@Midnight If Russia were the only one involved, and if weren’t provoked by outside powers like say, oh, the United States, yea I could agree with you but my knowledge of history precludes my accepting that explanation.
@davel If the world were so simple then those with single digit IQ’s and no real knowledge of historical fact would be able to understand it, unfortunately it is not.
They’re not dumb; usually it’s that they live in the bubble of Western propaganda, while simultaneously believing that they haven’t been propagandized their whole lives.
People not only don’t know what’s happening to them, they don’t even know that they don’t know. — Noam Chomsky
And really, who even has the time and energy to know? It’s actually a lot of work, and we live under neoliberalism, where most of us are just trying to keep our heads above water. Plus, there’s no social or financial upside to bucking the hegemonic viewpoint.
@davel Everyone has their own perspective but I think most people here are trying to greatly over simply a complex situation with and Noam Chomsky offers only yet another perspective and I disagree with him on the issue of world government or extinction. I don’t think world government on a large scale, particularly the way it is now with no real citizenship representation, is particularly desirable.
We’re going a bit off in the weeds here 😂 but yes, Chomsky is what we Marxists call a “radical recuperator,” or a member of the “compatible left.” He’s done useful work, but ultimately he steers people back to the status quo.
Noam Chomsky and the Compatible Left: I, II, III, IV
NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev HeardU.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University.
The Ukraine Mess That Nuland MadeAssistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences.
The West’s Sabotage of Peace in UkraineIn May of [2022] Ukrainian media reported that then-British prime minister Boris Johnson had flown to Kiev the previous month to pass on the message on behalf of the western empire that “Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with,” and that “even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not.”
The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
The shooting war in Ukraine began with Yanukovych’s overthrow nine years ago, not in February 2022 as the U.S. government, NATO, and the G7 leaders would have us believe.
So many people forget that the Ukrainian Russian conflict never really ended, the idea that it was an unprovoked invasion is absurd, (and no, before someone decides to make a braindead comment, provoked does not mean justified.) There have been many leaked videos pre-invasion of violence towards both sides, and neither side made a proper effort to actually quell it, only surface level bullshit inorder to take the "moral ground:
Westerners usually don’t know any of that, because Western governments, NGOs, and corporate media erase all inconvenient context and history. I try to point folks toward developing real media literacy…
Holy shit I didn’t know admins in this place were full blown Russian lickers. I don’t know about you but I would gladly have my country join nato if that means not ending up like Georgia or now Ukraine twice.
Also congrats on getting Finland to finally join nato btw.
It goes much further back, and it involves a lot more Ukrainian fascism than people realize. History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV
During the 1932 Holodomor Famine, the USSR sent aid to affected regions in an attempt to alleviate the famine. According to Mark Tauger in his article, The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933:
While the leadership did not stop exports, they did try to alleviate the famine. A 25 February 1933 Central Committee decree allotted seed loans of 320,000 tons to Ukraine and 240,000 tons to the northern Caucasus. Seed loans were also made to the Lower Volga and may have been made to other regions as well. Kul’chyts’kyy cites Ukrainian party archives showing that total aid to Ukraine by April 1933 actually exceeded 560,000 tons, including more than 80,000 tons of food
Some bring up massive grain exports during the famine to show that the Soviet Union exported food while Ukraine starved. This is fallacious for a number of reasons, but most importantly of all the amount of aid that was sent to Ukraine alone actually exceeded the amount that was exported at the time.
Aid to Ukraine alone was 60 percent greater than the amount exported during the same period. Total aid to famine regions was more than double exports for the first half of 1933.
According to Tauger, the reason why more aid was not provided was because of the low harvest
It appears to have been another consequence of the low 1932 harvest that more aid was not provided: After the low 1931, 1934, and 1936 harvests procured grain was transferred back to peasants at the expense of exports.
Tauger is not a communist, and ultimately this specific article takes the view that the low harvest was caused by collectivization (he factors in the natural causes of the famine in later articles, based on how he completely neglects to mention weather in this article at all its clear that his position shifted over the years). However, the Soviets really did try to alleviate the famine as best as they could. Maybe spend some time learning a bit of history instead of flaunting your ignorance in public.
@Samueru I find it humorous that someone would downvote me for suggesting that history goes back more than a decade. Guess they are less than ten years old and think their parents appeared out of nowhere when they were born.
Right??? They act like they are concerned about what events could have taken place to ensure that the invasion never happened. Guess what could have occurred that would have been the biggest guarantee that the invasion could never happen? Ukraine joining NATO prior to the invasion…
All NATO wanted to do was to use Ukraine as a tool to weaken Russia, and now NATO will discard Ukraine like a used condom. That’s the fate of all the vassals of the empire.
NATO will continue expanding as more and more border countries don’t want to deal with limp dick Putin. Russia will be broken up to small territories and anything that remains of the federation will be scrapped and sold for salvage to finance rebuilding what has been lost.
That is what the US has wanted for the last 25 years, but it’s unlikely to happen. The Global North has very significantly de-industrialized itself, and its attempts at sanctions not only haven’t worked, but are having the effect of it isolating itself from the global majority. Russia has aligned with the Global South. Hence BRICS+ and the larger developing multipolar bloc that’s going its own way, ignoring the US’ “rules-based international order” sanctions, developing its own international balance of payments outside of US dollar hegemony, and working to get out from under the boot of the IMF’s & World Bank’s debt traps.
the federation will be scrapped and sold for salvage
@Midnight If Russia were the only one involved, and if weren’t provoked by outside powers like say, oh, the United States, yea I could agree with you but my knowledge of history precludes my accepting that explanation.
You see the Russians are the real Nazis, not the Banderites who attacked Eastern Ukrainians for the decade before this war started.
