- cross-posted to:
- electoralism@hexbear.net
- cross-posted to:
- electoralism@hexbear.net
The former Wyoming congresswoman Liz Cheney “hopes to be able to rebuild” the Republican party after Donald Trump leaves the political stage. Mitt Romney, the retiring Utah senator and former presidential nominee, reportedly hopes so too.
Among other prominent Republicans who refuse to bow the knee, the former Maryland governor Larry Hogan is running for a US Senate seat in a party led by Trump but insists he can be part of a post-Trump GOP.
Michael Steele, the former Republican National Committee chair turned MSNBC host, advocated more dramatic action: “We have to blow this crazy-ass party up and have it regain its senses, or something else will be born out of it. There are only two options here. Hogan will be a key player in whatever happens. Liz Cheney, [former congressmen] Adam Kinzinger and Joe Walsh – all of us who have been pushed aside and fortunately were not infected with Maga, we will have something to say about what happens on 6 November.”
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If Trump loses, I don’t know that there will be a Republican party. The top people all hate each other and the only thing that unites them is brown-nosing Trump. They will tear the party apart all trying to replace him.
Which will be the optimal outcome
Unless they take the country with them
That only happens if he wins.
Or if their next attempt at murderous insurrection succeeds.
Yes. Yes, we will have to do something about that should that occur.
Don’t do that. Don’t give me hope.
I’m trying really hard to not be a pessimist right now for what I think are obvious reasons. It’s not easy.
Realistically, I’m jazzed to learn that my post-2024-election predictions from 2015 are already coming true… we might actually get the good future where the Democrats are the right-wing bad guys.
I have to think there’s something going on behind the scenes to organize a schism in the GOP, no matter what happens in this election. I think it’s unlikely that Liz Cheney and people like her will be able to wrest control of the current Republican party away from the fart sniffers, so they’re going to have to split and make a new party.
The outstanding question is “Why haven’t they done this already?” Maybe there’s just not enough solid support to pull it off ahead of the election, surely because there are a lot of people who are sniffing the farts out of fear, and they don’t want to burn that bridge yet.
Pay real close attention after this election. Lindsey Graham is going to show his other face again, and a whole bunch of other politicians will, too. Yes, there needs to be a path to redemption, but that path is going to have to include resignation for the likes of Graham, Vance, McConnell, anyone who supported Trump, then very much didn’t, and then supported him again. Such people cannot be entrusted with elected office.
Nah, not enough money. The donor class is firmly behind trump and his endless tax cuts for the rich.
so they’re going to have to split and make a new party.
They know if they split off, they will lose the party forever. Voters will never switch, they need the Republican brand. This isn’t about 4 years later, this is about long term.
Trump brings out the crazies to the primaries like no one else. This is why the old school just keeps their head down, they’re just waiting for Trump to bow out and hopefully the crazies eventually stop showing up to the primary.
The Democratic party will become the new right wing party. The question is whether the Republican party will survive in a new hyper fascist mode, or a real left wing party will pick up the pieces.
My hope is for the latter, but realistically it’ll be the former.
The entire Republican base will just vote red all the way down no matter who is in the ballot so I don’t think there is a scenario where the Republican Party ever dissolves. They could run a monkey for state senate in red districts and it would win office.
If Jesus ran as a Democrat and Satan as a Republican, current day Republicans would wonder why god wanted Satan in the white house
Wonder? You give a lot of credit.
Nah, they’d call Jesus communist and vote for their lord and savior Satan.
Fox would have them saying “Satan was unfairly slandered.” They turned viewers around on Russia, they can do anything.
They’d probably execute him
“The Lord is using him as a vessel to do his good works.”
I’m saying the Republican party itself will fracture into more than one party. I just don’t see them uniting without a cult of personality at this point.
The Republican party won’t go anywhere as long as we have a two party system.
We don’t have to have a two-party system. There’s no law requiring the Republican party to stay together. It’s just in their best interest to do so. I don’t know that they’ll care about what’s in their best interest after Trump. They’ll be too busy tearing each other apart, something they’ve wanted to do since 2015.
