massacre on or about June 4, 1989. I said there was no massacre in Tiananmen Square. This may sound like I’m splitting hairs, but the distinction is important because it points out something important: the western press, fostered by western government, flatly lied to you both for reasons of sloth, and for darker propaganda purposes.
So why did they lie?
Well, you see, aside from journalistic laziness (the source of a whole lot of world misinformation), there’s also the issue that kiddies cosplaying democratic reformists is far more photogenic than worker uprisings that were scattered all over the country. (And it had the added benefit of dehumanizing the leadership of the country. I’ll get more into that later.)
Kiddies cosplaying revolutionary—D’AW! they made a copy of Lady Liberty!—looks good on the cameras. And having them supposedly ruthlessly slaughtered is great TV. It didn’t happen, but that’s a small price to pay for great ratings! Hey, we’ll even put up pictures and video that suggest tanks just drove over a guy who stood in front of them. We’ll suppress the full footage (now trivial to find courtesy of the Internet) showing that he wasn’t. (Yes, I’m saying Tank Man didn’t happen the way you remember it.)
No, the real massacre was a few km away from Tiananmen Square. It was a full-on clash between fed-up workers and, in a series of escalations, even thePLA. (You’re not in China, and again you’ve not done even the most elementary research, so you don’t know how shocking it is that those last three initials are involved!) So why wasn’t this reported upon at the time? Well, journalistic sloth is a huge factor (who wants to travel several km in a dangerous battle zone when you can cower in a hotel and make shit up?), but a darker reason is that the powers that be in the west didn’t want stories of workers’ revolts where the workers revolting are the hero … because the conditions they were revolting against are not that far from the conditions western workers of the time were contending with. No, let the photogenic kiddy cosplayers be the lede while quietly burying the nation-wide worker protests that culminated in that horrific massacre in which, finally, of all institutions, the bloody PLA was brought in to quell it.
Now on to the dehumanization angle. Consider this: the protesters in Tiananmen were from the top universities in China. They were the bloody scions of the nation’s top leadership. They were the children of the very people who supposedly ordered their massacre! Do you genuinely believe that the Chinese are so inhuman that they’ll order their own God-damned children to be bloodily put down? Really!? Take a few moments and really think that through. Does this make even a lick of sense to you?
Again, the press reports, beyond journalistic sloth and incompetence, are the result of a calculated narrative in which the Chinese leadership are painted to be inhuman. This is just raw propaganda and you’re falling for it hook, line, and sinker. (It’s not entirely your fault, of course. You’ve been drowning in corporate and government propaganda narratives from birth, as have the people in China, in Germany, in Russia, in Zimbabwe … wherever. You do bear some culpability, however, for not even thinking through how likely it is that Party leadership would order the mass execution of their own children.)
So what does it matter? Well, part of the problem is that when you spout things that people know are false, it puts anything else you say under suspicion that they don’t know about. And it means, too, that attempts to address the very real problems the Chinese government has (every government has them) will fall on deaf ears because they’ll assume what you’re saying is bullshit motivated by ignorance and/or malice.
Let me see if I can come up with a parallel to show you what I mean. What would you think of a Chinese person coming up to you and saying that Washington should be ashamed of their conduct in conducting the Fort Pillow Massacre and that the United States of America should pay reparations to the former Confederacy for their crime?
That’s about how off-target most western critiques of China are.
Why is it always the same picture of bikes, and people lying on the ground clearly lifting their heads? Not exactly proof of a massacre. Meanwhile you can find pictures of the burned bodies of PLA soldiers, who were sent in unarmed and killed by the “peaceful protestors”.
You must be in one of those chinese bullshit farms to not spot the tank
And the pictures you linked are just of charred remains, there is no way to tell if they’re soldiers form the pic. and even if they are, theres only three ppl in those pics.
There’s a main heading that says the claims are a synthesis of unverified/unverifiable stories.
Really? Ctrl+F “unver” yielded nothing. Yet i saw some compelling arguments for deleting/renaming that page, but your denialism about the crimes of marxist-leninists against the people does not help your case for communism. Communism is power to the people, not power to psychopaths. The State is a bourgeois construct to protect the ruling class: the “worker State” is a myth.
Thanks for the suggestion, that’s basically what I’ve been doing, but it seems like the only reason ppl are bringing up are around categorizing the incidents differently, e.g. renaming it to Mass_killings_under_totalitarian_regimes. But I don’t see anything about “propaganda” or inaccuracies.
There’s a main heading that says the claims are a synthesis of unverified/unverifiable stories.
Just for discussion’s sake in the case of the Chinese famine it strategically manages to ignore the fact that the US embargoed grain shipments to China during this time. Somewhat famously Canada broke ranks and did sell grain to China during the famine.
I think you have to have shallow historical knowledge or contextual knowledge to take any of the articles on the page seriously.
It’s … A long way from scholarly. In this case better uniformed than misinformed. A good candidate for deletion.
I see, and I’m not claiming to have any knowledge, but rather asking for some.
I would advocate to add this information into the article rather than delete it.
If we waited for the CCP to “verify” the info on tiananmen square, we would have no info at all. So it’s expected to have some unverified information in controversial topics.
The CPC put out several documents about the protests at and around the square. They even published parliament papers since there was a debriefing about it right after they cleared the square: http://www.gov.cn/zwgk/2011-11/09/content_1989024.htm (I always forget which document it is exactly though, I would think 5 or 6 since they’re dated by day).
