Well I don’t support genocide racism, sexism, etc. I feel the Anti-fascism movement from what I have seen on TV, can be pretty violent themselves. Maybe the media is making things look that way. I certainly have a distaste for the media in general, not just one network. I really like the website allsides.com, for a more balanced view. I’m open to hearing counterpoints on why my view is wrong for sure. I have friends in the Netherlands that have said very good things about Antifa, I get a different picture of what is going on here in the states though sometimes. There has been a few videos passed along to me tonight, one of which I’m watching now. Maybe someone can forward me something on Antifa that will change my mind in a more positive light. I think I agree with their message, but what I see on the TV honestly pushes me away.
I would also like to thank everyone for the well-thought-out replies! This has already been a more productive conversation than I have ever had on reddit.
I feel the Anti-fascism movement from what I have seen on TV, can be pretty violent themselves.
I think a good thing to consider is to not measure how “good” or “bad” a movement or ideology is based on how violent it is, because not all violence is equal. Take this passage from Paulo Frerie’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed:
“With the establishment of a relationship of oppression, violence has already begun. Never in history has violence been initiated by the oppressed. How could they be the initiators, if they themselves are the result of violence? How could they be the sponsors of something whose objective inauguration called forth their existence as oppressed? There would be no oppressed had there been no prior situation of violence to establish their subjugation.”
It’s better to analyze the historical reasons why a movement may be violent and establish an opinion based on that and look at how the violence is being applied. Also yes it’s a good idea to talk to people about these things, like your friend from the Netherlands or people here on Lemmy.
Good point, It’s not something I had considered really. I just have an issue with violence in general. I think the demonstrations at times have got a bit out of control. Maybe this is a red flag, I don’t know much from the front lines. I live way up in the woods, far from most of what is going on in the world. I have a hard time understanding how things escalate so quickly in the cities though? Help me understand as a redneck of sorts. All we see on the news, is buildings being burned, I can’t really get behind burning buildings any more than I can going around shooting an innocent person. So why is this happening? What am I not seeing in the press. Again I live pretty close to the Canadian border in an extremely tiny town. I don’t see much other than trees.
I should clarify that I am not black and obviously can’t speak on behalf of black people, these are just my thoughts on the matter and if there’s anything I should reconsider please don’t hesitate to point it out.
I just have an issue with violence in general. I think the demonstrations at times have got a bit out of control.
I understand since I’m not a violent person at all, but I realize there are important historical reasons for violence, and I’d rather there be violence for the cause of liberation than a “peaceful” world where the violence is silently applied to the oppressed.
So why is this happening?
There are a variety of reasons for the current BLM movement that stretch out through centuries of history, but the most immediate reason is as a response to the police violence against black communities and individuals. Black people have to had to suffer violence at the hands of the state and the police organ of the state for centuries. Burning down a police station and burning police cars is only returning a fraction of the violence that they’ve had to suffer at the hands of the same police organ. I suggest reading Huey Newton’s autobiography Revolutionary Suicide, where he talks about these issues in the context of the 60s. I can’t think of good contemporary articles or readings about these newer movements, there’s just a lot to choose from so if anyone has some good ones please link.
Help me understand as a redneck of sorts.
Rednecks have a connection to leftist movements! Coal miners at Blair Mountain in West Virginia were protesting for better working conditions and were labeled rednecks for the red bandanas they wore across their necks (Note: this may not necessarily be the origin of the word, but it was used in that way at the time). Just a “fun” fact.
I got some reading to do, videos to watch. Thank you for having the patients to give me well-thought-out answers and not just shout me down for questioning things a little. I’ll certainly be doing more reading up on the movements. I still have a hard time with the violence justifications, but it is what it is. It’s not really in my town, or city, not am I black either. So who am I to say. I’m going to order Huey Newton’s book tonight, as long as I can find it on Amazon. Thanks again.
Just on violence: you probably heard this argument in the video linked earlier, but all political ideologies are violent - they only differ in what circumstances violence is seen as acceptable.
In the current dominant world, it’s seen as acceptable that armies may use violence to secure borders, and to invade other countries to take their resources. It’s seen as acceptable that the police can use violence to protect private property, or against striking workers or protestors. Violence is used especially against minority groups within the working class - such as black people, LGBT, people with mental health issues. It can also be said that private prisons, the conditions which create homelessness, environmental destruction, or denying sick people basic healthcare are all forms of violence.
