Capitalists have plenty of motives for committing atrocities: making space for more settlers, stealing resources, enforcing homogeneity, eliminating potential competitors, discouraging rebellions; in short, preserving their class at our cost.
If so, what kind of apology we’re talking about? hit me with specifics
An official apology coupled with substantial reparations for the families affected by the atrocities would be a good start. The families should preferably be the ones choosing the reparations.
Or you just wanna smear negativity about the country you don’t like?
I appreciate somebody raising awareness about these largely forgotten atrocities.
Has your country ever made anything that others could call genocide?
What have you done so your officials “apologize” for that?
There’s very little that we, as individuals, can do to get the attention of the ruling class. Informing other lower‐class people about these events is a more logical course of action.
Thank you, this message worth more than the whole tread combined.
Even though I have my questions about mechanics of such reparations, I do appreciate the care for writing the reply out.
Capitalists have plenty of motives for committing atrocities
My main problem with far left as a opposition to capitalism is general lack of concrete ways to achieve claimed moral goals.
Yes, everyone can find flaws in a working system, but can you make your system work in the first place? Everyone can say that the land will belong to the farmer, but can you really give it away and remain in power? No gulags, remember.
Let me state here that I’ve seen real life communism with my own eyes. A loved one of mine died because a Soviet style medical committee didn’t want to contradict their alumni, so I couldn’t get an investigation started.
The collective won over an individual, the peace in group has been sustained, my loved one slowly (over 3yrs) faded away while the committee’d been rescheduling their endless pointless meetings. This is missdocumented mass murder you probably don’t hear a lot about: on your own people for the sake of keeping “harmony”. And that’s the everyday reality where too much power has been put in one place.
Yeah, mate, go on vilifying me while openly promoting violation of human rights. When millions of your own people tortured, worked to death, and sent to frontlines to die in a useless cause, don’t forget to blame it on me, random stranger on the internet expressing his concerns.
Transporting people there is expensive.
Heard of trains, haven’t you? Also why waste space leaving trains empty on the way back from delivering raw materials, let’s put all the political opposition there.
People rely on remnants of Soviet healthcare to survive, because they wouldn’t be able to afford overpriced privatized healthcare
You should also remember that the people cannot do anything if stuff goes wrong. A nurse puts a bubble into Babushka’s vein, Babushka dies, the clinic protects the nurse, family receives nothing, not even investigation. Drunk therapist kills a patient? No one bats an eye. Intern mixes viles leading to life alterating injuries, it’s fine. I can go on and on how corrupt and dangerous those medical facilities in fact are but the people got no choice either way. Don’t forget who sends the Babushkas pension checks so they cannot afford any second opinion, you’d like them to have all the power, don’t you?
And why are you not crying the inefficiency of the capitalist system, which puts profits above lives of diabetics, for example?
I do, I do open issues and I do work with poor people to improve their quality of life. You apparently just choose to ignore those initiatives.
If revolutionary masses had no ways of achieving their goals, you wouldn’t be seething about their supposed excesses on the internet.
This is flawed argument, there’s no positive relation between Communists impact in achieving their goals and me being skeptical about a particular ideology. If relation exists at all, it’s negative, i.e I actually would like social aspect of communism to succeed, but I ask of Communists to illustrate outstanding quality in their work and willingness to solve problems without going full Stalin. I seek proofs of that work and I will call out the mistakes.
You’ve at most seen socialism
*sigh* how stale this argument is, Soviet Union has funneling it from its origin and yet it’s still here. How many years, Carl, how many millions of lives you’d like to take before you’ll see the communism you seek?
P.S. am not British, have no affiliation to UK, I do not benefit from UK nor intend to in the future, so don’t waste your breath trying to accuse me in bootlicking. Believe it or not, I support calm listing the past injustices (thanks to @AnarchoBolshevik@lemmygrad.ml for sharing the links) so they may be payed back in the future, but this meme ain’t it, chief
Not to mention that some camps could had been reached only by water paths, like rivers or seas, which by specific geographic position are frozen for the most of an year.
sigh how stale this argument is, Soviet Union has funneling it from its origin and yet it’s still here. How many years, Carl, how many millions of lives you’d like to take before you’ll see the communism you seek?
Let’s see how you talk when those millions start with your sisters, brothers, parents, grandparents, siblings of all age, school friends, your favourite teachers, your spouse and your own children dying. Some from poor diet, some commit suicide, some by persecution, some just passing out from carriage clogged outgas on the way to a work camp. While some far away elites enjoy power and grand celebration, chosen not by merit, not by knowledge but by luck and bootlicking.
Yes, exactly how it is now but with different flag.
Do your loved ones would like to die as much as you do?
Do you want to attend a funeral of your 5y old daughter?
Can you live last 20 years of your life knowing you inadvertently destroyed lives of all who was true to you?
Yes, you believed and maybe still believe in this but does it matter if there’s not a single soul you care for?
Do you want to attend a funeral of your 5y old daughter?
too far, way too far to bring that into this. but it would be my fault if My make-believe daughter died of starvation in a world with cultivated and collectivized agriculture. IDK what deaths you are putting these under.
