It’s not EV’s I’m skeptical of hey.
It’s the cars they are making. The evs are all quite expensive and then all new cars seem to be taking the opportunity to tack on all these extra subscriptions and such.
I’m never buying a car where heated seats are bound to my car app account on a subscription like seriously…
We need an open source electric car.
Many EV are just wasting too much energy for useless stuff. I love the dacia spring, it so reduced, that it only wights about 1000kg and still has about 200km (33kw motor and 29kw/h battery(my version))
Everyone who has ever reviewed the dacia spring recommends you stay the fuck away. It’s a cheap piece of crap, and a death-trap if you ever get in a car crash. Dacias consistently perform terribly in Euro-NCAP.
It is very efficient due to being cheap, yes (what does one expect buying a cheap car?), and is most likely a total wrack if involved in an accident, yes (had it once, luckily not my fault so got a new one for free, lol) So yea, if drive like a idiot and are likely involved in an accident, it may not be for you. It is the perfect car for me, because I live in a EV friendly country and I definitely want to drive electric and I don’t have a lot of money due to having a child since 4 years and being only 27 years old by now 😂
Bless your heart if you think this is limited to EVs.
Most of the car subscription items don’t bother me. Many are like cosmetic skins in game. The car still works well without them. Lets look at Tesla just because they are popular:
- Full Self Drive, one-time $20k - No way is this required. Skipped it.
- Enhanced Autopilot, one-time $6k - Auto lane change and vehicle summon in a parking lot. Car drives fine without it. Skipped
- Acceleration boost, one-time $2k - Without this the car 0-60MPH is 4.2 seconds. That’s PLENTY fast for me. Skipped
- Premium connectivity, recurring $10/month or $99/year - Gives you a web browser on the dash, photoview satellite images in navigation instead of line drawing, and lets you stream music from Slacker or stream your Netflix movies from the car cell radio. I don’t need any of that and have better choices for music. I can stream video from my phone when I’m stopped if I need to.
None of that stuff is required and the usability and features of the car are still really good.
Further, for many of those factory hardware locked features there are one-time aftermarket solutions to enable them from third parties, though I have never had the need or desire for those things.
Honestly it’s sort of the principle of it.
Like the car has it, it’s already cost the manufacturer to install it sure there are ongoing dev costs for some things, but not all.
On top of that many manufacturers are locking the features to the one person.
So for example I pay for heated seats. Then I sell the car, and the new owner has to “buy” heated seats again.
I’m sorry I’m not supporting that bullshit or the manufacturers who are doing this one bit even if I don’t pay for a feature.
On top of that there are issues with servicing and also forced firmware updates.
A friend was late to work the other day because his Tesla was doing an update when he tried to leave, like what happens if someone was trying to rush a partner to a hospital or something and you happen to jump in the car as it’s mid way through an update.
I want to be in control of the things I own and pay for, that’s the whole point of owning something. Car manufacturers these days seem to be under the delusion that they still own our vehicles and we are just the money sacks they are renting them to.
This has been going on for a while, but seem much much worse on the electric cars.
Also frankly the infrastructure isn’t there in many places around the world.
It’s not just waiting to charge the car that’s the issue, it’s waiting for the charger… when each vehicle takes up to 30min-an hour to get a meaningful amount of range back suddenly you need like 10x as many charging stations as you had petrol/diesel pumps.
And while this may be in place in some places in the world it’s not in most. Add this to the fact that charging points are often out of order well you start to see the issue.
Honestly it’s sort of the principle of it. Like the car has it, it’s already cost the manufacturer to install it sure there are ongoing dev costs for some things, but not all.
I know this isn’t an obvious point, but if you got the car how you wanted it, it would actually cost more for things you may not care about. The complaint then would be “why is the car so expensive? Why don’t they sell a more basic version?”
When a manufacture has to actually build different cars with different features at time of manufacture it drives up the costs for ALL models. They can’t easy substitution when market conditions change and could be stuck with only the premium versions which cost more. A great example of this is the Ford Lightning. There were as many as 12 different model/trim levels. One of the primary complaints of prospective buyers is only the premium priced versions were on dealership lots. This is what you get.
The car is cheaper with the addons disabled. If forced to sell with all addons enabled, the car would be much more expensive for things may people don’t care about.
So for example I pay for heated seats. Then I sell the car, and the new owner has to “buy” heated seats again.
I’m not understanding your argument here. If we’re talking Tesla, and you bought the $2k Acceleration Boost, if you sold the car to someone, that $2k feature would still be there. Who is removing paid enabled addons? Can you cite an example?
On top of that there are issues with servicing and also forced firmware updates.
Besides NTSB recall firmware updates, a you can make a Tesla not force a firmware update. It may nag though.
This isn’t something new though, its just the delivery. About 18 years ago, there was a Honda firmware that I DID NOT WANT INSTALLED. I had to take the Honda 2003 car to a Honda dealer for warranty work, and SPECIFICALLY TOLD THEM NOT TO INSTALL THAT FIRMWARE. They did anyway. So this is nothing new to EVs or even modern cars.