The two party system is an inevitable consequence of the FPTP election system. Replace that, and you can have multiple parties. Otherwise, you might get a short period of chaos with multiple parties which then settles down to the two winners.
Ironically, I could see that being the catalyst for ranked choice voting.
If you get a sane voting system out of all this then it just might have all been worth it. But it’s not how I would have gone about getting there…
I’m sure there will be some fun “huh, odd, all the votes for X went to Y” if it happens.
You say that but how do you unite extremist and moderate views? You don’t, it’s unsustainable. So no the party won’t fail to exist but if it fractures enough, it will take time to reform. A pretty long time.
They unite under their dislike of the other side and/or their supposed policies.
I used to see it that way but now? I doubt it will be that simple. So what if Trump is gone and no other republican leader can fit his shoes? Do they even have to?
Maybe it can be even more beneficial for the republicans to have a dead Trump. They can finally have complete control over his thoughts, his brand, image, his idealogy. With ai technology they can insert a nostalgic idealized version of Trump that he never was. More charismatic, more cohesive, malleable, and eternal. A figure like Jesus, like Mlk, like founding fathers. Who cares the real trump is dead? You can do anything with a base that is so hopelessly lost.
Somehow no other Repub is that shameless or that willing to behave like a schoolyard bully. The secret sauce is a guy who will say bigoted dictator shit out loud while doing an endless and uninterrupted parade of scandals.
I don’t know why they are unable to reproduce it since the party is full of shamelessly corrupt bigots who should in theory be willing to try. I guess looking like a complete dipshit hurts their pride, whereas Donald is an actual dipshit so it comes naturally.
As long as there is a large concentration of a anti-education, anti-intellectual, and nationalistic brained people in easily gerrymandered areas there will probably always be a conservative party. The GOP has been playing their hateful scared brains like a fiddle for a good four plus decades, and they won’t go quietly into the night.
Maybe if we didn’t have a poorly planned two party system they’d have far less actual power.
I’m saying there will (potentially) be two conservative parties.
I could see your scenario being scary if the “reasonable” GOP members and funders split off and started sucking all the “conservative” liberal groups that normally vote Democratic but could be swayed to embrace even more neo-liberal policies.
you have to admit, it has been satisfying to watch them eat each other
It really won’t be hard. Both sides (the trumpet and the old school) know they need the Republican brand to win. They’ll have a primary and then they’ll do what they do best: fall in line.
Maybe y’all shouldn’t have made it so hard for third parties to run.
I wouldn’t mind a new socialist party in the u.s politics.
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It’d be great if any of them had a proper ground game for local elections instead of just popping up every 4 years and only hyping a presidential candidate. They look too disorganized to take seriously.
It’s more fundamental than that. First-past-the-post voting systems inevitably turn into two-party rule. It’s built into the foundations of how the American government is voted for.
You see the same two-party rule in Canada even tho we have other viable, well-established parties.
Fptp is the problem, but neither of our (or your) major parties want to change the rules because it works for their benefit 50% of the time.
Im actually on the opinion that FPTP is not the main problem, it’s flawed but the actual problem is the amount of power the president has, you could still have FPTP in a parliamentary system that allows for smaller parties to have power in alliances and stuff like that.
For federal level, I can agree that the lack of ranked-choice hurts third party chances. Voters see too much risk in not voting for a major party.
That being said, well-coordinated local and state-level can definitely get a higher rate of success and show that there’s more to those parties besides political posturing. I’ve seen more campaigning for a primary for my local sheriff’s office this year than I had ever seen for any third party candidate ever at a local level. If the third parties focused on the down ballot, they would have more opportunity to show that they can put forward competent candidates to build trust for higher elected positions.
Most of them are too busy grifting. They’re stirring up local funding collecting all the people they can and then getting a bigger payday when the 4-year elections roll around.
You should watch the video I linked, it’s only 6 minutes long. The problem is that if you did manage to get more success for a third-party candidate that would be a bad thing. It would mean that the resulting government will be less likely to reflect your positions and ideals than it would if there had been no third-party candidate you supported.
