Workers at the University of Hong Kong (HKU) removed the Tiananmen Massacre monument late on Wednesday night, months after the university said the statue must be go. Photo: Supplied. Views of the a…
No matter what i think of a specific Nation-State, i think separatism should always be supported uncritically. That’s like Consent 101. In the name of what would you impose on people to be part of something they don’t want to be part of?!
Who cares if it’s China? In France many people aim for autonomy, too, in the colonized regions from Guadeloupe to Corse or Bretagne/Kanaky. If you pretend to support freedom for people/communities, then you should probably support these anti-colonial struggles too.
That’s a really naive view of the world. A small place like Hong Kong is never going to be independent in practice. So, it’s not a question of whether they’re independent from China, but rather whether they’re going to be under Chinese or western influence.
Meanwhile, it’s also absurd to homogenize people. The reality is that majority of people in HK aren’t exactly against China. There is also a long documented history of US being involved in the drive for separatism.
Depends what you call “independant”. Of course they’re not gonna be 100% resource-sufficient and that’s OK. But why would you have to choose under whose umbrella to hide? Can’t an independent nation conduct partnership and trade with “both” sides (or more)? I mean if in your view humanity requires choosing a side between different colonial Empires, i’d rather not live in this world.
I’m talking about politics. Most countries in the world have to deal with US in terms of funding politicians, spreading propaganda in the media, and economic coercion. Ultimately, when US doesn’t get what it wants then they will fund protests, civil unrest, death squads, and coups in your country. Many books have been written on this subject. The Jakarta Method is a very good read on what happens to countries that try to be independent.
There is no such animal as an independent nation in the real world that we live in. Whether you choose to engage with reality or not is of course your choice.
There’s a few semi-independent nations, although i agree colonial sabotage and psyops is definitely a thing. Whether you choose to continue with this imperialist status quo or not is of course your choice.
All nations fall under some larger umbrella in practice. Meanwhile, whether large nations are going act the way they act is not my choice at all actually. The only choice an individual has is to engage with the facts.
OK so if we agree there’s some things we’re powerless in regards to, can we agree we should live our lives regardless of their positions and not try to accommodate their tyrannical desires in the name of defending the lesser evil?
I think the misunderstanding comes from what the word means. Some people use it to designate the rule of someone else, as in the examples you mentioned. I personally advocate for autonomy (decentralized power) which also fits under that umbrella.
So yes, context matters. But consent matters even more so. I never consented to live under the rule of the French Empire and every day of my life i suffer due to that. The same is true with many people. In the name of what would you refuse us the right to build our own autonomous commune as is illegal by French law?
Reasoning with those in power does not work: those from the ZAD who tried to negotiate with the State ended up betraying/destroying the ZAD (it’s now all legalized and mostly populated by hipsters and bourgeois). Going all guerilla warfare on your government is a valid strategy, but arguably modern empires have become too resilient for that to work. Mounting a legal political party for your cause seems useless: even a formally-elected government like in Catalonia will get repressed by the State for trying to separate.
Yeah there’s a lot we can do and i guess both of us are involved in various projects AFK, but still when you boil it down to personal/communal consent, Nation States are always the enemy of the people.
I’m not morally opposed to “work from within” as long as you don’t become corrupted. I just don’t know of a single example of this strategy working to produce any significant change, but i do know many examples of people betraying their cause due to working within the system.
“In this case, your uncritical support for refusing sex is indistinguishable from uncritical support of rape”
Do you realize how horrible what you’re saying is? If my community doesn’t want to be part of your colonial Empire, just kill us already but don’t pretend we have a moral obligation to live by your rules.
So what? Did you read me defending western Empires? No. But i do read you defending the Chinese empire, and that worries me. If you want to build communism, the first step is to abolish all Nation States for they are bourgeois constructs controlling the people.
China has never denied it or covered it up. The only thing they’ve rejected are Anglo-imperialist attempts to foment further discord like the statue in the OP here. The original protests were NED-funded too.
