By Tyler Lyons On My Life Before Joining the Party Long before the onset of the COVID pandemic, I was struggling with my political identity. I had been disillusioned with…
You are still purposefully misusing and construing patriotism as being the same as national liberation.
Caring about the people in your country and wanting to dismantle the existing power structure to create something better isn’t patriotism.
I hesitate to trust liberal and opportunist groups, but KKE isn’t opportunist and I like them.
I still say calling national liberation struggles for international socialism is a pointless label, and Lenin decried American patriotism. In times of war, those in the imperial core should desire the defeat of their own government.
Thats what you dont understand. Patriotism has nothing to do with your government. For those in imperial core countries, revolutionary defeatism IS PATRIOTIC. Thats what Mao is saying right there: “To bring about the defeat of the japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means IS IN THE INTERESTS of the japanese and german people”. There is nothing unpatriotic about revolutionary defeatism, because revolutionary defeatism is in the interests of the people, and what is patriotism if not fighting for the interests of your people? Patriotism isnt supporting wars by your imperialist government, thats bourgeois “patriotism”, as Mao also clearly states. Every communist party around the world recognizes this, its just you weirdo yankees who deny this.
mate I think you’ve got some valid points alongside PolandIsAStateOfMind but you and them have delved into reddit/youtube-like internetspeak and extremely uncomradely behavior with people even engaging in good faith. I’m aware upthread someone was engaging in bad faith, but I’d just recommend reflecting for a second before shitting on people with questions asking about or discussing the issue from a genuine place.
I dont think i have been rude to anyone, but ok. The only person i was rude to is “Makan CPUSA”, but thats because he literally dismissed the Communist Party of Greece, a massive party for which hundreds of thousands of greek communists died for and that hundreds of thousands of greek workers put their faith in, as reactionary just because they are homophobic. This is pure yankee arrogance, it has no other name, and it should be called out, im sure youll agree.
You put words in comrade “idliketothinkimsmart”'s mouth and accused them of all sorts of damaging things. I believe being rightfully angry at an individual ITT has soured your mood relating to this whole thread over that one individual, calling comrades exceptionalist and being ‘ridiculous’ etc etc. I just don’t want to see this site circle(jerk) back around into reddit.
So why do ya think patriotism is whatgets us yanks rabid? At this point Yankee MLs can see through the “commodification”, if you will, of “democracy” and “freedom” but not “patriotism”? Is it us yanks think, patriotism equals proud of country, and country equals the empire? So being patriotic is supporting the Empire, then. Instead of let’s say for a metaphor the people are the cells of your body and imperialism is a horrendous diesease. Patriotism would be wanting the best of your body’s ability so the overthrow of the diesease. While Yank MLs think patriotism is supporting the diesease that will infect others. Hope this made sense, thanks for your work in combating us yanks narrow world view, SH24.
Thanks man, i agree with you. I dont exactly know why americans have this weird view. Some like Caleb Maupin suggest this is promoted by the CIA to divide the american left. This seemed farfetched to me, although lately im thinking its not as unlikely. It could also just be a reaction to the pervasive jingoism and chauvinism that maskerades as “patriotism” in the USA. The people who tend to be the most “patriotic” in USA, the trump alt right, are often racist and white supremacist, so i can see why US leftists would see patriotism negatively. Glad to have helped you consider different perspectives.
It also seems like that us Yanks forget minorities exist and an inability to envision the US patriotically. New Afrikans are patriotic for a new Nation in the land of North America, Natives are patriotic for their land back, Hawaiians are patriotic for their land back. But then one might ask “Aren’t they anti-patriotic for going against the states?” No! It’s in the name, United States, a hodge podge of colonies stuck together in insignificant ways due to ruling elite’s arm race if whether Black people will be normal slaves or wage slaves. From what I have experienced, this seems to be pretty well accepted from Yankee MLs, patriotism becomes controversial for white people. This is something I have been pondering and this thread is already getting long but I ll put this down from an idea I have just drafted up. These minorities are patriotic for the betterment of their people not the US, and this aligns with our definition patriotism being about communites so no contradiction here. The US has destroyed almost all culture for them, so their patriotism is consolidating and taking back what they had stolen from them. Now for white people we have no culture under capitalism. Anglos haven’t had a chance to build a culture, and feel true patriotism, and this will atomize further unless we have some sort of communist solidarity and freedom. The true white people’s patriotism is paying reparations to those they have wronged and embracing a communist future where they can finally build a culture. Now, I know I don’t have to clarify that Im not advocating for ethnostates since y’all are smart, but you never know what can happen on the internet.
The problem is when M-L parties push this patriotic line also embrace colonizer imagery and symbolism. Like, they can’t be like “bourgeois patriotism isn’t what we’re talking about,” and then wave the Yankee flag too.
Well of course! Again some building of culture is needed, and I want US ML parties to start creating new symbols of patriotism. I, myself have been experimenting, and I think the Rooster would be a great symbol. It has been used in the other parts of the Americas on the left, and it has that rural appeal to it. The US flag is a body count of colonies and needs to be done away with, as with most things. We need symbols that appeal to the people, not people to appeal to the symbols.