Unfortunately none of us get to just opt out of choosing an ideology or just being “non-violent” as it’s happening all around us.
Well I don’t support genocide racism, sexism, etc. I feel the Anti-fascism movement from what I have seen on TV, can be pretty violent themselves. Maybe the media is making things look that way. I certainly have a distaste for the media in general, not just one network. I really like the website allsides.com, for a more balanced view. I’m open to hearing counterpoints on why my view is wrong for sure. I have friends in the Netherlands that have said very good things about Antifa, I get a different picture of what is going on here in the states though sometimes. There has been a few videos passed along to me tonight, one of which I’m watching now. Maybe someone can forward me something on Antifa that will change my mind in a more positive light. I think I agree with their message, but what I see on the TV honestly pushes me away.
I would also like to thank everyone for the well-thought-out replies! This has already been a more productive conversation than I have ever had on reddit.
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Totally agree there! Saved the video for later, got one going on my other monitor right now, a series on liberalism someone linked me to.
I think a good thing to consider is to not measure how “good” or “bad” a movement or ideology is based on how violent it is, because not all violence is equal. Take this passage from Paulo Frerie’s Pedagogy of the Oppressed:
It’s better to analyze the historical reasons why a movement may be violent and establish an opinion based on that and look at how the violence is being applied. Also yes it’s a good idea to talk to people about these things, like your friend from the Netherlands or people here on Lemmy.
Good point, It’s not something I had considered really. I just have an issue with violence in general. I think the demonstrations at times have got a bit out of control. Maybe this is a red flag, I don’t know much from the front lines. I live way up in the woods, far from most of what is going on in the world. I have a hard time understanding how things escalate so quickly in the cities though? Help me understand as a redneck of sorts. All we see on the news, is buildings being burned, I can’t really get behind burning buildings any more than I can going around shooting an innocent person. So why is this happening? What am I not seeing in the press. Again I live pretty close to the Canadian border in an extremely tiny town. I don’t see much other than trees.
I should clarify that I am not black and obviously can’t speak on behalf of black people, these are just my thoughts on the matter and if there’s anything I should reconsider please don’t hesitate to point it out.
I understand since I’m not a violent person at all, but I realize there are important historical reasons for violence, and I’d rather there be violence for the cause of liberation than a “peaceful” world where the violence is silently applied to the oppressed.
There are a variety of reasons for the current BLM movement that stretch out through centuries of history, but the most immediate reason is as a response to the police violence against black communities and individuals. Black people have to had to suffer violence at the hands of the state and the police organ of the state for centuries. Burning down a police station and burning police cars is only returning a fraction of the violence that they’ve had to suffer at the hands of the same police organ. I suggest reading Huey Newton’s autobiography Revolutionary Suicide, where he talks about these issues in the context of the 60s. I can’t think of good contemporary articles or readings about these newer movements, there’s just a lot to choose from so if anyone has some good ones please link.
Rednecks have a connection to leftist movements! Coal miners at Blair Mountain in West Virginia were protesting for better working conditions and were labeled rednecks for the red bandanas they wore across their necks (Note: this may not necessarily be the origin of the word, but it was used in that way at the time). Just a “fun” fact.
I got some reading to do, videos to watch. Thank you for having the patients to give me well-thought-out answers and not just shout me down for questioning things a little. I’ll certainly be doing more reading up on the movements. I still have a hard time with the violence justifications, but it is what it is. It’s not really in my town, or city, not am I black either. So who am I to say. I’m going to order Huey Newton’s book tonight, as long as I can find it on Amazon. Thanks again.
Just on violence: you probably heard this argument in the video linked earlier, but all political ideologies are violent - they only differ in what circumstances violence is seen as acceptable.
In the current dominant world, it’s seen as acceptable that armies may use violence to secure borders, and to invade other countries to take their resources. It’s seen as acceptable that the police can use violence to protect private property, or against striking workers or protestors. Violence is used especially against minority groups within the working class - such as black people, LGBT, people with mental health issues. It can also be said that private prisons, the conditions which create homelessness, environmental destruction, or denying sick people basic healthcare are all forms of violence.
Unfortunately none of us get to just opt out of choosing an ideology or just being “non-violent” as it’s happening all around us.
I’ve also recorded that book as an audio book here if that’s your thing. That and black against empire are wonderful histories of the panthers.
Thank you.