A friend was late to work the other day because his Tesla was doing an update when he tried to leave, like what happens if someone was trying to rush a partner to a hospital or something and you happen to jump in the car as it’s mid way through an update.
Your friend may not have told you the whole story.
A Tesla firmware will prompt you when it wants to install. It will tell you “this takes about 25 minutes to complete and the car will be unusable during that time”. You can choose to install it immediately by pressing the button when prompted, or set a time for it to wake the car and install it. Even if you accidentally say “install now” it gives you a 2 minute countdown on screen to cancel it. So your buddy either scheduled it to install 30 min before he was supposed to go to work, or he hit the button to install it, waited for the entire 2 minute cancellation period to expire and did nothing.
It’s not just waiting to charge the car that’s the issue, it’s waiting for the charger… when each vehicle takes up to 30min-an hour to get a meaningful amount of range back suddenly you need like 10x as many charging stations as you had petrol/diesel pumps.
You’re projecting for a problem that likely won’t happen in the scale you’re describing. Battery tech is evolving fast. Modern batteries can charge in a fraction of time of those even sold 3 years ago. This charging speed of battery as well as faster chargers look to be solving this.
Further, 80% of EV drivers charge at home. source Nearly 0% of petrol drivers refuel at home, so comparing the two isn’t equivalent.
No. The add ons are already installed. The car would not cost the manufacturer any more money. Turning on your pre-installed heated seat does not cost them any money. In fact it would have been cheaper to not install a blocking mechanism.
So now we have to pay for all this equipment on the car that we don’t want or need. We have to pay for their subscription mechanism that’s already in the car as well. And then if we did want to use a feature, we’d have to pay that subscription to turn it on.
That’s the definition of rent seeking behavior. They haven’t added any actual value for that second payment. They merely blocked you from using part of what you already bought until you paid them an arbitrary amount.
No. The add ons are already installed. The car would not cost the manufacturer any more money. Turning on your pre-installed heated seat does not cost them any money. In fact it would have been cheaper to not install a blocking mechanism.
Except those add ons wouldn’t be in the car if the OP got their way. If “its installed already turn it on for free” was the action, then manufacturers wouldn’t put those addons in. They’d have to create separate versions of the cars with, say, seat heaters and not instead. That doesn’t save you, the consumer, money. It makes it *more expensive for you because they now have to have separate production line options, inventory management, logistics, etc.
So now we have to pay for all this equipment on the car that we don’t want or need.
Except you’re NOT paying for it. Its in there, but the manufacturer REDUCED THE CAR COST TO YOU by disabling it.
We have to pay for their subscription mechanism that’s already in the car as well. And then if we did want to use a feature, we’d have to pay that subscription to turn it on.
I’ve seen third party workaround options for paid seat heaters. So no, you wouldn’t have to pay a subscription if you used those.
I’m sorry has the cost of a car gone down at any point? No? Then it’s not cheaper is it? It might be cheaper to make, but then if that’s true we’re paying for installed items plus an extra monopoly premium.
Which is called rent seeking behavior.
I’m sorry has the cost of a car gone down at any point?
This is a bad faith statement. You’re not an idiot and you’re well aware that thousands of different inputs raise or lower the overall price of a car including basic things like inflationary actions which have nothing to do with the components of the car, but result in prices increases of the car.
I could probably find an equally bad faith statement indeed showing the car being cheaper because of the prior increases in 2020 during the pandemic shortage, but I’m not going to find a misleading statement to back that up just to score “points”. Its not honest, and I"m not willing to do that.
If this is the level of conversation that we’re now at, I think we’ve reach the end of it being productive.
Have a nice day.
Ew. No, fuck tesla.
Sure fine, fuck tesla, but can you separate your feelings from Tesla for a moment to discuss the topic or do we need to shop for a brand that you are okay discussing that also has paid addon features before you contribute to the discussion?
That was my contribution to the discussion. Have a nice day!
You didn’t tell us about what you had for breakfast, the weather in your locality, or perhaps your current bathroom habits yet. Each would have been equal to your contribution to the conversation so far.
You missed the biggest flaw in all those arguments: “yet”.
None of that stuff is required… yet. It will. As soon as the subscription model catches on, it will be required.
Just look at: everywhere. How far did video streaming go from cable? Well, it’s not there… yet. But it’s going there.
Don’t think for a second this time will be different.
You missed the biggest flaw in all those arguments: “yet”.
I’m not going to have “slippery slope” arguments today. If they do those things you’re claiming they will then, I’ll argue with you (perhaps on your side) if they do.
How is that a slippery slope when we see how every other industries handled the same thing in the same way?
Because there’s nothing to discuss besides wild speculation. If they’re going to do “something” what is that “something”? Nobody knows because its a future undefined event. We CAN objectively discuss what exists today.
