Hey Folks!

I’ve been living abroad for over half my life in a country where tipping is not the norm. At most you would round up. 19€ bill? Here’s a 20, keep this change.

Going to the US soon to visit family and the whole idea of tipping makes me nervous. It seems there’s a lot of discussion about getting rid of tipping, but I don’t know how much has changed in this regard.

The system seems ridiculously unfair, and that extra expense in a country where everything is already so expensive really makes a difference.

So will AITA if I don’t tip? Is it really my personal responsibility to make sure my server is paid enough?

  • NathanUpEnglish
    53·
    1 year ago

    Yes. Unless there’s clearly bigotry of some kind behind the behavior, yes. You never know what someone might be dealing with. They could have been denied that day off to attend a funeral for a family member (which absolutely happens in that industry), or they could just be completely burned out and unable to perform the emotional labor and / or masking to appear kind and respectful any more. I’ve been there personally. I’ve also had situations where guests thought I was being rude, when there was just a culture difference and I was trying to communicate. I’ve almost lost my job because I wouldn’t give a customer free product. My “no” was interpreted as rude because I was completely burned out from working 12+ hours straight that day, with no overtime pay, and just couldn’t fake a smile anymore. As a result, unless someone is being openly homophobic, etc, I never tip less than 20%, because my feelings and read on the situation shouldn’t impact someone’s ability to feed themselves.

    • teawrecks@sopuli.xyzEnglish
      2·
      1 year ago

      The fact that you truly believe this is a great example of how bad tipping culture, and work culture has gotten in the US. It’s as if the word “tip” has been completely redefined to mean “compulsory tax on services”. Based on your post, I wouldn’t be surprised if a good portion of youth today legitimately believe that to be the definition.

      What if I told you that all the distress you’re directing toward low/non tippers should be directed at your employer who isn’t paying you properly, is over working you, and doesn’t have your back in the face of shitty customers demanding free stuff? Instead of getting upset about people who rightfully reject a bullshit tipping culture, go unionize. That’s literally what they’re for. Force your employer to treat you like a human being, don’t let them pit you and the customers against each other while they laugh all the way to the bank.

      • NathanUpEnglish
        31·
        1 year ago

        You make some big assumptions about my politics here. Believe me, I’ve got plenty of ‘distress’ for employers. None of this changes the fact that if you know that service workers are grievously exploited and you choose to have them wait on you while not compensating them, then you are also committing an immoral act. You and the employer then have something in common: you both know that the worker ought to be compensated fairly for their work, and you’re both refusing to do it.

        Am I absolved of sin when buying clothing that I know is produced in a sweatshop because ‘well, the employer really ought to improve working conditions, but that’s not my problem’?

        The employer first exploited the worker, then you went in, benefited from their labor for free, directly reducing their income, supporting the business that exploits them while not supporting the worker, and somehow, your hands are clean?

        You could choose to simply not give businesses who don’t fairly compensate their workers your money, but instead, you give them the cost of your dinner and reduce your server’s hourly wage?

        If people want to reject tipping culture, they need to reject businesses that practice it, not fund them.

        • teawrecks@sopuli.xyzEnglish
          13·
          1 year ago

          Could you do me a favor real quick? Could you please tell me in no uncertain terms that you support collective bargaining (i.e. unionization) by workers to combat exploitation by employers. That will short circuit a lot of this I think. If you cannot do that, then I am forced to believe you are arguing in bad faith (as most of your arguments here are reductive, untenable, and deliberately antagonistic).

          • NathanUpEnglish
            1·
            1 year ago

            Will this picture from my kitchen suffice? Now how about some counterarguments to my terrible points?

            A framed IWW poster featuring the cat sabo-tabby, and the text ¡Huelga General! or "General Strike" in English.

            • teawrecks@sopuli.xyzEnglish
              1·
              1 year ago

              That is an awesome poster, and a very…interesting response given how specific my request was…I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, though.

              if you know that service workers are grievously exploited and you choose to have them wait on you while not compensating them, then you are also committing an immoral act…The employer first exploited the worker, then you went in, benefited from their labor for free, directly reducing their income, supporting the business that exploits them while not supporting the worker

              So first off, when I walk into a restaurant, I have no way of knowing if the employees are being exploited. If I believe I live in a functioning society with appropriate regulations in place, I have to assume they’re not. I have to assume that an employee continuing to work somewhere means they would prefer to keep that job, which means they would prefer the business stay in business, which means they would prefer I spend my money at the establishment. If your argument is that by living in the US I should know that all restaurant workers are exploited and thus I should never eat at one, I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

              If that’s NOT what you’re saying, then how do I know when an employee in front of me is being exploited? Either they should tell me, and I’ll leave, or they should quit.

              Am I absolved of sin when buying clothing that I know is produced in a sweatshop…

              I don’t like the choice of the word “sin” here, as that implies some divine being has arbitrarily chosen what “sin” is. I will assume you meant something more akin to “is it ethically conscionable”. And I would say, if not buying the clothing means you are unclothed, then yes. Some problems are inherently systemic, and are much larger than an individual will be able to solve before they need to put clothes on their back.