@davel If the world were so simple then those with single digit IQ’s and no real knowledge of historical fact would be able to understand it, unfortunately it is not.
They’re not dumb; usually it’s that they live in the bubble of Western propaganda, while simultaneously believing that they haven’t been propagandized their whole lives.
People not only don’t know what’s happening to them, they don’t even know that they don’t know. — Noam Chomsky
And really, who even has the time and energy to know? It’s actually a lot of work, and we live under neoliberalism, where most of us are just trying to keep our heads above water. Plus, there’s no social or financial upside to bucking the hegemonic viewpoint.
@davel Everyone has their own perspective but I think most people here are trying to greatly over simply a complex situation with and Noam Chomsky offers only yet another perspective and I disagree with him on the issue of world government or extinction. I don’t think world government on a large scale, particularly the way it is now with no real citizenship representation, is particularly desirable.
We’re going a bit off in the weeds here 😂 but yes, Chomsky is what we Marxists call a “radical recuperator,” or a member of the “compatible left.” He’s done useful work, but ultimately he steers people back to the status quo.
Noam Chomsky and the Compatible Left: I, II, III, IV
🥱
So many people forget that the Ukrainian Russian conflict never really ended, the idea that it was an unprovoked invasion is absurd, (and no, before someone decides to make a braindead comment, provoked does not mean justified.) There have been many leaked videos pre-invasion of violence towards both sides, and neither side made a proper effort to actually quell it, only surface level bullshit inorder to take the "moral ground:
Westerners usually don’t know any of that, because Western governments, NGOs, and corporate media erase all inconvenient context and history. I try to point folks toward developing real media literacy…
@davel @drwankingstein All of which have their biases and really a very limited subsample of viewpoints and history.
Holy shit I didn’t know admins in this place were full blown Russian lickers. I don’t know about you but I would gladly have my country join nato if that means not ending up like Georgia or now Ukraine twice.
Also congrats on getting Finland to finally join nato btw.
You are on the Russian instance my friend. I would strongly recommend finding a new home.
By Russian instance you mean one where people engage with reality that’s uncomfortable for the utterly brainwashed people like yourself?
always hilarious to see nafoids show up here
@Samueru @davel Is there something about people from lemmy.ml that makes them only capable of insults as opposed to rational discussions?
removed
Or that’s what this would be on Lemmy.ml. They are all tankies and they get mad when you point out terrible things like facts.
I love how you dronies always project. The only ones who are mad are you lot. We just think you provide free entertainment like court jesters.
What rational discussion is to be had when one country is clearly annexing another since 2014 lmao?
The US currently occupies a larger percentage of Syria than Russia is of Ukraine, but do go on.
@Samueru The history goes back way before 2014 and your summation of the situation is inaccurate.
It goes much further back, and it involves a lot more Ukrainian fascism than people realize. History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV
.
Ukraine, and Europe in general, didn’t maintain this post-WWII fascism all on their own, though: The US. bears significant responsibility. The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
Yes it goes back to Holodomor and how russia has always treated ukranians as second class citizens.
During the 1932 Holodomor Famine, the USSR sent aid to affected regions in an attempt to alleviate the famine. According to Mark Tauger in his article, The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933:
Some bring up massive grain exports during the famine to show that the Soviet Union exported food while Ukraine starved. This is fallacious for a number of reasons, but most importantly of all the amount of aid that was sent to Ukraine alone actually exceeded the amount that was exported at the time.
According to Tauger, the reason why more aid was not provided was because of the low harvest
Tauger is not a communist, and ultimately this specific article takes the view that the low harvest was caused by collectivization (he factors in the natural causes of the famine in later articles, based on how he completely neglects to mention weather in this article at all its clear that his position shifted over the years). However, the Soviets really did try to alleviate the famine as best as they could. Maybe spend some time learning a bit of history instead of flaunting your ignorance in public.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2500600
@Samueru I find it humorous that someone would downvote me for suggesting that history goes back more than a decade. Guess they are less than ten years old and think their parents appeared out of nowhere when they were born.
Right??? They act like they are concerned about what events could have taken place to ensure that the invasion never happened. Guess what could have occurred that would have been the biggest guarantee that the invasion could never happen? Ukraine joining NATO prior to the invasion…
All NATO wanted to do was to use Ukraine as a tool to weaken Russia, and now NATO will discard Ukraine like a used condom. That’s the fate of all the vassals of the empire.
@yogthos @theunknownmuncher The controllers of said empire isn’t the elected government. How we can reign that back in, I don’t know.
That’s the big question of our times.
@theunknownmuncher @Samueru Like Russia placing nukes in Cuba guaranteed we wouldn’t invade it?
The thing about not being willing to learn from history is that you are then destined to repeat the same mistakes.
Cool, maybe the US will blow up its new ally’s pipelines too someday. We are not a trustworthy ally.
NATO will continue expanding as more and more border countries don’t want to deal with limp dick Putin. Russia will be broken up to small territories and anything that remains of the federation will be scrapped and sold for salvage to finance rebuilding what has been lost.
Ta-ta!
That is what the US has wanted for the last 25 years, but it’s unlikely to happen. The Global North has very significantly de-industrialized itself, and its attempts at sanctions not only haven’t worked, but are having the effect of it isolating itself from the global majority. Russia has aligned with the Global South. Hence BRICS+ and the larger developing multipolar bloc that’s going its own way, ignoring the US’ “rules-based international order” sanctions, developing its own international balance of payments outside of US dollar hegemony, and working to get out from under the boot of the IMF’s & World Bank’s debt traps.
The neocolonial plunderers already tried that, and they even got away with under Yeltsin, but then Putin kicked them out, which is why they’re especially butthurt about him.
@CaptDust @davel When you need to resort to insults like this it’s a clear sign you’ve lost the argument.
Not always, but often 😂