We know exactly what that something is. It is putting features that have been in cars for a long time (distance start or heating seats for example) behind a subscription. Some car manufacturers already tried that (BMW in 2022). There is no slippery slope here, it’s already happening.
First, thank you for giving a specific example. For this example, you can pay a third party $50 for a one-time unlock and not have a BMW subscription.
“The first approach has been to go to specialized companies that, for a one-time fee, will unlock the software-locked features. According to Slashgear, the U.K. tuner Litchfield Motors can unlock the features for under $50. It can also unlock the ability to show content on screens while the vehicle is moving. Slightly illegal, don’t you think?”
You, the buyer, benefit because BMW lowered the price of the car expecting to get seat heating for years. The person that lives exclusively in warm climate and will never use seat heating benefits because of the lower priced car.
The biggest issue here is there’s only one thing in that list I’d consider a subscription and that’s the data connectivity. Especially in a Tesla where there’s no option to have Android auto or apple carplay then the only ways you can stream audio would be through Bluetooth so no options to change anything other than skip and replay the songs in a playlist. I don’t particularly mind there being a one time cost for most of those features even though they’re ridiculously expensive but the worst of it is on Ford, GM and Stalantis.
Those 3 manufacturers (and maybe more? I’m not sure) have subscriptions for their self driving functions which are included in the car and already paid for. These functions are processed on the car so this is nothing more than a digital lock to features that are already included in the car price.
Especially in a Tesla where there’s no option to have Android auto or apple carplay then the only ways you can stream audio would be through Bluetooth so no options to change anything other than skip and replay the songs in a playlist.
You can use your phone as a hotspot if you subscribe to Tidal or Spotify without any Tesla connectivity. You can also subscribe to SiriusXM and not have any Tesla connectivity.
Can tell you’re in your 20s.
Your detector needs calibration then.
Irrespective of that, may I ask you to address the message instead of the messenger? What part of what I posted do you disagree with? I’m open to discussion and interested in your opinions if we can be civil with one another.
Just so you know, you can do Spotify and Tidal now with premium connectivity, too. Tidal is basically the only reason I have it, because the speakers are good enough for the sound quality difference to be noticeable. I agree with the rest of your points, though.
You could still use Spotify, Tidal, and Netflix on the Tesla screen/speakers without premium connectivity if you use your phone as a hotspot. The car will automatically try to attach to any wifi AP its aware of. You could enable it each time you get in the car or if you want it automatic you’d just need a trigger on your phone to enable hotspot when you get in. Perhaps an NFC tag in the cell phone tray?
So even with those you don’t need to pay for a Tesla subscription.
Yeah but one of the reasons to pay for Tidal is the sound quality, and bluetooth sounds objectively worse than streaming directly on the car. Also, how am I supposed to maintain a wifi connection while moving? I’m not about to tether my phone every time I get in the car.
I’m not suggesting bluetooth. I’m talking tethering.
I’m not about to tether my phone every time I get in the car.
If its automatic, what is your objection to enabling tethering when you get in the car?
I mean wifi tethering. Sure, I could set up Tasker to turn it on once it detects that I’m in the car, but I’d personally rather save myself the effort.
The alternative is paying monthly for a data connection in the car. I’d prefer not to do that, but thats simply my preference.
I refuse to believe you are a real person. Maybe a masterful troll. This statement is bottom of the barrel levels dumb.
I’m not a troll. Are you interested in discussing your opposing position or just crapping on mine and walking away?
If my first post was too wordy my thesis boils down to this: At least in Tesla, which is the only one I have first hand knowledge of, the paid addons are not required. If others want to buy them, they’re welcome to, but I’m not and the resulting experience of the car I’m quite satisfied with. If you read a number of the replies from others, they’re trying to make my position something it isn’t and then knocking down that strawman.
Most of the car subscription items don’t bother me. Many are like cosmetic skins in game.
I am not wasting my time other than to argue over this position. Anything else take up with anyone else, not me specifically. What I’ve quoted is a stupid position that relys for us consumers to overly rely on the car manufacturers. If tesla wants to strictly lease cars that is their right but if you are selling me a car as a service be explict. If you are selling me a car you are selling me a car with complete functioning features. I cannot depend on a company to last forever. When it tanks and my car bricks, that is unacceptable risk for buyers. Do not capitulate to the auto manufacturers. Its a brain dead mistake and no amount of corporate cup and ball games will make me change my mind.
I cannot depend on your company to last forever and when it tanks my car bricks and that is unacceptable risk on a buyers behalf.
I’m not aware of any core features for functionality that would stop working if the company tanks. The only re-occurring subscription with Tesla is the premium connectivity which the web browser and internet streaming music services.
Do you have the expectation that automobile manufacturers should be required to provide a free internet service in perpetuity for purchasing a car?
What part of the car do you believe stops working if the company tanks?
