• Sanctus@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    The idea that you should put complete freedom above all else has been a disaster for the human race. No, you cannot do whatever you want. No, it does not mean you are a prisoner.

            • Tak
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              5 months ago

              Lol “anarchistic country” If a people were ever to have anarchy it would require there be no country. You’re like asking them to find an incel that isn’t a misogynist

              • MrFunnyMoustache
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                5 months ago

                Technically you can have an incel who isn’t a misogynist. Incel just means involuntarily celibate, most incels are misogynists, but some aren’t, and just don’t talk to people at all because of other mental health issues that don’t get treated making that person completely solitary and unable to communicate with others.

                The term incel was coined by a woman who has been involuntarily celibate and saught to create a supportive community for people like her. The problem arrose later.

                Edit: Spelling.

                • Tak
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                  5 months ago

                  Good point. I didn’t know the background or history of the word.

          • stevehobbes@lemy.lol
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            5 months ago

            Anarchists are basically our version of libertarians. There’s no internal consistency and the vast majority of ideas or arguments don’t survive even a cursory examination.

            It requires humans to behave in a fundamentally different manner than every bit of recorded human history has shown us. It’s a reality that doesn’t, and with all available evidence, can’t exist.

            • Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de
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              5 months ago

              I am not an anarchist and I won’t make their case, but there is a difference between what is and what ought to be. What people have done is a statement about what is. Anarchy, like any other idealogy like it, is about what ought to be.

        • 🐑🇸 🇭 🇪 🇪 🇵 🇱 🇪🐑@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Free to be poor (Includes: Threat of starvation, social shunning, homelessness, your entire life collapsing and you can be sure the state is still gonna put you into even more debt. Then put you into prison because you couldn’t pay up where you are coerced into slave labor)

      • Sanctus@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        The Human OS is not ready to be without borders unfortunately. One day, after the last smog-filled breath of air is forcefully exhumed, and all the world’s treasures fail the last baron of wealth, we will be ready. As long as our hearts are wholly material, the world will stay the same.

        • OurToothbrush
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          5 months ago

          We literally didn’t have borders as they exist today until a century ago lmao, they literally solidified around the formation of what we consider modern nation-states.

          The human os isn’t ready for a borderless world my entire ass, the issue is the systems currently in place.

          • stevehobbes@lemy.lol
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            5 months ago

            Humans have built societies with rules for forever.

            And banish people outside their society.

            I’m not an expert on the theory of all of this, but it seems entirely dubious that anarchy could function in any environment for long.

            • NotJustForMe
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              5 months ago

              A light form was tribalism. If you didn’t go with the flow, you were expelled. With enough expelled ones, new tribes were formed. It kinda created human diversity for a while. There was only so much room on the river, so at some point more elaborate systems emerged. And the people with the biggest huts made those rules. Rules were made so that they could keep those huts. Extremely simplified.

              We now don’t have places to banish people to. That’s why the cry for housing is emerging. Someone took the wild away. They should provide an alternative. I believe that’s the whole idea behind wanting the rich to pay. For some reason they were allowed to own everything. Often for centuries.

              It makes little sense to people today. How was anyone allowed to walk somewhere, stake a claim, and own it forever? Even defending it with lethal force? Why aren’t we anymore?

              • stevehobbes@lemy.lol
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                5 months ago

                We didn’t then either. The real issue is scale. What worked when the entire population of the human race was 100,000 doesn’t work when it’s 8,500,000,000.

                You’re right that there are no wilds no, no one is getting 40 acres and a mule, and you can just inhabit a new area.

                But let’s not forget that a lot of the stake a claim and defend with lethal force was literally colonialism. So many of those wilds were owned by other people, but the stronger guy with the bigger rock can kill him, take his land, take his wife.

                Hardly utopia.

                • NotJustForMe
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                  5 months ago

                  Exactly the point I apparently failed to make. It never worked. Yet we are holding on to it. Just with the added caveat that the weapons are now money, and the wilds are gone.

              • Sanctus@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Go ahead and remove their states and countries. Most people would explode. Eventually thats the way. But take an honest look around. It wont happen today

              • stevehobbes@lemy.lol
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                5 months ago

                In what way isn’t it? How were the borders of the France different than the Roman Empire or Mesopotamia?

                • OurToothbrush
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                  5 months ago

                  Literally the free movement of people? Borders used to be “the zone of control of a government” and couldnt really exist as checkpoints for people moving back and forth over the border.