In a first-past-the-post voting system trying to figure out how to make third-party candidates viable is a self-defeating goal. Unless you’re focusing on trying to make third-party candidates who appeal to your opponent’s voting group more viable, that is. Which is why you keep seeing sneaky donations from right-wing PACs to the Green party and such. The Republicans would love to see the Green party become a more prominent and viable option for left-leaning voters. And likewise, a lot of Democrats are cheering for RFK Jr. to be on the ballot because he draws more support from the right than from the left.
Trump happened because large segments of US voters feel disenfranchised and resentful, as they feel they have been left behind and that their lives have been made worse by the policies of the political establishment and experts. If said political establishment and the experts want to end the Trump movement and prevent something similar from happening again, they’re going to have to address the concerns of dissatisfied voters. I don’t really think either party knows how to go about doing that.
I think part of the reason for that is there’s still significant discussion about what has caused so many Americans to become so unhappy with leadership, and you can’t really come up with a solution until you correctly identify the problem. I still don’t think the experts have a very good grasp on why Americans are upset. Until they figure it out, they can’t come up with a solution, and until they come up with a solution, movements like Trumpism are still very possible.
It’s really not hard to identify why, but billionaires will spend their life savings convincing people that late stage capitalism and oligarchy work.
Trump is happening because far right republicans realized after Watergate that if they wanted to get away with crimes in the future, that they needed to have news that presents “alternate” facts that are favorable to their narrative or that would at the least muddy the waters. Roger Ailes his plan worked basically.
Without censoring his appearances, Trump comes across as petulant/weak/selfish/stupid/hateful/… Without censoring his history, republican voters would have known that he was a serial scam artist, serial adulterer, … Basically without that alternate fact media supporting rightwing skullduggery, there would never have been a president Trump.
Imo it’s nonsense to claim that Trump getting elected, is happening because voters are angry because of mysterious reasons that no one can figure out, when those voters are so misinformed that they consistently vote against their own interests and believe stupid conspiracy theories that are being pushed to rile them up against the “other”. As long as that many people live in an alternate reality based on lies and hate, there is no helping them. So the challenge becomes: how do you bring them out of it and how do you prevent it from happening again in the future.
it’s nonsense to claim that Trump getting elected, is happening because voters are angry because of mysterious reasons that no one can figure out…
That’s not exactly what I am saying. It’s more that there isn’t yet a consensus of what the root problem is. There are a lot of theories, sure, like yours. That’s one theory, but, confident though you may be that that is the exact problem, not everyone agrees, or at least they think there’s more to it than that.
I think there might be some truth to your theory, but I don’t agree with the idea that these people are essentially doing fine, but they’ve been brainwashed into thinking they’re not doing fine. That it’s all just a result of some kind of mass hypnosis. That kind of erases the very real problems that many of these people do face.
One thing we can all agree on is that the problem that upsets voters has nothing to do with lack of healthcare, inability to purchase a first home, lack of a decent social safety net nor anything to do with inflation, money in politics or dark money corporate pak donations
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At what point will voting for that new left party become optimal?
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always has been
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when they reach 33%
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when Republicans reach 25%
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when Republicans are literally gone
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other
If you plan to wait until you can vote for them in a national election then you’re missing the point.
The democracy you’re looking for is built from the bottom up, starting with your coworkers.
The first vote you should be concerned with is a card check election to unionize your workplace.
In that case, same question, but for a small local race.
Same answer, smaller scale.
So then at what stage of unionization is it safe to support what would currently be a spoiler party?
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When they run candidates for lower offices in “safe” districts, and can win seats there. At that point, they can force the Dems into coalition building.
Or when the Republican party has about as much influence as the Libertarian and Constitution parties. Either/or.
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This also applies to much of the left. It’s because the US is an oligarchy and doesn’t have representation that is proportional
People are downvoting you but it’s correct. The left has no representation in this country. It’s just far-right and right when you go to the polls.
And, when you say that, “you support Trump”.
Yeah these are the words of sycophants who are no better than MAGA Republicans. They have want to keep our system broken and ineffective because it keeps their idols in power.
Trump happened because large segments of US voters feel disenfranchised and resentful, as they feel they have been left behind and that their lives have been made worse by the policies of the political establishment and experts.