This is the end game of add-on services. This is the end game of subscription based service. Transfer all the liability to the customer and put them on subscription based services. Buy our cars, now featuring enshitificstion.
This is the end game of add-on services. This is the end game of subscription based service.
It sounds like you’re speaking about a possible future of where this could go, and not what is today with Tesla at least. Since the only subscription on Tesla is the optional premium connectivity, Tesla isn’t the start of that. Your complaint is with General Motors with its Onstar service started 28 years ago. source. Just like GM Onstar, the Tesla car still works fine without that subscription.
Transfer the liability to the customer and put them on subscription based services.
Which liability are you talking about?
You didn’t answer my clarifying question about your statement of how the car would be bricked if the company goes under.
“Gas is a little more convenient, so lets destroy our sole, shared, communal ecosystem we all rely on from one breath to the next so I don’t have to wait for my car to charge.”
Oh humans, don’t ever change. For Earth’s long-term sake, we need to make sure we commit to our species’ mass suicide for short term profit and convenience. No half measures.
I mean its the same reason that EVs were considered before public transit.
Convenience over an actual solution, every time.
Most of US mass transit isn’t an option as the Gov. didn’t plan for it and have no intention of ever funding any but a token to assure workers have to pack lick sardines.
They won’t fund it because we aren’t a society, just a bunch of rugged individuals at each other’s throats over green paper scraps.
This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movement of small green pieces of paper, which was odd because on the whole it wasn’t the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.
Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was ‘Oh no, not again’. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.
I would argue that moving to evs puts the cost burdens on companies and consumers where a functioning public transit system would cost a shit ton and only be able to occur by taxing people which people won’t vote for.
Also when I went on a walk today while visiting my mother, I knocked on a neighbors door to let them know their hazard lights were on in the driveway. I didn’t want their battery to die so I went to door. They wouldn’t even open the door while clearly being able to see my mother standing behind me who lives a few doors down. I had to speak through the door to tell her. That older lady will never take public transit with all the fear we have engrained into the public.
I think combining both makes sense: Usually I use the bike or public transit to get around. But today I rented an EV from a local rideshare company (Skoda Enyaq iV80 4x4) because we had to move an entire rack of equipment between two cities for work.
I can decide to buy an EV, and it will work with what I have available to give me essentially the same functionality as a gasoline car, but easier on the environment and more convenient to charge at home.
Transit requires a majority of the population and political leaders to decide, huge amounts of money and many years. I have very little say in it happening and it won’t happen for years
Transportation is a tiny fraction of carbon emissions. And EVs are a small improvement within that. Regulations and investment into things that matter are the only way out of this problem.
Transportation is 28% of GHG emissions. EVs are a huge improvement even before we add more clean energy on the grid.
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions
yeah because the solution is not for us all to individually get a less energy demanding car. its a collective change in our ways, humane public transport.
Wrong. We want affordable EVs, ideally not not sold by an openly fascist billionaire eternally-divorced childmanboy.
My first complaint with Tesla is the shit tablet for everything. I don’t want to have to look at a screen while trying to drive. Elon is a shit but every publicly traded company is going to be owned in some regard by a billionaire fascist.
The only thing worse for adoption than only selling high priced EVs, is attempting to sell high priced EVs when interest rates are high.
Plus, no one ever talks about the switchover to NACS plugs in the US. Except for Tesla, most companies have announced they will switch plugs on a year or two. I hear “in a year or two these old ones will be difficult to charge and lose all its resale value”, so why would I buy?
I plan on waiting for NACS myself, but they do have adapters coming to use Tesla chargers on current non-NACS EVs. Some will provide them for free to recent owners.
In Ireland the Tesla chargers have both plugs. The NACS is already attached to a CCS plug in the charger. Depending on the car it releases the combo plug or just the NACS plus. Cool mechanism.
It’s more parts that you must bring with you. Also adapters always break and give you compatibility headaches… They should retrofit the port on the car for a nominal fee (say 5 hours of labour).
Actually it’s just pessimism of the likes of Mercedes-Benz. I’m not going to buy an expensive electrical car in the same way I’m not going to buy an expensive ICE car.
Make cheap electrical cars and we can talk.
Very true. VW had a really cheap one, and it sold out immediately. Still removed it for no reason.
MONEY
Volvo is bringing a 36k one to market this summer. While that’s still very expensive it’s less expensive than the average of 50k (45k with rebates) you see from domestic manufacturers.
If they manage to dodge the inevitable court case for selling at a loss and make it stick we should see more stuff like the Chevy Bolt.
There’s a cheat code out there right now: Toyota bz4x. At full price, they’re not a very good option. There’s plenty with better range and charge time. They also fucked up some of the features, like one pedal driving.
However, first year depreciation is hitting them hard, and then they look much better. So much off that the downsides can be overlooked.
Haha, those things are like 15k off. I wonder what the hell happened there?
Bad range, bad charge time, a bunch of little things that aren’t up to snuff. Toyota didn’t half-ass it as much as the Mazda CX-30 (which should go on the Wikipedia page for “Minimal Effort”), but it’s not great.
