France is speedrunning this right now. Any time a liberal claims to be antifascist, ask them to explain why they think fascism exists and where it comes from, materially.
To be fair, if liberals were capable of material analysis then they would no longer be liberals.
Fair, lol
What does “material analysis” means in this context? What should I search to know more? I searched the term and only came up with chemistry topics.
Simply put, materialism — as opposed to idealism — is the idea that everything we do and experience as a society (our history, culture, politics, etc) is shaped by the material reality around us, rather than ideas.
“Material analysis” in this case therefore means analysing politics and history through this lens. And it’s a fundamental component of socialism/marxism.
Simple diagram of how our material reality shapes our society
⠀
Yogthos is insulting liberals because liberalism is an idealist ideology that always eventually gives way to fascism when a capitalist state is (inevitably) in decay.
Thank you for the explanation. Hopefully I learn something from the reference you linked. I’ll watch the video first before reading the literatures.
My original comment is meant to refer to the concept of Materialism, which contains the concepts of Marxist Dialectical and Historical Materialism. Materialism is a “reality-focused” branch of philosophy and analysis, contrasted with Idealism, which is idea-focused.
The connection to liberalism and fascism is because Liberalism is Idealist as opposed to Materialist. The Liberal answer to “where does fascism come from?” Would be “demagogues like Trump rising to power, racism, xenophobia, etc,” yet when you ask why those ideas are present or not present, the Liberal cannot answer genuinely.
For Marxists, fascism is a consequence of Capitalism’s decline, resulting in the Petty Bourgeois elements of society, ie the “Middle Class,” sliding into worse conditions and allying with the Bourgeoisie against the Proletariat. In the Weimar Republic, Capitalism was declining and genuine Communism was gaining steam, with the KPD at the forefront and the SPD representing the moderate Socialists, so fascism gained power as a reaction. Communism and Socialism gained appeal among the Lower Classes while fascism gained power among the Liberals, ie the Middle and Upper Classes.
The other works listed by other commenters are great, but my personal favorite work on the subject is Elementary Principles of Philosophy.
In Nazi Germany
Weimar Republic
Yes, misspoke. Was refering to the eventual rise of the Nazis, not their period of control. Has been corrected now, thanks.
Thank you for taking the time to explain the topic to me. I appreciate it. I’ll try to read the book.
No problem! DM me if you have any questions, or ask in one of the Marxist communities here, on Lemmygrad, or Hexbear.
You’re very good at strawmanning arguments. I think most libs would just say that racism and xenophobia are inherent to tribalism, which is inherent to the human mind as an evolutionary trait. It can and should be overcome, but that doesn’t change its innateness in our psyche.
I think most libs would just say that racism and xenophobia are inherent to tribalism, which is inherent to the human mind as an evolutionary trait.
This is still Idealism. The concept of “Human Nature” is nebulous, and changes throughout history. Materialists assert that what is considered “Human Nature” is reinforced and created by Mode of Production, Liberals just claim Capitalism to be natural and the default state of humanity. The difference is that Materialists have historical evidence, whereas Liberalism stands against historical evidence.
You’re strawmanning my argument. I never said anything about human nature. I said that tribalism, as a psychological principle, is inherent to humanity.
Here is an article which details some studies supporting this concept from a pop-sci website:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/brain-reboot/202307/the-neuroscience-of-tribalism
Also, for somebody apparently on the side of historical evidence you seem to be ignoring the mountains of genocides and racially-based conflicts throughout our species’ history.
I’m not saying racism is good. I’m saying that every time we see fascists come to power they have roughly a third of the population that supports them… is that just a coincidence or could there be a reason that the data is the same every time? I posit the reason that the data is the same every time is due, at least in large part, to human psychology.
Besides that, let’s take this outside the concept of liberalism and capitalism, as race-based conflicts and genocides have occurred long before the creation of capitalist or liberal systems, which are truly an advent of the modern era.
You’re strawmanning my argument. I never said anything about human nature. I said that tribalism, as a psychological principle, is inherent to humanity.
“I didn’t say anything about Human Nature, I spoke about the Nature of Humanity!” What on Earth?