Plus “and their solution is to oppress outgroups so that, in comparison, they have more status.”
Oh they fucking know. Say it with me:
Wealth InequityI don’t think anyone really hates Jo Millionaire. Jo, the master electrician that lives down the street and employs 5-10 electricians from apprentice to employee-master is a millionaire and contributes positively to their local community. Creating jobs through helping people with their electrical projects, spending in the local economy, etc. And that’s a realistic goal for their apprentices to aspire and work towards.
Unfortunately that’s who republican voters think they’re voting to support.
But they’ve been duped; they’re actually voting to support the Billionaire Aristocrats of the world who pull up the ladder behind them through monetary influence of politics and not paying a damn dime on their ‘income’ (because they’re “borrowing against” their unfathomable hoard).
“They” know why the voters and disenfranchised and that’s their fucking plan—because it keeps them employed and wining and dining fancy with their Aristocrat puppet masters.
I don’t think anyone really hates Jo Millionaire. Jo, the master electrician that lives down the street and employs 5-10 electricians from apprentice to employee-master is a millionaire and contributes positively to their local community.
I think that’s true, but some Jo millionaires get rich enough to become part of the billionaire aristocrats. That’s the goal, isn’t it? Don’t most business owners want to grow their business and their wealth, seemingly indefinitely? Maybe that’s why the millionaires are such strong supporters of the billionaires: because they ultimately aspire to be among them. Obviously, most won’t be able to achieve that, but they aspire to it nonetheless.
No. The Republican Party is now a cult devoted to a person. The party will not be able to move on until that person is out of the picture.
Even if he loses this election he’ll be a kingmaker behind the scenes for the rest of his life. On top of being the default candidate every 4 years until he dies.
We’re gonna be deprogramming these people for the rest of our lives.
Just let them be “republicans”, make a new “conservatives” party and with the fucked up system the democrats will win every time …
Hmm…
That’s assuming half of the less liberal democrats don’t also join that new party.
Imagine two main political parties that each try to do their best for their constituents and their country, are ethical and upstanding citizens, and willing to work with their peers to build the future. Imagine choosing between multiple legitimate candidates by policy, rather than fear of fascism
Hopefully enough people understand that the system is broken and needs some fixing instead.
This is exactly what I hope happens… I’m just not sure Republicans have it in them not to line up behind a flawed candidate.
Are you implying that the assassination attempt(s) might be attempts to save the GOP?
Are you implying that the assassination attempt(s) might be attempts to save the GOP?
The second would-be assassin seemed to think so.
The brand is kind of poisoned, they should abandon it, let the wackos have it, and come up with something new.
Honestly, they could take over the Libertarian party quite easily. It’s not like its current leadership is particularly effective.
Libertarian is socially liberal though, that’s the last thing Republicans want.
Dunno if you’ve seen much of the LP, but they are definitely not socially liberal.
And, even if they were, you could just promise bogus tax cuts and cheap legal weed and slide in being socially conservative, they wouldn’t notice.
But yes, you are right, Libertarian capitalists want the social freedom to make profits, which comes from restricting freedoms for those who are less wealthy. They will always fundamentally want less freedom for those they will oppress in order to force them to so kindly donate the vast majority of their labour in return for a small payment.
The ideology theoretically is. Socially liberal and fiscally conservative.
Are they going to rebuild or they just trying to migrate and take over the Democratic Party? We have this tendency to assume that this country is going to be two parties just as they are right now for the rest of our time but parties have changed in America many times. Hell, these two parties virtually swap places once. Nothing says it can’t happen again.
Considering the number of republicans who have officially come out in support of Harris, even if it’s just to avoid trump, it’s certainly possible.
Are they going to rebuild or they just trying to migrate and take over the Democratic Party?
This is exactly what I think is happening. The result of R destroying itself is somehow turning out to be no political home for progressives and left of them in US politics.
A lot has shifted over time, but the default state of American politics has always been two dominant parties.