Once depreciation hits, though, it’s suddenly looking good.
That’s just hilarious. Enshittification really is coming for cars.
How’s BYD going? They seem unstoppable
Non-existent in the US thanks to whack-ass tariffs unfortunately. We love hindering our adoption of climate change reducing technology for political points.
How about you make one that doesn’t cost 30k more than a normal car… gees.
You make an excellent point!
I expect electric will soon be much cheaper than gas cars. Battery prices are still falling, despite the demand outpacing supply. Lithium refineries and mines are in the works and should be online in 5 years.
More importantly, electric cars are much simpler than gas cars. Anyone saying otherwise has no appreciation for the genius behind modern motors, transmissions, traction control and exhaust systems. There are an order of magnitude the number of moving parts in a combustion engine than an electric motor.
The price is higher because of the still-young supply chain for batteries and the infantile production lines for EVs.
It will become a subscription business with EULA.
It should really replace this petrol powered junk but this is what ultimately happens with such suits in charge. Do you think people will choose better? How many Fairphones or Linux desktops have you seen in real life? They choose slavery.
Speaking of slavery, China does make better cars with great price. I just wonder how many gigabyte per month these cars send to China? So it’s either future Mercedes car with Apple carOS coming with subscription or Chinese spycar. Make your choice.
Or choose community/cycle transport, something better fit to 2024.
That is definitely where the corporations are trying to push everyone, but that has nothing to do with electric powertrain cars and everything to do with capitalism powered enshittification.
I do know one person that uses their fairphone to access their self-hosted services on their raspberry pi and uses their Linux daily driver to make money and browse the web.
They also encourage people to reject surveillence capitalism, to do what they can for our ecosystem and to join the fediverse to help stop the slide into the new feudalism.
“It’s all nothing until it’s everything. Starting where I am, doing what I can.” -Knower
Their EV is about $8k more than a similar MB ICE SUV. Seems to be they just want to keep making easy money off innovating pay walls for remote start.
Have you not seen what geely are doing?
I haven’t. Whatre they doing?
I haven’t. Whatre they doing?
Probably because they are far more complicated than a regular car and have expensive batteries with precious metals? Oh and we haven’t been mass producing them for 100 years either.
An EV is on all fronts more simple. It’s the reason so many new car companies are being started.
It absolutely has an upfront cost to design and ramp up production though.
Bro it’s just a battery, some motors, a computer, an IO system, and some brakes. An amateur with money and free time could rip the guts out of a traditional car and make it fully electric by following an online tutorial.
No. No, they are not more complicated.
You can learn to build your own brushless motor on YouTube that’s close to as good as anything the major manufacturers are using. You’d need a whole machine shop to build an ICE, and it’s not going to be nearly as good as a crate engine from a company that dumped billions of dollars into R&D.
Battery chemistry is complicated, but you can buy the modules and build a pack yourself. There’s quite a bit of safety knowledge that goes into this so you don’t burn your house down, but it’s all out there.
Even if you bought all the major components and dropped them into a rolling chassis, an EV would be significantly easier to build than an ICE. It’s not even close.
Toyota say they can make 90 hybrids using the same raw materials as one BEV or six PHEVs, leading to a 37-fold reduction in lifetime carbon emissions .
There’s the rub. ‘The market’ is demanding EVs with massive range-per-charge, leading to huuuge batteries (of which only 10% capacity is used, most of the time) and high prices. It’s all a bit crazy.
I’m very skeptical of anything Toyota says about EVs.
Toyota Rav4 PHEV 18.1kWh Toyota Rav4 Hybrid ~1.6kWh Model Y LR 81kWh
81 / 18.1 = 4.48 PHEV 81 / 1.6 = 50.6 Hybrids
90 hybrids using the same raw materials as one BEV or six PHEVs
** for one material, compared to one battery chemistry, for hypothetical vehicles
Did you catch the news a week or so ago about mining and ore processors shutting down because they got ahead of EV demand
Edit: fix auto-correct
Yes, I’m sure Toyota is massaging that statistic heavily. They are all about hybrids.
They are all about hybrids.
Truthfully, Toyota is all about ICE. They’re okay with hybrids because hybrids still contain an ICE. For Toyota there’s a good reason for this. They make a damn good ICE engine! They’ve spent decades and billions of dollars on refining efficiency of gasoline into motion, and into very long run times of those ICE engines for reliability. However, that also means cars without and ICE, like EVs are a threat to the ICE empire Toyota has spent its life building.
They have a history of actively working against EVs and even using their influence and money to affect public policy in government:
“Toyota has been lobbying governments to water-down emissions standards or oppose fossil-fuel vehicle phaseouts, according to a New York Times report. In the last four years, Toyota’s political contributions to US politicians and PACs have more than doubled. Those contributions have gotten the company into hot water, too. By donating to congresspeople who oppose tighter emissions limits, the company funded lawmakers who objected to certifying the results of the 2020 presidential election. Though Toyota had promised to stop doing so in January, it was caught making donations to the controversial legislators as recently as last month.” source
So Toyota is no friend of EVs.