Also, for somebody apparently on the side of historical evidence you seem to be ignoring the mountains of genocides and racially-based conflicts throughout our species’ history.
Not in the slightest have I ignored them. What’s considered natural changes alongside Mode of Production.
I’m not saying racism is good. I’m saying that every time we see fascists come to power they have roughly a third of the population that supports them… is that just a coincidence or could there be a reason that the data is the same every time? I posit the reason that the data is the same every time is due, at least in large part, to human psychology.
You would be wrong. Fascism is a result of Class Collaborationism between the Petite Bourgeoisie and Bourgeoisie against the decline in Capitalism. Due to their class interests, as the Petite Bourgeoisie is proletarianized, it collaborates against the Proletariat as a response to Socialism. Your position is, again, Idealism.
Besides that, let’s take this outside the concept of liberalism and capitalism, as race-based conflicts and genocides have occurred long before the creation of capitalist or liberal systems, which are truly an advent of the modern era.
Yes, again, Human Nature changes alongside Mode of Production.
“Human nature” is formed by societal norms, which are in turn formed by the present mode of production and thus material reality. Humans aren’t racist by nature lmfao, such a dumb right wing assertion.
I never said anything about human nature. If you’re interested in reading more I replied to another comment on this thread.
Necessary reading.
You could start here though.
The latter is probably a little easier to digest/dip your toes in. The former is the answer to your question.Material analysis is an analysis using the method of dialectical materialism and historical materialism.
To put in in a grossly oversimplified way, one of the most important concepts of dialectical materialism is that ideas aren’t independent from society. Peoples don’t pull ideas out of some Platonist void, their ideas are shaped by and consequences of the society and material conditions they live in.
For example, writing didn’t appear just because some guy one day said “what if we drew funny shapes in clay and pretended the shapes are words?”. When the first human societies started accumulating reserves of food, lumber, domestic animals and materials and to exchange these with other groups of humans, keeping track of everything was becoming a problem. The first writing systems were invented as a way to solve that problem, they figured out that by associating each resource with a symbol they could easily keep track of what they had and how much of it they had.
The same logic apply to fascism. Fascism didn’t appear because some guy woke up one day and decided to be an asshole for no,reason. As the contradictions of capitalism worsened (contradictions are also a concept from dialectical materialism btw), peoples were becoming radicalized against capitalism and the bourgeoisie which created the threat of a potential revolution overthrowing capitalism, in order to protect capitalism from that threat, the petty bourgeoisie tried to hide the class struggle between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat by fabricating a fake struggle against a group of the proletariat (typically a “race”) that they could point to to divert attention from the class struggle.
This is what is meant in this context. Since liberalism is the main ideology of capitalism, when the contradictions of capitalism inevitably makes everything break down, liberals will either be radicalized to the left and stop being liberals, or defend capitalism to the end by slipping more and more to the right until they become indistinguishable from fascists.
Great explanation, thanks!
In this instance, the petty bourgeoisie are the Professional Managerial Class?
Petty Bourgeoisie are generally Capital Owners that must also work, and are proletarianized in competition with the actual Bourgeoisie. Think shop owners.
Yes but not only, small business owners, small landlords and “casual traders” who own some stocks but not enough to be considered rich or have influence in the company the stocks are from are also part of the petty bourgeoisie.
Generally, the petty bourgeoisie are peoples who technically own means of productions and may even have a few employee working for them, but don’t make quite enough from that to not have to work anymore. They are constantly under the threat of being out-competed by larger businesses, especially corporations owned by the high bourgeoisie, and becoming a proletarian.
Basically, they are the subclass at the boundary between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. They are better off than the proletariat and own means of production and private property but are under constant threat to lose these privileges and become part of the proletariat, especially in time of crisis.
They are the source of the overwhelming majority of fascists as I’ve said, because they still benefit from capitalism and generally aspire to become part of the high bourgeoisie even tough they are very much the underdogs. The bourgeois state will intentionally let fascism grow unopposed so that if the bourgeoisie feels their privileges are threatened by working class movements, they can give power to the fascists who will crackdown on the proletariat and protect the capitalist system from being overthrown.