That said, I could absolutely see a scenario where an American centrist party forms, still solidly to the right of most Western democracy, but centrist by current local standards, which not only pulls in the non-MAGA Republicans but also moderate Democrats, blue collar Dems from purple states, and once it gains traction and wins a few races, massive support from corporations and lobbies.
They’d win landslide victories over both older parties, especially as progressives and leftists gained greater control of the Democratic party through the flight of the moderates to the new centrist party, which would in turn drive even more establishment Dems to the new party.
They could run on nothing more than “common sense compromise, unity, and moving beyond the partisan squabbling that has plagued the country for decades”, and be successful for at least 3 cycles before they even had to really take up any issues in earnest.
The deep South would stay red, the West cost, new York, and Illinois would stay blue, but I could see all of the mid Atlantic, Midwest, plains states, new England, and Southwest going for a viable centrist party.
For a long few years, national level politics would be absolute fucking chaos.
I’m not sure about New England. New Hampshire and Maine such a party would probably work in, but I am doubtful of any of the rest. MA and VT are two of the most left-leaning states in the country.
Fair point
The current governor of Vermont is a Republican. Vermont tends to vote for the person rather than the party.
And MA has also had Republican governors in recent history, yet both are always among the highest % voting Democratic in presidential/congressional elections with Democratic supermajorities in their state houses.
Governors in New England are often a weird exception and are sometimes linked to poor turnout. That does not mean either state would have more of an appetite for a centrist party. Such a party would probably take more Republican votes than Democratic.
After the dictator dies, there is always a battle of wannabes trying to replace him, a map of regional warlords trying to be the next Grand Cheetoh. Hopefully those regional warlords fall into obscurity and sanity prevails
Nope. Assuming that Trump loses (which I had thought was a foregone conclusion, but genocide and stupidity is a hell of a drug)…
People like being on the winning team. And having lost the popular vote three times in a row, Trumpism will start to fade. Republicans will switch to the Democrat party, cementing the current rightwards shift. Imagine the Democrats being pro-border in 2020? 2022?
The only silver lining is that in 8 to 10 years we might actually see a progressive party emerge.
If Trump wins, we get faster genocide plus Fascism at home, so at least there’s that to look forward to. Hope you’re practicing how to be a straight cis white male Christian because it’s going to be a rough time for everyone else.
But hey, Jill Stein won’t get that check from Putin unless you vote for her and Cornel West has alimony payments to make.
If trump loses? Yeah. They will. He is already going extra senile and has spent the past eight years proving he can’t get downballot candidates elected.
Which will get us back to bush era republicans. Basically buying us maybe another decade until they transition from “we need to fight crime and promote family values” to “let’s murder some brown people and enslave women” again.
Why would they want to? They have all but taken over the democratic party. The US now has OG republicans and the new world fascist party.
The current Dem standce on immigration is wild… not the wall is a weird idea… no they now say trump is just ineffective in building it.
The current Dem standce on immigration is wild… not the wall is a weird idea… no they now say trump is just ineffective in building it.
Republicans: “We absolutely will not allow a single bit of progress on this issue unless you give us a wall”
Democrats; “Fine you can have your wall if it means we can at least fix part of the problem now”
Seems like the wild position here are the assholes demanding a wall in order to allow action. They control the House. We have to change that.
Until Democrats stop using the threat of a Republican administration to extort our votes, they get to be held responsible for all the Republican legislation they help pass.
How about not having a party that did everything possible to get us to this place. I want what the dems are now to be as far to the right as this country is willing to go.
Step one, stop letting anyone crazier take power.
While right vs left is overall a useless idea, overall I wan to move more right than trump who I find too centrist. To each their own.
You want to move more right than Trump? You find Trump too centrist?
What the actual fuck
This Lemmitor seems pro-genocide. Here’s a post from 27 days ago from their profile:
They have - for now - eliminated Hamas as a threat. If they have the guts to occupy the Gaza strip for the next 50 years - and do this well they can change the attitude of the people there. I don’t know if they have the political will for that - and the world is clearly against it. (I also don’t know if it will work, but it is just as good a plan as anything else)
While right vs left is overall a useless idea, overall I wan to move more right
Well done for using the ‘useless idea’ to explain what you prefer. All in the same sentence!
overall I wan to
Overall I wan to oppress the poors
Overall I wan to suck my thumb
Overall I wan to worship the cheeto
Overall I wan to kiss his bumSo like death camps, state religion, absolute monarchy? What the fuck else is to the right of The Idiot?