That’s because nobody could have foreseen that early adopters are willing to pay a premium price and it’s not an unlimited market
Please tell me you’re being sarcastic?
The market wants more Chevy Bolts. They didn’t have a 200 mile range. The market wants them so badly that GM unkilled the production line.
Of course they’re on the same EV platform as all of the other GM BEVs that’s a lemon lottery.
Volvo is going to beat the pants off this market with their 36k EV. Assuming of course our government doesn’t swoop in to protect GM and Ford.
Because protecting American car makers has worked so well the last time they tried…
Well somebody has to be the dumping ground for the oldest, least efficient, engines still in inventory. But yeah we don’t even have a robust domestic market to protect anymore. It’s effectively a triad.
This is really sad. Their ambition should be to be leading innovators and build the best possible EVs and not just give up.
They never wanted to innovate. They have entire warehouses full of IC engines and related parts. It’s far cheaper to just slap those together.
IIRC, Mercedes also keeps making parts for all of their vehicles. Even all the classics.
I don’t think that is true. Big companies consist of many people. There are Mercedes people who want to be on the leading edge but they need support from management.
Well yeah. But they aren’t in charge are they?
My doubt about electric vehicles is based on my doubt that the automotive industry will produce a quality product at a reasonable price. They’re no different than any other short-term profit based business.
I agree. They seem to put everything in the cars and sell them as luxury EVs. Give me a basic car for $15k.
My doubt is based on the fact that public transportation and bicycle infrastructure is the obvious better and more environmentally economical solution for the majority of the population that lives in cities.
I say this as a gear head, do we really want people on the roads that don’t want to be driving? It should be a choice, not a requirement. Plus, driving in cities sucks.
Cycling, an activity for those that wish to be killed by a monster truck.
That’s why I said cycling infrastructure
I’m really optimistic about electric vehicles, I don’t know what you’re talking about. LOL.
Are you still optimistic after looking at the price of a Mercedes EV?
I never buy new so I don’t personally care. There will be a guy selling it on Craigslist in a few years and I will buy it from him. Thus my optimism.
Where are you going to buy your replacement battery?
Temu? Seriously not a big issue for me personally. I literally did battery vehicle integrations for about 10 years. But yeah, others are going to need more battery techs or integrators etc. today’s mechanics will need to stretch again from ICE experts to battery integration experts. My guess is that it will be a good 10 years of tech transition. Meantime the political assholes with their worthless shit filled skulls will need cow prodding to get them to require battery standardization. So long as the size of the battery can come in predictable modules, then car makers can design around that and the dream of interchangeable battery systems could be realized…like it could be a standard voltage and amperage with variable capacity but constant volume/shape, connectors, interface signals etc. When all those dominoes fall in place it will be like when cars started to look similar… R13 tires for example with standard lug locations can be used in many different cars from many makers and many model years. I hope it goes eventually happens. Then also recyclability needs plenty of work. The current batteries are not that bad. They are mostly carbon after all.
Where are you going to buy your replacement gasoline engine and transmission? The previous owner decided that oil change intervals were more of a guideline anyway. One big win in buying a used EV is that maintenance is minimal, so there’s less worry about how the previous owner treated the car.
I promise replacing your drivetrain at 200k is going to cost more than a battery pack.
I can get an aftermarket LiFePo battery replacement for my prius for 1/10th the cost of an OEM. It’s just a bunch of laptop batteries in a box, it really doesn’t have to be super expensive. As adoption grows aftermarket battery replacements will plummet in price.
Oh well, I changed a few years back transmission for my bmw. I bought a rebuilt one which cost 1000 euros and the shop asked 1000 euros for the work. I think there arent really prices put yet for example MB batteries as theyre still under warranty? But I’d take a guess that battery pack would be a bit more expensive.
The price in the US for a rebuilt transmission plus swap on a BMW is about $5000. So I guess it depends on location.
That’s the way it should be but it’s not. There’s been a few people with Ioniq 5s in Canada who are getting quoted at $60+k for a replacement battery pack. That’s more than the original car I think.
Honestly curious as to why this got downvoted?
Edit: Typo (“Damn you voice to text!” /shakesfistinair)
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Where are you going to buy your replacement battery?
Honestly curious as to why this got
downloadeddownvoted?Because it’s a short and moronic thought.
What’s wrong with short, if it gets to the point?
What’s moronic about it?
The reason I want to know is because no one ever talks about when those batteries wear out at ~ 100,000 miles and you have to replace them, and the thousands of dollars it cost to do so, and if that cost is considered into the purchase price, and if there are better/worst places to buy replacement batteries at.