What they pushed against was the obvious lies like the british diplomat in HK who said the protestors were funnelled and mowed down by machine guns – he is the only person in the world making that claim (no protestors, no journalists, nobody else validates his diplomatic cable made from hk about “what he heard”). That’s what they censored, and it got turned into “nothing happened at tiananmen” by our media.
See, the fact that you believe there was a massacre in Tiananmen Square tells me you haven’t done even the most basic research.
There was no massacre in Tiananmen Square on or about June 4, 1989.
Note, I didn’t say there was no massacre on or about June 4, 1989. I said there was no massacre in Tiananmen Square. This may sound like I’m splitting hairs, but the distinction is important because it points out something important: the western press, fostered by western government, flatly lied to you both for reasons of sloth, and for darker propaganda purposes.
So why did they lie?
Well, you see, aside from journalistic laziness (the source of a whole lot of world misinformation), there’s also the issue that kiddies cosplaying democratic reformists is far more photogenic than worker uprisings that were scattered all over the country. (And it had the added benefit of dehumanizing the leadership of the country. I’ll get more into that later.)
Kiddies cosplaying revolutionary—D’AW! they made a copy of Lady Liberty!—looks good on the cameras. And having them supposedly ruthlessly slaughtered is great TV. It didn’t happen, but that’s a small price to pay for great ratings! Hey, we’ll even put up pictures and video that suggest tanks just drove over a guy who stood in front of them. We’ll suppress the full footage (now trivial to find courtesy of the Internet) showing that he wasn’t. (Yes, I’m saying Tank Man didn’t happen the way you remember it.)
No, the real massacre was a few km away from Tiananmen Square. It was a full-on clash between fed-up workers and, in a series of escalations, even the PLA. (You’re not in China, and again you’ve not done even the most elementary research, so you don’t know how shocking it is that those last three initials are involved!) So why wasn’t this reported upon at the time? Well, journalistic sloth is a huge factor (who wants to travel several km in a dangerous battle zone when you can cower in a hotel and make shit up?), but a darker reason is that the powers that be in the west didn’t want stories of workers’ revolts where the workers revolting are the hero … because the conditions they were revolting against are not that far from the conditions western workers of the time were contending with. No, let the photogenic kiddy cosplayers be the lede while quietly burying the nation-wide worker protests that culminated in that horrific massacre in which, finally, of all institutions, the bloody PLA was brought in to quell it.
Now on to the dehumanization angle. Consider this: the protesters in Tiananmen were from the top universities in China. They were the bloody scions of the nation’s top leadership. They were the children of the very people who supposedly ordered their massacre! Do you genuinely believe that the Chinese are so inhuman that they’ll order their own God-damned children to be bloodily put down? Really!? Take a few moments and really think that through. Does this make even a lick of sense to you?
Again, the press reports, beyond journalistic sloth and incompetence, are the result of a calculated narrative in which the Chinese leadership are painted to be inhuman. This is just raw propaganda and you’re falling for it hook, line, and sinker. (It’s not entirely your fault, of course. You’ve been drowning in corporate and government propaganda narratives from birth, as have the people in China, in Germany, in Russia, in Zimbabwe … wherever. You do bear some culpability, however, for not even thinking through how likely it is that Party leadership would order the mass execution of their own children.)
So what does it matter? Well, part of the problem is that when you spout things that people know are false, it puts anything else you say under suspicion that they don’t know about. And it means, too, that attempts to address the very real problems the Chinese government has (every government has them) will fall on deaf ears because they’ll assume what you’re saying is bullshit motivated by ignorance and/or malice.
Let me see if I can come up with a parallel to show you what I mean. What would you think of a Chinese person coming up to you and saying that Washington should be ashamed of their conduct in conducting the Fort Pillow Massacre and that the United States of America should pay reparations to the former Confederacy for their crime?
That’s about how off-target most western critiques of China are.
https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/gw2y6b/the_real_picture_of_tiananmen_square_massacre/
I guess all of those people are just tired
No they’re not. They’re dead.
Now learn to read.
Go back to what I wrote in my long diatribe and see if you can spot your error.
(Hint: I repeated a phrase with some key differences that I called out.)
Engage your critical facilities this time.
Why is it always the same picture of bikes, and people lying on the ground clearly lifting their heads? Not exactly proof of a massacre. Meanwhile you can find pictures of the burned bodies of PLA soldiers, who were sent in unarmed and killed by the “peaceful protestors”.
You can see the pictures of dead soldiers here.
Wow you’re really good to Alex-Jones-crisis-actors the victims of this tragedy? Apparently driving a tank counts as unarmed now.
Please point out the tank in the picture you linked. And tell me how you explain the pictures which i linked.
You must be in one of those chinese bullshit farms to not spot the tank
And the pictures you linked are just of charred remains, there is no way to tell if they’re soldiers form the pic. and even if they are, theres only three ppl in those pics.
Really? Ctrl+F “unver” yielded nothing. Yet i saw some compelling arguments for deleting/renaming that page, but your denialism about the crimes of marxist-leninists against the people does not help your case for communism. Communism is power to the people, not power to psychopaths. The State is a bourgeois construct to protect the ruling class: the “worker State” is a myth.
… You can’t see the icons?
If you can point me to the denialism in my statement I’ll address it.