Let’s see how you talk when those millions start with your sisters, brothers, parents, grandparents, siblings of all age, school friends, your favourite teachers, your spouse and your own children dying.
all of those people are liberals or make believe. Not really getting at much here. Also, I live in a country occupied by America. The people of Hawaii are treated like shit, and the high and mighty whites have done nothing but band-aid measures to soothe their own conscience. They need some Re-education, and some need to work outside in the world for a change. I did, and it made me grow as a person.
While some far away elites enjoy power and grand celebration, chosen not by merit, not by knowledge but by luck and bootlicking.
comrade, why, in your pursuit to attack Communism, have only made examples of capitalism. You project far too hard comrade.
Do your loved ones would like to die as much as you do?
one of my loved ones willingly did work for the imperialist war machine in Iraq for years, and has never shown regret. He left me to help drone strike children, so why can I not leave them to build a world in which that never happens? They need re-education.
Can you live last 20 years of your life knowing you inadvertently destroyed lives of all who was true to you?
I am more concerned with the 8 billion other people. If I got everyone I loved killed and improved the quality of life for the 3rd world, and freed the country that is occupied, I would be sad, but I consider it a price worth paying.
Yes, you believed and maybe still believe in this but does it matter if there’s not a single soul you care for?
My work shall be judged after I die, and if it has benefited humanity or not, is all I care about. You think I do this because I like “the team”. I think you misjudged my devotion to the cause for a better humanity, and my willingness to see it through.
My make-believe daughter died of starvation in a world with
This stuff just happen, mate. Many things are deeply beyond your control. If you had seen shortages of food and people affected by malnutrition in a (communist) country crazy rich on grain, you’d probably choose to look the other way, but this stuff just happened and went down the history. I don’t want to berate SU on food distribution problem too much, just keep in mind that stuff like that happens.
so why can I not leave them to build a world in which that never happens?
sure you can, the point is, don’t get hopes up too much. On the way to build this world, which you might never see, you might have to cause deaths of much more people that you ever acknowledged mentally.
comrade, why, have only made examples of capitalism
yep, you’re absolutely right, these are examples from capitalism as well. However, living on “the ground”, regular people don’t feel much difference in relation to the higher ups. Well, you won’t believe me of course, but I hope one day you immigrate to live and work to communist country and prove me wrong.
I am more concerned with the 8 billion
I wish you’d feel how large this number is and how little concern for an actual person it leaves you with when you divide your attention among all of them. That brings me to the thought that you don’t really care about actual people. You play RedAlert 2 campaign and hope to win.
You think I do this because I like “the team”
Well, when you’re young you don’t care about “the team”/the family/ the company and maybe even yourself, time changes things. But whatever, I’ll shut up with granpa noises, let’s set a timer for 20 years and let’s see if you changed your mind.
Overall, I actually wanted to say that your present time toxicity doesn’t help much to those to bear the front lines of communist movement.
You think it’s fun, you doing your part, but then your comment appear in the news out of context. And here goes jordan bloody peperson advocating that neoliberal marxist movement is the threat to civilization. Your anger could be well spent elsewhere.
@muad_dibber@lemmygrad.ml probably does not need reminders (despite being North American), but here they are.
Capitalists have plenty of motives for committing atrocities: making space for more settlers, stealing resources, enforcing homogeneity, eliminating potential competitors, discouraging rebellions; in short, preserving their class at our cost.
An official apology coupled with substantial reparations for the families affected by the atrocities would be a good start. The families should preferably be the ones choosing the reparations.
I appreciate somebody raising awareness about these largely forgotten atrocities.
Yes.
There’s very little that we, as individuals, can do to get the attention of the ruling class. Informing other lower‐class people about these events is a more logical course of action.
Thank you, this message worth more than the whole tread combined.
Even though I have my questions about mechanics of such reparations, I do appreciate the care for writing the reply out.
My main problem with far left as a opposition to capitalism is general lack of concrete ways to achieve claimed moral goals.
Yes, everyone can find flaws in a working system, but can you make your system work in the first place? Everyone can say that the land will belong to the farmer, but can you really give it away and remain in power? No gulags, remember.
Let me state here that I’ve seen real life communism with my own eyes. A loved one of mine died because a Soviet style medical committee didn’t want to contradict their alumni, so I couldn’t get an investigation started.
The collective won over an individual, the peace in group has been sustained, my loved one slowly (over 3yrs) faded away while the committee’d been rescheduling their endless pointless meetings. This is missdocumented mass murder you probably don’t hear a lot about: on your own people for the sake of keeping “harmony”. And that’s the everyday reality where too much power has been put in one place.
deleted by creator
Yeah, mate, go on vilifying me while openly promoting violation of human rights. When millions of your own people tortured, worked to death, and sent to frontlines to die in a useless cause, don’t forget to blame it on me, random stranger on the internet expressing his concerns.