Yeah exactly, its like they cant fathom that white americans are (mostly) proletarians too, and thus too feel proletarian patriotism. I personally believe the USA is a multinational nation. Many different nations, the indigenous nations, the black nation, the chicano nation, the irish nation, the english nation, the italian nation, have now all been united in 1 plurinational nation by 300 years of common history. And while yes, this history has been incredibly exploitative to some of those nations, that doesnt mean a common bond hasnt been created. In Russia, all the cultures oppressed by the Empire had nevertheless a common bond between them and the russian nation, which then resulted in the soviet nation, a common multinational nation. I personally believe a socialist USA should be based on the soviet model. All the languages suppressed in favor of anglocentrism should be revived and made official. Italian, spanish, indigenous languages, should be revived and made official languages, just like it was done in USSR. This is the type of patriotism americans should strive for imo, a patriotism that applies to all americans, english, irish, italian, black, indigenous, a common patriotism that nevertheless recognizes the right of self determination of all the nations oppressed by the bourgeois USA state.
I too view it similarly, and the left here need to really to start imagining a better future. Sure the Third World will be painted red first, but us Yanks need to start dismantling the imperial core and reclaim it for everyone. And I mean everyone, even those “backward hicks” leftists love to dunk on. I can go more into what I have been noticing with the neglect of country folk and poor anglos and why a good portion turn to extremism because if it and overall orientalism towards them, but this thread is getting long so I might make a post or write a pamphlet. Dunno still a baby ML, lol.
Yes i agree. Many here often dismiss the trump movement as “just some racist fascists”, but i think thats simplistic. There is a reason the Trump movement has been so successful, even among some nonwhites. While there is certainly a very big chunk of Trump supporters who are straight up bigots and white supremacists, there is also a big chunk that isnt. Working class americans know there is something wrong with the system, but they dont know why. Their indoctrination makes them distrust communism, and i also think this pervasive “antipatriotism” doesnt help either. Many americans do feel indeed patriotic, in the wrong way sure, in a bourgeois way, but you should teach them proletarian patriotism, not just cut them off as “reactionaries”.
Trumps populism, its appeal to “reclaim America” from the “evil liberal democrat elites”, will ofc sound appealing to many working class americans. I think the american communists have forgotten that communism is inherently populist, that simple slogans are needed to rally the masses. Trump knows this, and thats why he was so effective. “America first” resonates perfectly, on the surface at least. American communist need to learn from the Trump movement, take his effective populist strategies, and apply them against the bourgeoisie. After all, it was “Peace, Land and Bread” that won the masses to the bolsheviks. American communists need similar slogans, something like “America is for the people, not for the elites”.
I highly recommend Caleb Maupins youtube channel. Despite idiots here calling him “a nazbol”, he is anything but a nazbol. Hes antiracist, proLGBT, antiimperialist and ML. He has some interesting perspectives on certain issues, highly recommend:
It seems that unassuming trump supporters have material condition s of class consciousness, but don’t have the words or really information to describe it as communism. Lol maybe a better catch phrase than that, something with more umph. Now before I dive in isn’t there somereal issues with Maupin, or is it just his supporters?
You are still purposefully misusing and construing patriotism as being the same as national liberation.
Caring about the people in your country and wanting to dismantle the existing power structure to create something better isn’t patriotism.
I hesitate to trust liberal and opportunist groups, but KKE isn’t opportunist and I like them.
I still say calling national liberation struggles for international socialism is a pointless label, and Lenin decried American patriotism. In times of war, those in the imperial core should desire the defeat of their own government.
Thats what you dont understand. Patriotism has nothing to do with your government. For those in imperial core countries, revolutionary defeatism IS PATRIOTIC. Thats what Mao is saying right there: “To bring about the defeat of the japanese aggressors and of Hitler by every possible means IS IN THE INTERESTS of the japanese and german people”. There is nothing unpatriotic about revolutionary defeatism, because revolutionary defeatism is in the interests of the people, and what is patriotism if not fighting for the interests of your people? Patriotism isnt supporting wars by your imperialist government, thats bourgeois “patriotism”, as Mao also clearly states. Every communist party around the world recognizes this, its just you weirdo yankees who deny this.
mate I think you’ve got some valid points alongside PolandIsAStateOfMind but you and them have delved into reddit/youtube-like internetspeak and extremely uncomradely behavior with people even engaging in good faith. I’m aware upthread someone was engaging in bad faith, but I’d just recommend reflecting for a second before shitting on people with questions asking about or discussing the issue from a genuine place.
I dont think i have been rude to anyone, but ok. The only person i was rude to is “Makan CPUSA”, but thats because he literally dismissed the Communist Party of Greece, a massive party for which hundreds of thousands of greek communists died for and that hundreds of thousands of greek workers put their faith in, as reactionary just because they are homophobic. This is pure yankee arrogance, it has no other name, and it should be called out, im sure youll agree.