So what did happen? A guy walked in front of a tank, which stopped for him and let him even climb on top without even being arrested (the video exists in full for you to confirm this). Imagine that happening at a 4th of July parade in amerikkka. CIA-fomented protestors killed unarmed members of the PLA sent in to disperse them. Again, imagine that happening in amerikkka.
BODIES AND WOUNDED, HOWEVER, BEGAN TO
ARRIVE AT THE RED CROSS STATION INDICATING THE EXTENT
OF THE FIGHTING AND THE FACT THAT REAL BULLETS WERE
BEING USED. (…) HE WATCHED THE MILITARY
ENTER THE SQUARE AND DID NOT OBSERVE ANY MASS FIRING
OF WEAPONS INTO THE CROWDS, ALTHOUGH SPORADIC GUNFIRE
WAS HEARD. (…) GALLO SAID WOUNDED,
INCLUDING SOME SOLDIERS, CONTINUED TO BE BROUGHT TO
THE RED CROSS STATION. (…) THEY CIRCLED THE RED CROSS STATION AND
BEGAN YELLING AND THROWING STICKS AND DEBRIS OVER THE
HEADS OF THE PEOPLE AT THE STATION. THE MEDICAL
PERSONNEL PANICKED AND FLED, LEAVING BEHIND THE
WOUNDED. (…) THE FEW THAT ATTEMPTED TO REMAIN BEHIND WERE
BEATEN AND DRIVEN TO JOIN THE END OF THE DEPARTING
PROCESSION. (…) THEREFORE, HE COULD NOT COMMENT ON
REPORTS THAT STUDENTS WERE AMBUSHED AND SLAUGHTERED
IN THE ALLEY JUST WEST OF THE SQUARE NEAR THE BEIJING
CONCERT HALL. (…) ALTHOUGH HE DID NOT ACTUALLY WITNESS
ANY LARGE SCALE SHOOTINGS ON THE SQUARE PROPER, GALLO
SAW MANY CASUALTIES BROUGHT INTO THE SQUARE AND DID
NOT DOUBT THAT HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE IN BEIJING WERE
KILLED BY THE ARMY ON JUNE 3 AND 4.
That’s not exactly what i call a denial of state violence.
For someone with (seemingly) Western values, you sure are against people having different opinions than you
I mean look, I even had a community on Lemmy.ml banned (/c/IsTaiwanACountry) because of its moderate anti-CCP stance and enough people complained. While that’s obviously BS on behalf of the Lemmy admins, it doesn’t immediately discredit everyone who got the community banned
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No matter what i think of a specific Nation-State, i think separatism should always be supported uncritically. That’s like Consent 101. In the name of what would you impose on people to be part of something they don’t want to be part of?!
Who cares if it’s China? In France many people aim for autonomy, too, in the colonized regions from Guadeloupe to Corse or Bretagne/Kanaky. If you pretend to support freedom for people/communities, then you should probably support these anti-colonial struggles too.
That’s a really naive view of the world. A small place like Hong Kong is never going to be independent in practice. So, it’s not a question of whether they’re independent from China, but rather whether they’re going to be under Chinese or western influence.
Meanwhile, it’s also absurd to homogenize people. The reality is that majority of people in HK aren’t exactly against China. There is also a long documented history of US being involved in the drive for separatism.
Depends what you call “independant”. Of course they’re not gonna be 100% resource-sufficient and that’s OK. But why would you have to choose under whose umbrella to hide? Can’t an independent nation conduct partnership and trade with “both” sides (or more)? I mean if in your view humanity requires choosing a side between different colonial Empires, i’d rather not live in this world.
I’m talking about politics. Most countries in the world have to deal with US in terms of funding politicians, spreading propaganda in the media, and economic coercion. Ultimately, when US doesn’t get what it wants then they will fund protests, civil unrest, death squads, and coups in your country. Many books have been written on this subject. The Jakarta Method is a very good read on what happens to countries that try to be independent.