Heard of trains, haven’t you? Also why waste space leaving trains empty on the way back from delivering raw materials, let’s put all the political opposition there.
You should also remember that the people cannot do anything if stuff goes wrong. A nurse puts a bubble into Babushka’s vein, Babushka dies, the clinic protects the nurse, family receives nothing, not even investigation. Drunk therapist kills a patient? No one bats an eye. Intern mixes viles leading to life alterating injuries, it’s fine. I can go on and on how corrupt and dangerous those medical facilities in fact are but the people got no choice either way. Don’t forget who sends the Babushkas pension checks so they cannot afford any second opinion, you’d like them to have all the power, don’t you?
I do, I do open issues and I do work with poor people to improve their quality of life. You apparently just choose to ignore those initiatives.
This is flawed argument, there’s no positive relation between Communists impact in achieving their goals and me being skeptical about a particular ideology. If relation exists at all, it’s negative, i.e I actually would like social aspect of communism to succeed, but I ask of Communists to illustrate outstanding quality in their work and willingness to solve problems without going full Stalin. I seek proofs of that work and I will call out the mistakes.
*sigh* how stale this argument is, Soviet Union has funneling it from its origin and yet it’s still here. How many years, Carl, how many millions of lives you’d like to take before you’ll see the communism you seek?
P.S. am not British, have no affiliation to UK, I do not benefit from UK nor intend to in the future, so don’t waste your breath trying to accuse me in bootlicking. Believe it or not, I support calm listing the past injustices (thanks to @AnarchoBolshevik@lemmygrad.ml for sharing the links) so they may be payed back in the future, but this meme ain’t it, chief
deleted by creator
Not to mention that some camps could had been reached only by water paths, like rivers or seas, which by specific geographic position are frozen for the most of an year.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
As many as it takes
Wow, what a hot take.
Let’s see how you talk when those millions start with your sisters, brothers, parents, grandparents, siblings of all age, school friends, your favourite teachers, your spouse and your own children dying. Some from poor diet, some commit suicide, some by persecution, some just passing out from carriage clogged outgas on the way to a work camp. While some far away elites enjoy power and grand celebration, chosen not by merit, not by knowledge but by luck and bootlicking.
Yes, exactly how it is now but with different flag.
Do your loved ones would like to die as much as you do?
Do you want to attend a funeral of your 5y old daughter?
Can you live last 20 years of your life knowing you inadvertently destroyed lives of all who was true to you?
Yes, you believed and maybe still believe in this but does it matter if there’s not a single soul you care for?
too far, way too far to bring that into this. but it would be my fault if My make-believe daughter died of starvation in a world with cultivated and collectivized agriculture. IDK what deaths you are putting these under.
all of those people are liberals or make believe. Not really getting at much here. Also, I live in a country occupied by America. The people of Hawaii are treated like shit, and the high and mighty whites have done nothing but band-aid measures to soothe their own conscience. They need some Re-education, and some need to work outside in the world for a change. I did, and it made me grow as a person.
comrade, why, in your pursuit to attack Communism, have only made examples of capitalism. You project far too hard comrade.
one of my loved ones willingly did work for the imperialist war machine in Iraq for years, and has never shown regret. He left me to help drone strike children, so why can I not leave them to build a world in which that never happens? They need re-education.
I am more concerned with the 8 billion other people. If I got everyone I loved killed and improved the quality of life for the 3rd world, and freed the country that is occupied, I would be sad, but I consider it a price worth paying.
My work shall be judged after I die, and if it has benefited humanity or not, is all I care about. You think I do this because I like “the team”. I think you misjudged my devotion to the cause for a better humanity, and my willingness to see it through.
This stuff just happen, mate. Many things are deeply beyond your control. If you had seen shortages of food and people affected by malnutrition in a (communist) country crazy rich on grain, you’d probably choose to look the other way, but this stuff just happened and went down the history. I don’t want to berate SU on food distribution problem too much, just keep in mind that stuff like that happens.
sure you can, the point is, don’t get hopes up too much. On the way to build this world, which you might never see, you might have to cause deaths of much more people that you ever acknowledged mentally.
yep, you’re absolutely right, these are examples from capitalism as well. However, living on “the ground”, regular people don’t feel much difference in relation to the higher ups. Well, you won’t believe me of course, but I hope one day you immigrate to live and work to communist country and prove me wrong.
I wish you’d feel how large this number is and how little concern for an actual person it leaves you with when you divide your attention among all of them. That brings me to the thought that you don’t really care about actual people. You play RedAlert 2 campaign and hope to win.
Well, when you’re young you don’t care about “the team”/the family/ the company and maybe even yourself, time changes things. But whatever, I’ll shut up with granpa noises, let’s set a timer for 20 years and let’s see if you changed your mind.
Overall, I actually wanted to say that your present time toxicity doesn’t help much to those to bear the front lines of communist movement.
You think it’s fun, you doing your part, but then your comment appear in the news out of context. And here goes jordan bloody peperson advocating that neoliberal marxist movement is the threat to civilization. Your anger could be well spent elsewhere.