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Because the overwhelming majority won’t wear out at 100k miles. ICE cars have engine failures early as well, so why are we picking on EVs? I just had to put my car in the dumpster at 112k because the head gasket failed and replacing it would cost 6 fucking thousand dollars!
Meanwhile my wife’s Prius has 300k on it and the battery is still at 70% capacity.
Mercedes has never been affordable, regardless of ICE or electric. It’s a car for the upper-middle class who want to pretend to be rich
Go to Europe, they are everywhere
Ever seen a Mercedes A class? I don’t think anyone pretending to be rich drove those, at least the older models from the early 2000s.
Wish they would take the hybrid model and flip it. I love my gas/EV hybrid but the EV side of things is only good for 50miles or so. Its much more a gas vehicle really than an EV. Why not a primarily EV vehicle with large battery and a small gas generator for those Oh crap, I need another 50-100 miles right now with no time to charge moments?
Because you waste a lot energy transporting a heavy mostly useless gas tank and motor. In the other hand, if gas is main motor, you can use the battery / EV motor to get brake energy back and accelerate faster.
Yeah, seems like there could be a point where the gas engine sufficient to generate an emergency charge could be small enough that the impact while non negligible would be worth the elimination of battery fear. The tank could be empty most of the time and just available for a quick gas station fill if on a long trip and battery prediction is insufficient to reach the destination. Alternatively fast capacitor charges or a small swappable emergency battery that gas stations could carry for evs seem like systemic changes that could help with this issue.
Because 90% of the time 50 miles is enough for you (maybe not you, but most people) to get through the day and charge it, while you will only need gas on those long occasional trips.
People keep saying this, but when I’m buying a 40k car I want to be able to go shopping and cross country with my family. The fact that I’ll only use it for the occasional family trip is irrelevant. The point is my current ICE car does both things without any worry. If EVs want to win they need to be better than the ICE counterparts.
I want to reduce emissions but you’ll never get adoption of something that’s objectively worse. If I have to worry if it will start in the winter or reach the next town on my trip, it’s a non-starter. And that’s even before we get to the insane prices of new cars.
Yes
Meanwhile BYD is absolutely exploding in popularity. The problem isn’t “EV pessimism” it’s that some governments are fighting it so hard that it’s difficult out for citizens (USA) to make it work. Didn’t Biden promise a network of EV chargers across the nation?
And instead he made it illegal to import affordable Chinese cars. I’m sick of seeing articles phrased like this
Did Biden forget which about the magic wands, which you obviously know all about, that cause charge stations to spontaneously appear?
I mean, the first of the ones funded went into operation in December of 2023, which was the earliest it could as that is when funding was available and enough time had passed to get it permitted and installed, but wave the damned wand!!! demands internet padme. /sIn case anyone wants to know what is really going on with the EV charge stations;
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/first-ev-charging-station-funded-by-bidens-infrastructure-law-goes-online-2023-12-11/
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/biden-pours-623-million-into-ev-charging-void/Okay. He still handcuffed the EV market itself. To which the American companies have suddenly decided they can spend a few more years dumping their last ICE engines here.
Nope, not even close. Reality is that doing things with oversight takes time. Writing grant guidelines and requirements takes time. Reviewing bids, or whatever mechanism is chosen to allocate the very finite pool of money takes time. Adherence to financial regulations, as any Gov. program must, takes time. Permitting takes time. Construction contracting takes time. Construction takes time. And, oh look a year later and the charge stations are appearing.
Meeting the “instant gratification” crowd’s expectations is how you lose most of the funding to waste and fraud.It’s not about the charging stations. That’s what the other commenter was talking about. He made foreign EVs prohibitively expensive and domestic companies are shitting the bed. So your choice is a domestic EV that has quality control problems and is still the cost of a high trim ICE car, or pay luxury car price just to get a competent EV.
Or you can buy a very reliable ICE car for half the price.
Thus he handcuffed the EV market by artificially subjecting it to monopoly forces. Now everyone is suddenly wondering what went wrong like we’re all blind.
Not a whiff of truth to any of that.
Go read the IRA. Look up what’s eligible for the rebates now versus before.
Go read the the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act and catch up to reality.
there’s a lot of abbreviations in the article that I don’t understand or know lol. what’s a BEV? HPEV? etc.
Good article tho. From my limited view prices definitely are a huge limiting factor for electric vehicles, though they brought up a good point about the charge times. I guess if people treated it like their phones (charge every night) then it wouldn’t be a problem?
Honestly not surprised that demand has dropped for them though. Anyone who was interested in it has either decided it’s not worth it or already has one. Price puts them out of most people’s budget, and with rising costs and stagnant wages, people can’t really afford to take on monthly payments anymore. The environmental friendliness of them is heavily marketed, but won’t bring into effect the large scale, immediate change we need to slow climate change. Plus there’s the whole Tesla thing with delayed shipping and paywalling features built into software (admittedly not up to brush with Tesla tho).
