What is the point of this community, if we can’t have a discussion? I’ve been really disappointed with the ML stance on this war, and am not even allowed to publicly discuss my opinion in any existing ML community without my comment getting deleted.
This Rule : “No support nor defence of Ukraine, NATO or Western Imperialism” just encourages an echo chamber.
Really getting discouraged comrades. Do better.
Are you perhaps thinking that opposition to NATO is synonymous with support for Russia thus leading to this ‘echo chamber’ that you mentioned?
It seems to be the rule is fairly simple: we don’t want to see braindead pro-NATO posts and comments, or things like “I stand with Ukraine!” and other such things.
Marxists ought to have an understanding of the real complexity of the situation, and, through the combination of an anti-war, anti-imperialist, AND pro-socialist set of beliefs, critique and discuss from a more-or-less third perspective. As in not in favor of either side.
okay sorry, english is not my first language and i was just seeing a lot of support for Russia rather than just plain opposition to NATO. I also dislike the organization NATO, but do not think that being in opposition of it justifies what is happening in Ukraine
I agree with OP on several stances.
First, in a comment somewhere around here OP stated they might be experiencing a language barrier and possibly misunderstanding the narrative being passed around among Marxists online. Well I’m English is my native language and the countless memes and comments running amok portraying Putin and his armies as somehow or another based is concerning.
As OP states somewhere else around here, Putin is a multi-billionaire oligarch who has on several occasions held the title of richest man in Russia and who regularly jails and tortures Marxists in his dominion. His actions against women, LGBTQIA+, and ethnic minorities are the stuff of incel white supremacist wet dreams. Also while his conventional military doesn’t deploy often, his special forces do, and the war crimes they commit give CIA spooks butterflies in their putrid little bellies they are so heinous.
Putin is not based no matter what other cock he is fighting in the rooster ring.
Also, I saw another user comment that “Ukraine lost their right to sovereignty”. Sorry but who are you to decide when another peoples have lost their right to sovereignty? That is the kind of shit Imperialists say. Replace the word Ukraine with any other marginalized group and you’ll see my point. “Palestine lost their right to sovereignty when…”, “India lost its sovereignty when…”, “Indigenous lost their sovereignty when…”. Get my point? Foreigners don’t get to decide Ukrainian sovereignty. Not you. Not me. Not Putin. It is decided by the Ukrainian people collectively.
Yes, Ukraine has a serious Nazi problem, but if you believe Putin’s intention is to de-Nazify Ukraine, you’re gullible. And even if it were his intention, it isn’t his place to carry that out. It is for the Ukrainian people to do collectively.
And before you start accusing me of being pro-NATO, know that I fucking hate the United States and the idea of personally burning every single Amerikkkan flag and taking a reeking shit on the dismembered head of a statue of George Washington fills me with some of the greatest joy a human can experience outside of orgasm. I want nothing more than for the United States to become a failed state and for NATO to fall apart like a matchstick hut in a hurricane. The sanctions against the Russian people are disgusting and will result in massive amounts of suffering. So I vehemently oppose them.
This is a fight between Imperialists and domestic Nazis. Our solidarity should be with the working class people directly affected by this on all sides.
Fuck the oligarchs of the US. Fuck the oligarchs of Russia. Fuck the oligarchs of Ukraine. They can all burn but this war is only hurting the working class.
In solidarity,
- bleepingblorp
There’s not much good to support as far as Ukraine, NATO, or Western Imperialism goes. Obviously the fewer Ukrainians die the better. I’m not pro-Russia, but the rule doesn’t forbid that. What opinions in defence of NATO / Ukraine do you have that you think would get you banned?
in the end im worried that this war will only accomplish these things: many innocent dead, my birth country completely destroyed, neo-nazi groups all over the world (in the West and in the East) will become stronger, the suffering of Russian citizens due to sanctions and due to government actions such as (censorship, violence, jail time, cover ups via murder), increased Russian xenophobia, increased homelessness in Europe, increased prices in Europe, NATO getting stronger, broken Ukrainian families, broken Russian families, increased imperialism
i also think Russia is very against the marxist viewpoint in general, and the censorship happening along with the threat of prison time for speaking against the state is troubling to me, many of my Russian friends are trying to figure out how to leave right now before its completely impossible (even though it already is nearly impossible to leave)
also the language thing is not true, I do not know Ukrainian so I only speak Russian every time I visit and it’s never been an issue, in fact most people speak it back to me.
i also do not like that there are people who are virtue signaling by ignoring what is happening in Ukraine and instead start saying “lets save palestine, syria, etc.” …especially because a lot of these people have never before spoken up that much about these conflicts in the middle east/asia…this does not benefit those people in the countries in the middle east, these keyboard warriors as they are sometimes called are creating cognitive dissonance and pretending to be activists, only benefiting themselves to appear more moral than the rest of their peers. I think the best resources on this conflict are independent journalists who are right there on the frontlines or people like me with family in the country who are getting a direct POV of what is going on. Unfortunately, I’m not seeing a lot of that on most left-leaning forums right now, instead many sources are from large organizations that are biased towards one or the other
my homeland Crimea has been under sanctions for 8 years now. I will never forget February 22, 2014 when Putin marched his army into Crimea. It was Putin who brought Igor Gurkin’s army into Donbass, it was Putin who stealthily sent the Russian forces to Donbass in 2014. NATO is definitely to blame, but the bigger person to blame is Putin and his imperialistic ambitions. Ukrainians have spoken out again and again saying that WE DON’T WANT THIS, and Putin keep shutting everyone up and calling it a peace operation. Instead cities are burning, and my family that is still there has grown used to the air raid sirens
I am from Crimea and am pro-Ukraine and think that some facts here are being dismissed as ‘Western propaganda’. News are biased, but not everything is propaganda. I do not have any defense for NATO. But I do think Ukraine has a right to sovereignty.
So which leftist viewpoint upholds the concept of a capitalist state’s right to sovereignty?
Anarchists and MLs alike should support the people of Ukraine and Russia in resisting occupation by either state as both care not for their war dead and wounded but only for control of resources and power.
Btw I don’t think you should be banned for arguing this, it is important we critically listen to the ppl most directly affected by this, while being careful not to uncritically absorb ultranationalist or capitalist propaganda.
Ukraine lost its right to sovereignty with the 2014 Maidan coup d’etat. The leaked phone call between Victoria Nuland and Pyatt tells us this. Yanukovich was forced to flee, Porochenko was never elected.
the Maidan revolution was a good thing, im v confused what you mean, we stood up and overthrew our corrupt president and our country is very proud of this. This is what the Russian people need to do. Putin has served too many terms, nearly my whole life. I don’t know where you live, but I’m sure if someone said that your contry lost its right to sovereignty, you too would disagree.
What the actual fuck? Elected Yanukovich was forced to flee, whereas Porochenko was never elected… you prefer some unelected puppet?
I’m not sure you, as a non-Ukrainian, get to decide the sovereignty status of Ukrainians.
No, I have not decided it. Victoria Nuland decided it over a phone call from USA. She did it in 2014 with Pyatt.
The western narrative is to say that Ukraine, a country that’s infested by nazis and has been manipulated by the western powers, is innocent and worth defending against Russia. You don’t have to defend or even support Russia to see that the western narrative is nothing more than propaganda. We can have discussions about this, but we’re not going to get anywhere with discussions that just repeat the west’s ridiculous narrative.