There is no such animal as an independent nation in the real world that we live in. Whether you choose to engage with reality or not is of course your choice.
edit: spelling
There’s a few semi-independent nations, although i agree colonial sabotage and psyops is definitely a thing. Whether you choose to continue with this imperialist status quo or not is of course your choice.
All nations fall under some larger umbrella in practice. Meanwhile, whether large nations are going act the way they act is not my choice at all actually. The only choice an individual has is to engage with the facts.
OK so if we agree there’s some things we’re powerless in regards to, can we agree we should live our lives regardless of their positions and not try to accommodate their tyrannical desires in the name of defending the lesser evil?
Could you be specific what these tyrannical desires you’re referring to are?
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I think the misunderstanding comes from what the word means. Some people use it to designate the rule of someone else, as in the examples you mentioned. I personally advocate for autonomy (decentralized power) which also fits under that umbrella.
So yes, context matters. But consent matters even more so. I never consented to live under the rule of the French Empire and every day of my life i suffer due to that. The same is true with many people. In the name of what would you refuse us the right to build our own autonomous commune as is illegal by French law?
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Reasoning with those in power does not work: those from the ZAD who tried to negotiate with the State ended up betraying/destroying the ZAD (it’s now all legalized and mostly populated by hipsters and bourgeois). Going all guerilla warfare on your government is a valid strategy, but arguably modern empires have become too resilient for that to work. Mounting a legal political party for your cause seems useless: even a formally-elected government like in Catalonia will get repressed by the State for trying to separate.
Yeah there’s a lot we can do and i guess both of us are involved in various projects AFK, but still when you boil it down to personal/communal consent, Nation States are always the enemy of the people.
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I’m not morally opposed to “work from within” as long as you don’t become corrupted. I just don’t know of a single example of this strategy working to produce any significant change, but i do know many examples of people betraying their cause due to working within the system.
In this case, your uncritical support for separatism is indistinguishable from uncritical support for Anglo colonialism.
Uncritical support for repatriation from settler colonists and their collaborators.
“In this case, your uncritical support for refusing sex is indistinguishable from uncritical support of rape”
Do you realize how horrible what you’re saying is? If my community doesn’t want to be part of your colonial Empire, just kill us already but don’t pretend we have a moral obligation to live by your rules.
Do you realize pee pee poo poo?
The colonizers in this case are Anglo. You’re participating in an anglophone forum. Idgaf what you have to say about colonial empires.
So what? Did you read me defending western Empires? No. But i do read you defending the Chinese empire, and that worries me. If you want to build communism, the first step is to abolish all Nation States for they are bourgeois constructs controlling the people.
+10 social credit score
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+10 FICO score
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You’ve got it with the last one.
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A WaPo reporter disavowing what was published in their name.
China has never denied it or covered it up. The only thing they’ve rejected are Anglo-imperialist attempts to foment further discord like the statue in the OP here. The original protests were NED-funded too.
Wikileaks cables show that the US State Department knew what actually happened.
A leader of the protest acknowledges no protestors were killed.
So what did happen? A guy walked in front of a tank, which stopped for him and let him even climb on top without even being arrested (the video exists in full for you to confirm this). Imagine that happening at a 4th of July parade in amerikkka. CIA-fomented protestors killed unarmed members of the PLA sent in to disperse them. Again, imagine that happening in amerikkka.
Further reading.
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From your Wikileaks source:
That’s not exactly what i call a denial of state violence.
+5 social credit score
+100 fico score
Congrats! You’re now eligible to receive a $20 mail-in rebate on your monthly health insurance premiums.
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Funny to see people downvoting you without arguments while you made a great point.
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For someone with (seemingly) Western values, you sure are against people having different opinions than you
I mean look, I even had a community on Lemmy.ml banned (/c/IsTaiwanACountry) because of its moderate anti-CCP stance and enough people complained. While that’s obviously BS on behalf of the Lemmy admins, it doesn’t immediately discredit everyone who got the community banned