              On the other hand, if I’m buying a dress to wear once, and I know it’s made by exploited workers, then yeah, no, obviously don’t buy the dress.

              You could choose to simply not give businesses who don’t fairly compensate their workers your money, but instead, you give them the cost of your dinner and reduce your server’s hourly wage? If people want to reject tipping culture, they need to reject businesses that practice it, not fund them.

              Except that, unless the employer opts to break the law, anything between the worker’s tips and minimum wage comes out of the employer’s pocket. Legally, that’s how minimum wage works. I understand that wage theft is a thing, but that exists in many industries, yet you are arguing that uniquely in the restaurant industry, it is the responsibility of the customer to pay for an employer’s crimes? That doesn’t make any sense.

              Your arguments are the equivalent of shifting the blame for climate change onto individuals. Both are systemic problems that can only be solved through regulation, and both have an entire industry built around resisting those regulations. It isn’t my fault for not tipping any more than it’s my fault for having to drive a gas-powered car. I can’t afford an electric car, the infrastructure where I am isn’t there yet, the supply of electric cars isn’t there yet, all of these are real problems that we are decades behind on solving. In the meantime, I have to get to work.

              • NathanUpEnglish
                1·
                1 year ago

                I have no way of knowing if the employees are being exploited… If your argument is that by living in the US I should know that all restaurant workers are exploited and thus I should never eat at one, I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

                • So, even if we are to assume that working conditions are great and wage theft never happens, would you not call paying far below a livable wage exploitation, whether or not it technically meets the minimum wage?
                • Is it your position that a worker cannot be exploited so long as the employer is in compliance with all state rules & regulations?
                • If you are unsure about exploitation / working conditions, etc. in the US restaurant industry, try asking someone with a good amount of relevant experience (raises hand) or just googling, oh, I dunno, “US restaurants wage theft,” or “US restaurants working conditions,” or “US restaurants working alcoholism / substance abuse,” et cetera.

                I have to assume that an employee continuing to work somewhere means they would prefer to keep that job, which means they would prefer the business stay in business, which means they would prefer I spend my money at the establishment.

                • Your presence will not make or break a restaurant, but it can absolutely determine whether or not a service worker earns any money that day. If you are not going to tip, you should allow that servers time to be occupied by someone who will. That is what any service worker would prefer.
                • “Continuing to work somewhere” cannot be taken as an indication that working conditions are equitable. Many factors might prevent someone from being able to find a new job. Even if we are to assume that service workers have the time, money, energy, ability, and opportunity to find a new job, it’s all moot if the conditions, by and large, do not improve from establishment to establishment. In the restaurant industry, they do not.

                unless the employer opts to break the law, anything between the worker’s tips and minimum wage comes out of the employer’s pocket… you are arguing that uniquely in the restaurant industry, it is the responsibility of the customer to pay for an employer’s crimes?

                • They do opt to break the law, as a rule. Wage theft is a feature of this industry, not a bug.
                • While it is not your responsibility to “pay for an employers crimes,” if you choose to fund the criminal, while withholding the customary compensation to the service worker who is a victim of these crimes, you also play a part in exploiting them.
                • Other industries do not offer a corrective mechanism for wage theft. In foodservice, however, you are given the opportunity to rectify this directly in a way that solely benefits the worker, and not only do you have the opportunity to do this, it’s a customary practice based on a fixed percentage that you know to expect in advance and you can budget for.
                • If wage theft due to employers not making up the discrepancy between tip income and minimum wage does occur in a sufficiently busy / reasonably priced restaurant, it can only do so due to customers who do not tip appropriately. If you take this into account, then not only have you been reducing the hourly wage of some of our society’s poorest workers, not only have you been funding the criminal employer, but you may have also been a determining factor in wage theft taking place because you failed to pay the expected tip. In fact, due to the “tip-out” system, you may have unknowingly colluded with the employer to bring a server’s compensation down to the point that they owe the restaurant money at the end of the shift. I’ve seen this happen myself.

                Your arguments are the equivalent of shifting the blame for climate change onto individuals. Both are systemic problems that can only be solved through regulation, and both have an entire industry built around resisting those regulations. It isn’t my fault for not tipping any more than it’s my fault for having to drive a gas-powered car. I can’t afford an electric car,

                • I’m sorry, I must have misspoken at some point. Can you show me where I said or implied that worker exploitation at restaurants is not a systemic issue and should be solved solely at the individual level?
                • Here’s the difference between your car analogy and the tipping situation: you need to go to work. You do not need to go to a restaurant. That’s the difference here. Can you stop climate change on your own? Of course not, but that doesn’t mean you can throw garbage out of your car window with moral impunity. By not tipping but continuing to give your money to restaurants, you’re not only not helping the situation, you’re actively making workers’ lives worse in the process.
      • NathanUpEnglish
        31·
        1 year ago

        That’s great! I assume, then, that this means you wouldn’t deny a service worker needed resources because you thought they were a little grumpy?