Thanks for the detailed explanation
deleted by creator
If they’re exclusively supporting the right wing candidate, they’re not a centrist, then
Centrism within the context of an exclusively right-wing overton window is always going to functionally be right wing.
You can’t possibly make a reasonable argument that Kamala Harris is a fascist lmao
- Authoritarian: no
- Ultra-nationalist: no
- Forcible suppression of opposition: no
- Militarisation of society: no
- State controlled economy: no
I didn’t make that point, I said she is right-wing, and is running on the same foreign policy as Trump did 4 years ago, with her promising to build the wall and strengthen border patrol.
Either way:
Authoritarian
What do you mean by this? America isn’t a real democracy, if she supports the current system then I believe her to be authoritarian.
Ultra-nationalist
If you count Trump’s border policy from 2016-2020 as Ultra-Nationalist, she’s Ultra-Nationalist. She also wants the US military to be, and I quote from her speech at the DNC, as “the most lethal military in the world.”
Forcible suppression of opposition
Democrats kicked the Party for Socialism and Liberation off the ballot in Georgia already, so while we aren’t all the way there, signs of it are showing up
Militarisation of society
Not there yet, sure.
State controlled economy
Much of the US economy is state-controlled, it’s just that the US State is controlled by the Bourgeoisie.
Forcible suppression of opposition
Democrats kicked the Party for Socialism and Liberation off the ballot in Georgia already, so while we aren’t all the way there, signs of it are showing up
Don’t forget all the times they broke strikes, sent the cop beat up protesters, arrested peoples who spoke against Israel, etc…
Militarisation of society
Not there yet, sure.
Normalizing wars for resources and geopolitical influence, cohering poor peoples to join the army by having military service be the only way to not fall into decades long crippling debt to pay for college, continuing to throw more and more money at the military industrial complex even though they already give it more than the next 10 biggest military spending combined and justifying it with fearmongering about Russia/China/whatever country they don’t like invading them and their allies. They already seem pretty militaristic to me.
Normalizing wars for resources and geopolitical influence, cohering poor peoples to join the army by having military service be the only way to not fall into decades long crippling debt to pay for college, continuing to throw more and more money at the military industrial complex even though they already give it more than the next 10 biggest military spending combined and justifying it with fearmongering about Russia/China/whatever country they don’t like invading them and their allies. They already seem pretty militaristic to me.
Fair point that I agree with personally. I do believe Internal militarization is increasing over time, however.
how do people like this find there way here honestly
except she is for all those things except the last one which is self evident since fascists fucking love the shit out of the free market.
she is literally a fucking pig
she is amerikkkan and proud
literally head pig in california when the pigs where running people over in 2020
the amerikkkan empire is already so militarized that anything short of trying to scale it back counts
just because the other ghoul is even more of a fascists doesn’t make her not one.
The overton window shifted more left than right, unless said centrist lives in Turkey or Russia
What do you mean by that? Where is the Overton Window sliding to the left?
This is misleading. Most people do not actually know what Socialism or Communism are in the US (including people on Lemmy.world and other more liberalized instances) that think they know. What we are seeing is increasing polarization, fascism and Socialism are rising as a response to decaying Imperialism in the American Empire, as a consequence of decaying Capitalism.
Party-wise, the Democrats are running on the GOP platform of 4 years ago, while the GOP is running on overt fascism. American politics is more right-wing than ever before.
Under the asumption I am most people, can you give me the definition of socialism you prefer?
In addition to Cowbee’s comment, the Prolewiki article on Socialism expands on it.
Socialism is, put at the most simple statement, Worker Ownership of the Means of Production. It is also, more abstractly put, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat in a transitional status towards Communism.
People often confuse Capitalist governments doing stuff for Socialism, and Socialist governments retaining Capitalist elements as the entire system being Capitalist. It requires class analysis of who is in power.
Do you have a different idea, or is this in line with what you currently understand?
Anywhere that companies will cater to the left, why would they throw away profit otherwise? You’re the majority now and they’ll market accordingly
What do you think “left” means? Communists and Socialists are not the majority, nor are they being pandered to. Right-wingers like Liberals make up the majority.