    • EvolvedTurtle@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      Not even We have just enough freedom to feel free But not enough to where we have to pay to litterly live

      I can’t even afford van life tbh

    • Limit@lemm.ee
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      5 months ago

      When the rich wage war its the poor who die.

      -Mike Shinoda

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        The poor go to war, to fight and die for the delights, riches, and superfluities of others.

        – Plutarch

        CE 45 - ~CE 119

        This has literally been said by people for at least two millennia.

  • shasta@lemm.ee
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    5 months ago

    I can’t believe so many of you are upvoting a post about murdering homeless people. You monsters!

  • Blackmist@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Oh don’t worry.

    The billionaires will make sure the homeless don’t exist soon enough.

  • FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Not in the USA it isn’t.

    Neither party has done a damn thing to address housing scarcity, and in a few months, you’re all going to vote for the same assholes who ignore it.

  • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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    5 months ago

    The latter part is kinda wrong. Article 17 of UDHR.

    1. Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
    2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

    And also kinda article 30.

    Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

  • NotJustForMe
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    5 months ago

    I haven’t read up on official human rights. Who made them? Did someone bother to ask most humans?

    This is a Sunday-morning coffee post, not a detailed world-view. Feel free to ask, but refrain from shooting things down. It’s not like I’ve spent hours on this.

    How are they defined, human rights? I’d say anyone in my way to spread my genes keeps me from being a human.

    As a pragmatist, I’d say breathing and eating, and perhaps warmth and caring are human rights. We can’t do any of them on our own after being born, and without them some really crappy humans emerge. Breathing should be top tier. Anyone disturbing that should be under heavy focus. Can’t do anything without air.

    After that, once we are fairly independent, doing things to keep people keeping me from growing up and procreating should be my right.

    Killing someone else would keep them from doing that, so not being killed by other humans seems like one. Killing others would disqualify me from being human, and I would give up my rights by that act. Straightforward stuff.

    Mix in social structures, and it becomes complicated.

    Being homeless? Build a commune somewhere. Why insist on being near that techno-tribe with internet. It’s nothing but a tribe, has nothing to do with survival or being human. Having modern amenities can’t be a right. Other humans invented them at some point.

    Which leads to something no human should have a right to: owning land. Because owning land keeps humans from realizing their purpose and keeps them from being free to be human.

    Housing is a right? That’s ridiculous. That’s a technological achievement from other people. So is monetary wealth. How can those be a right. If nobody came along inventing them, nobody would have them. Can’t be a right. At all. That is just the consequences of capitalism and ownership of natural resources.

    • GrayoxOP
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      5 months ago

      Let me spell it out for you bub, i want to: Abolish Private Property

      • NotJustForMe
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        5 months ago

        You do? I wonder how that would work. Can’t see it, personally.

        • rando895
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          5 months ago

          Probably important to point this out: private property is not personal property.

          E.g. An apartment building rented to tenants is the landlords private property. They have exclusive rights to the decisions, especially economic ones, regarding the building and the profits of the rent.

          A car, book, house, pizza, are all your personal property so long as you don’t owe a lender anything for them.

          So no private property might look like:

          The people who live in an apartment building own the building collectively and have the full right therein, but the individual units are each their own personal property.

    • HiddenLayer5
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      5 months ago

      Appeal to nature fallacy. Just because something is a certain way in nature doesn’t automatically mean it’s good because nature has no concept of good or bad. Living in “the wild” has a far higher mortality rate than any of us should accept today. By your logic nothing should be a human right because we can always just die if we don’t have it, just as nature intended.

      Also, humans originated in the African savannah, which is much warmer than the places most humans now live. And even in the savannah at the dawn of our species we were nest building animals that instinctively would make shelters for ourselves. Housing is as natural to humanity as hives are to bees.

    • arbitrary_sarcasm@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      By that logic, nothing is a human right since you can find food, water and shelter in the wild.

      The problem with that logic is that you assume everyone to be physically able and knowledgeable to live off the land.

      • NotJustForMe
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        5 months ago

        Well, it takes some time to grow up to be able to find food and water. How long until we can walk even?

        Food, water and means to provide an upbringing until offspring can care for themselves, those could be considered basic rights.

        Housing is so far into the technological advancements, building up on so many other systems, I fail to see how that can be a right.

        Air and food on the other hand, and sensible means to acquiring those. Well. There certainly is room for discussion. When people start owning land, keeping others to effectively do those things, they should have to provide alternatives. Or we have to abolish ownership of natural resources at all. Both can’t work together. That’s ineffective, of course, and makes planning and advancement difficult.