Fuck that and fuck anyone who wants that.
If that is your attitude about people who disagree with you don’t be surprised when they disengage. There is no point in commenting farther when you have already decided on your own version of what “the right” stands for.
“I have no excuses for the awful shit I want.”
“Gosh, why can’t a vaguepost about a wannabe dictator not being far-right enough for my tastes?”
You seem to mistaking Trump for my positions. I’ve been voting third party for decades.
You literally wrote “I wan to move more right than trump who I find too centrist.”
What the fuck does that mean? What could it possibly mean, to be more right than The Idiot, when The Idiot is a naked fascist?
fascism is a very different thing from what I want. That you seem to think it is the only option suggests you know nothing about how people ‘on the right’ think.
Within a year or two of Trump dying they will have the party back under control and everyone will be taking marching orders from only the megadonors again.
The only reason the maga nutjobs got tontake center stage was Trump saying the horrible shit out loud with the delivery that some people wanted to hear. The fact that nobody has upstaged him is a good sign that there isn’t a similar person waiting in the wings to fill his role.
Not so fast. David Duke was saying the quiet part out loud and he was only a fringe candidate. There’s something else going on here, I don’t know what it is exactly, that makes Trump more marketable.
The only things I can think of is that he has had decades in the public eye, and he’s been presented as smart and successful for most of that time. And bizarrely enough, he reflects a bygone era in America where blue collar union guys had pensions, which were blown away by billionaires like him. And yet, this billionaire known for grift and stiffing his workers, somehow became their champion.
The whole process has opened my eyes to just how much marketing works with a certain demographic.
There’s something else going on here, I don’t know what it is exactly, that makes Trump more marketable.
He is a professional bullshitter who can say anything with a straight face. It works on a large part of the population, because humans are social creatures who want to hear what they want to hear. They want to be told all their problems will be magically solved and are the fault of someone else.
His kids are probably waiting in the wings expecting to be future candidates.
Would be wonderful if Steele only succeeds in creating a center-right party, with the GOP still existing as far-right, giving the Democrats (who now have permission to move left) a leg-up in the future.
The Democratic Party will never move left. If our country exists in a recognizable way in four years, we need to put every Republican on trial, let the Dems be the party on the right, and start a new leftist party. Anyone with an R after their name is supporting a traitor to democracy, and is guilty of treason by association.
We have to blow this crazy-ass party up and have it regain its senses
You all going back to Eisenhower years then? The rot has been in the party for a long time, Trump is just the final result, not a cause.
I might vote for an Eisenhower Republican. 90% tax on the rich to pay for infrastructure and federal work programs? Sign me up.
Wait that far? I’d have said Reagan.
Reagan was a product of the shift Republicans had made earlier to help guarantee votes and power. The difference in the GOP then and now was mainly in how much they could say out loud.
Nixon started the rot with the Southern Strategy. Reagan made it so much worse. Both of them were complete and utter pieces of shit.
Yeah, if you want a healthy, nontoxic Republican party, you gotta go back to Eisenhower.
NOPE!
Hogan is a great example. I actually wasn’t upset when he won his second term as governor, even though I disagree with some of his policies - but in general he did some good stuff for Maryland during his terms. Like getting masks and covid test kits in secrecy so Trump’s idiots wouldn’t confiscate them, as happened elsewhere in the country.
I’ll never forgive him for axing the bike lane on the new Nice Bridge; we’re stuck with that decision for at least 50 years now. But, by far, my biggest problem with Hogan is the “R” after his name.
Those third-party organizations are running ads that say things like, “I voted for Hogan, but not this time - we can’t let the Republicans gain power in Congress.” (Other organizations are noting “scandals” for the other candidate about taking tax breaks to which she wasn’t entitled, but they seem overblown. It seems pretty silly coming from supporters of the party of George Santos, Matt Gaetz, and how many others…)