You’re kidding me, by your definition I’m center right
Yes, you are, presuming you support Capitalism.
We can’t afford to stay neutral on a moving train.
Man, those guys get more relevant every year
deleted by creator
At this point, “centrist” is slang for, “I want to argue for what I believe in under the guise of being the ‘Devils advocate’”.
Fascists are ‘centrists’ regardless how it’s spun.
Aren’t there dedicated communities for political memes? I blocked those for a reason. Why is more and more politics bleeding over to here?
Everything is political, there is no such thing as a non-political meme.
Either way, there’s a comm for less political memes
I think like… Rocks aren’t political, until communities of humans arrive and start talking about rocks and using language to describe rocks. A rock that humans have never interacted with isn’t political, until people start using it as an example of what is and isn’t political. Sort of like quantum but for concepts and relationships being perceived by communities of people.
Why did I write this?
Rocks aren’t political
They are engaged in a billions years of unending (if slow) political geology conflict, with solution being games of scissor, rocks and paper, but with constant draws because they are rocks.
Rocks are dialectical when they bash against one another, just as I bash my head against every other leftist.
Clearly you need more paper to read.
I wish I had more time :(
Same :(
Politicize this.
Dialectically, the wizard class is fearful of the rising cryptid underclass.
Damn. Well done.
Thanks!
Soviets discovering Hitler’s burned up corpse, 1945, colorized
Don’t bring Zizek into this, let the lava buck skeleton talk.
the wizard class being fearfull of the rise of the burning skeletal deer fascists
deleted by creator
Let’s hear what a bunch of leftists who think that you can have a functional democracy when everyone thinks exactly the way they do lecture everyone on why political extremisn is a good idea,then start crying when they realize that the only way they can achieve their political paradise is for them to act like the very nazis they claim to despise
living the meme buddy
“leftists” just want their population to be fairly represented. The system that we have now gives significantly more power to people who live in the right places.
These places are all away from densely populated areas (which are, coincidentally, the areas that are contributing the most to our GDP, also where the highest wages are and thus where the biggest chunk of taxes are collected)
What we are well on our way to, is a tyranny of the minority, and you sound like you’re applauding it. As if that is somehow better for everyone than majority rule, or even the stalemate we have now.
Yeah, we want a functional democracy where not everyone, but at least the majority, thinks the same way…and also runs under the direction of a majority. You know, like a democracy should.
What we have now is a dysfunctional democracy…one which runs counter to what the majority are thinking.
I can’t tell if this is a liberal or conservative meme, since both sides call the other side fascist.
It’s a Communist meme. Liberals are correct when calling conervatives fascists, they just don’t realise that Liberalism supports the material conditions that result in fascism.
both sides
Which side are you on, exactly? I kind of doubt you’re a leftist if all you see is “liberal vs conservative.”Are you one of those pretentious “independents” that wants pretty much everything the conservatives want except you also like legal weed?
that’s not true, I bet they want/don’t want more than just conservatives, like roades
You can’t tell? Seriously? Conservatives only criticize one specific fascist party because it cynically used socialist in the name. If somebody is critiquing any other form of fascism, with the infrequent outside of WW2 obsessed Americans, exception of imperial Japan) it’s a safe heuristic to assume its form the left assuming no dog whistles are being blown.
and are the enlightened centrists in the room with us now?
Down below. Learn to read maybe?
Wingers both left and right need to get out of their bubbles. Wingers have no idea what their opposition believe. And attacking centrists is an silly approach to further you’re cause. They’re literally the people you should be engaging with instead of producing bubbled memes like this.
I know exactly what the right wing parties in my country want, that’s why I’m a left winger
You’re the meme.
lol lmao
okay loser, like I’m not already being bombarded by right-wing bullshit my whole life by the misfortune of being born Polish
shut up xD
by the misfortune of being born Polish
😭
No sory… Jest jak jest. 🫂
I’m sorry you have to live with being Polish 😔
Hey, it’s not all horrible.
At least I’m not an anglo 🏄♂️