        The price of capitalism and ownership of nature should be compensation. Nothing natural about social structures. If they want to continue those money games, they need to play by the rules of nature. Or they’ll go down with chopped-off heads at some point.

      • Sagifurius@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        That’s right. Nothing is a human right. Many humans have rights outlined in their countries constitutions but even those are easily stomped on with usually little consequence

        • arbitrary_sarcasm@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          And you’re saying that shouldn’t be the case right ? Right ?

          I’d insert that Anakin Padme meme here if I had one ready.

          • Sagifurius@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            I’m just saying what is. If you want what I think should be, I’m a non Randian libertarian. Big on personal responsibility and the risk of consequences and consequences of risk, less on being a whiny removed about everything.

    • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      5 months ago

      Article 25 of the declararion of himan rights: Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family

      Seriously, do you think human rights are somehow just a feeling what should be? They are written down and you can look them up.

      • doingless@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        It has also never happened, there has never been a time in all of history. And the declaration of human rights isn’t broadly accepted either.

      • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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        5 months ago

        Yeah, the practical problem with that of course is that if you have more humans than houses, it’s impossible to immediately fulfil the “human right”. This is a fine goal though, but the implementation matters quite a lot.

    • iquanyin@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      it’s illegal. the blm will come with guns and force you out. i know this for a fact. not can i just find some land and grow my food and raise animals. it’s either owned by someone or it’s govt land.

      • NotJustForMe
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        5 months ago

        Absolutely. So instead of building up on that, declaring everyone may own something, making them mini billionaires in principle; yeah, make owning land illegal. That would be the natural conclusion.

        You are basically saying: other people owning things and keeping me from building a house and a live should be illegal. Your solution: Make everyone own something, so they can build a house! Houses for everyone, hurray! But hey, my family is twice as big as yours, my house should, by right, be bigger. And hey, my farm supplies for ten families, it should, by right, be bigger. You don’t want to farm, let me buy your land and provide for you. And so the circle begins.

        I’d say, that thinking is what got us here in the first place.

        • iquanyin@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          i’m pretty sure that native americans were able to not own land and work this out. i do think owning land is absurd. also, all i need to do is look around to know that how we are doing things has to change if our species wants to keep living. i don’t mean what you think but it’s the wee hours here, the key word being “wee” as that’s why i got up for a sec. so…back to sleep it is.

    • kureta
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      5 months ago

      in feudal times ordinary people would have wanted to be a king or a lord, it doesn’t make it right and it doesn’t mean they didn’t want, fought for, and died for a revolution.

      • rivermonster@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        EDIT: Abridged for clarity

        Throughout history, plenty of people have sought out and been fine with a life of subsistence and, where possible, peace. It’s actually more telling when someone can NOT conceive of a life that’s completely soaked in foul consumption and exploitation. Not everyone would want to be a king or lord. Lots would NOT.

    • los_chill@programming.dev
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      5 months ago

      It’s time to think beyond personal enrichment. That kind of greed got us into this mess.

  • Gerula@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Rights are something that the society you live in and contribute to, grants you!

    There are no inherent human rights to be had! Even being alive is a happening not a right! You’re born because your parents fucked, there was nothing special about it!

    L.E. I see a lot of snowflakes are bothered by what I said, good. Maybe you start thinking once about what you have, instead of whining about what you would like!

    • _NoName_
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      5 months ago

      Let’s not forget that the only reason states exist is to serve those within them. If that state should fail to serve its people sufficiently, it’s been common throughout history that they’ve been dismantled by the people.

      You are correct about natural rights. They are fought for. Many rights, such as workers’ rights, were strongly fought for and founded on blood (pretty much all of them in fact). However, when talking about rights, one remember the original meaning of the word: that which is morally good or honorable. The legal entitlement is preceded by the philosophical definition. In a just society legal rights should reflect moral rights as closely as possible.

      Housing is necessary for life, and so depriving an individual of housing when housing is unutilized is equatable to murder, an injustice. This is why the post communicates that housing is a human right.

      • Gerula@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Corect, but if the state is or isn’t serving those within, is a decision to be taken by the same individuals. Up to now those who are considering this are a small subset of the citizens which agrregate in underground forums and not actively trying to change the society and have a positive impact.

        Housing is necessary for life but it was never a right in that society. Also necessary for life are water, clothing, food, medical assistance, etc. None of them are rights of the people within that society. It may not correct but it is what it is.

    • R0cket_M00se@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I’m starting to think most of lemmy is populated by a bunch of kids who just read Marx and have no actual world experiences cause they’re 14.