For a while they were a new, impressive technology, and while I still think they’re cool, until they become very, very cheap and accessible, I won’t be getting one. The fad is starting to die out.
BEV?
BatteryElectricVehicle
HPEV
HybridPluginElectricVehicle
PHEV , plug in hybrid electric vehicle.
Should I’ve written [sic] next to it?
I’ve never understood what [sic] actually means… I am ignorant
it means the one citing did not fix any errors in grammar or spelling. it is cited just as it was written or said.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic
The Latin adverb sic (pronounced [sɪk]; “thus”, “just as”; in full: sic erat scriptum, “thus was it written”)[1]
Got it. Thank you!
Yes completely agree. Especially the price, most people don’t want to pay or can’t afford a 45-50k usd car after subsidies. (This is the minimum pricepoint to get something comparable to an average gas car, both trim wise and to get an at least acceptable range)
And let’s be honest about the subsidies, they just allow the car companies to charge a higher price in the first place… I expect the price to be about the same after they are gone.
Got a Chevy Bolt EUV for 31K
Ok thats a good deal. Exception to the rule 😅 Sadly it is discontinued since the end of 2023.
yup. But it proves the whole cost issue is corporate BS greed. Much like GM’s new “no android auto or carplay” infotainment to force onstar subscription plan.
My biggest EV doubt is that everyone living in a condo/apartment doesn’t have the option to install charging ports in their own parking space, so plug-in EVs are a terrible option ATM. I’ll get on board when I see the change happen but knowing landlords I’m doubtful.
I think we need street lighting with charging points.
Where I live, this is changing already. I suspect it comes down to your lawmakers and how you vote more than landlords. Landlords will never do something unless it makes them easy money. Though, ev chargers can be profitable, so maybe they are just dumb.
Not to mention the infrastructure upgrades it would take to mass-install enough plugs in every condo
A big part of why the tesla plug was chosen as the north american standard plug is the lack of infrastructure upgrades needed. Apparently it uses exactly 1 phase of a commercial electric line so it needs far less infrastructure to add charging if there is commercial electric already. For example they’d be able to install just an outlet on every streetlight.
You don’t need one for every condo. Though that would be awesome. It’s not like you need to charge every day.
Someone more educated, please explain to me, why it’s impossible to just take the existing industry, take all the know how and engineering and direct efforts into electrifying (converting) existing cars instead of building new ones.
If the world was perfect and there was no nuance, no bad actors, no human factor involved - would it be a viable solution to cut back on the emissions without getting rid of the comfort that a car affords?
You’d need to gut the car completely and rebuild it, it would be more work than starting from scratch.
When you mass-manufacture things, they’re made in a very specific way using a very specific amount of material in a very specific size and shape in a very specific spot in order to accommodate the exact stuff that goes into the final product.
This is sort of true in theory but in the reality of vehicle powertrains it’s not an issue.
As far as I’ve seen with EV’s, it’s especially true. Their configurations are usually wildly different from gas cars.
Yes… They are wildly different…
…And the drive setups fit well in gas cars.Engines, transmissions, and fuel tanks take up a lot of room. People have been mounting electric motors in cars and stuffing them with batteries for decades.
Some people even leave the whole subframe from a Tesla complete and mount it directly under a car. Obviously different cars are able to accept different solutions.
Recall that we are not talking about EV cars but converting gas cars to EV.
First, EVs don’t have powertrains…
Who is talking about EV powertrains?
You can absolutely and fairly easily convert pretty much any car to electric power. It’s been done a thousand times.
But that doesn’t make anybody any money.
But that doesn’t make anybody any money.
Of course it does, there’s a shitload of parts that needs to be sourced, and most people will need someone to perform the conversion. There’s a substatial amount of money changing hands in that kind of rebuild.
The bigger issue is getting the car approved for public roads after the rebuild. Depending on the country, that is nearly (if not entirely) impossible.
I think it’s extremely unlikely. Very, very few modification shops make any money at all. Let alone on modifications that are prohibitively expensive and have an extremely niche market such as gas to EV conversions.
The industry did that during the “compliance” era where they had to hit emissions targets in places like California. The cars were much heavier and didn’t go as far as current EVs. A lot of vestigial metal designed to hold parts that weren’t present in the EV version. A lot less space for batteries since the car was designed for a different layout (gas tanks, engine parts, transmissions).
There are cheap EVs in other markets like Europe. The VW ID3 is a good example. They aren’t shipped here because the industry believes that Americans only want SUVs and giant trucks. This is a problem that plagues combustion cars as well. Ford completely stopped shipping sedans in the US, and companies like Mazda no longer ship smaller trucks in the states.
To which cars are you comparing the vw id3? In Germany, the cheapest settings will result in a price of 40.000€ which is expensive for my taste. But I don’t have a clue about the us ev market.
I am “the other market” haha. But even in Europe it’s mostly Tesla’s that you see. At least in the parts that I’ve lived in.
The American truck culture is weird to me.