You put words in comrade “idliketothinkimsmart”'s mouth and accused them of all sorts of damaging things. I believe being rightfully angry at an individual ITT has soured your mood relating to this whole thread over that one individual, calling comrades exceptionalist and being ‘ridiculous’ etc etc. I just don’t want to see this site circle(jerk) back around into reddit.
Could be, maybe you are right
You’re regurgitating my point.
Please stop raging.
So why do ya think patriotism is whatgets us yanks rabid? At this point Yankee MLs can see through the “commodification”, if you will, of “democracy” and “freedom” but not “patriotism”? Is it us yanks think, patriotism equals proud of country, and country equals the empire? So being patriotic is supporting the Empire, then. Instead of let’s say for a metaphor the people are the cells of your body and imperialism is a horrendous diesease. Patriotism would be wanting the best of your body’s ability so the overthrow of the diesease. While Yank MLs think patriotism is supporting the diesease that will infect others. Hope this made sense, thanks for your work in combating us yanks narrow world view, SH24.
Thanks man, i agree with you. I dont exactly know why americans have this weird view. Some like Caleb Maupin suggest this is promoted by the CIA to divide the american left. This seemed farfetched to me, although lately im thinking its not as unlikely. It could also just be a reaction to the pervasive jingoism and chauvinism that maskerades as “patriotism” in the USA. The people who tend to be the most “patriotic” in USA, the trump alt right, are often racist and white supremacist, so i can see why US leftists would see patriotism negatively. Glad to have helped you consider different perspectives.
It also seems like that us Yanks forget minorities exist and an inability to envision the US patriotically. New Afrikans are patriotic for a new Nation in the land of North America, Natives are patriotic for their land back, Hawaiians are patriotic for their land back. But then one might ask “Aren’t they anti-patriotic for going against the states?” No! It’s in the name, United States, a hodge podge of colonies stuck together in insignificant ways due to ruling elite’s arm race if whether Black people will be normal slaves or wage slaves. From what I have experienced, this seems to be pretty well accepted from Yankee MLs, patriotism becomes controversial for white people. This is something I have been pondering and this thread is already getting long but I ll put this down from an idea I have just drafted up. These minorities are patriotic for the betterment of their people not the US, and this aligns with our definition patriotism being about communites so no contradiction here. The US has destroyed almost all culture for them, so their patriotism is consolidating and taking back what they had stolen from them. Now for white people we have no culture under capitalism. Anglos haven’t had a chance to build a culture, and feel true patriotism, and this will atomize further unless we have some sort of communist solidarity and freedom. The true white people’s patriotism is paying reparations to those they have wronged and embracing a communist future where they can finally build a culture. Now, I know I don’t have to clarify that Im not advocating for ethnostates since y’all are smart, but you never know what can happen on the internet.
The problem is when M-L parties push this patriotic line also embrace colonizer imagery and symbolism. Like, they can’t be like “bourgeois patriotism isn’t what we’re talking about,” and then wave the Yankee flag too.
Well of course! Again some building of culture is needed, and I want US ML parties to start creating new symbols of patriotism. I, myself have been experimenting, and I think the Rooster would be a great symbol. It has been used in the other parts of the Americas on the left, and it has that rural appeal to it. The US flag is a body count of colonies and needs to be done away with, as with most things. We need symbols that appeal to the people, not people to appeal to the symbols.
Yeah exactly, its like they cant fathom that white americans are (mostly) proletarians too, and thus too feel proletarian patriotism. I personally believe the USA is a multinational nation. Many different nations, the indigenous nations, the black nation, the chicano nation, the irish nation, the english nation, the italian nation, have now all been united in 1 plurinational nation by 300 years of common history. And while yes, this history has been incredibly exploitative to some of those nations, that doesnt mean a common bond hasnt been created. In Russia, all the cultures oppressed by the Empire had nevertheless a common bond between them and the russian nation, which then resulted in the soviet nation, a common multinational nation. I personally believe a socialist USA should be based on the soviet model. All the languages suppressed in favor of anglocentrism should be revived and made official. Italian, spanish, indigenous languages, should be revived and made official languages, just like it was done in USSR. This is the type of patriotism americans should strive for imo, a patriotism that applies to all americans, english, irish, italian, black, indigenous, a common patriotism that nevertheless recognizes the right of self determination of all the nations oppressed by the bourgeois USA state.
I too view it similarly, and the left here need to really to start imagining a better future. Sure the Third World will be painted red first, but us Yanks need to start dismantling the imperial core and reclaim it for everyone. And I mean everyone, even those “backward hicks” leftists love to dunk on. I can go more into what I have been noticing with the neglect of country folk and poor anglos and why a good portion turn to extremism because if it and overall orientalism towards them, but this thread is getting long so I might make a post or write a pamphlet. Dunno still a baby ML, lol.
Yes i agree. Many here often dismiss the trump movement as “just some racist fascists”, but i think thats simplistic. There is a reason the Trump movement has been so successful, even among some nonwhites. While there is certainly a very big chunk of Trump supporters who are straight up bigots and white supremacists, there is also a big chunk that isnt. Working class americans know there is something wrong with the system, but they dont know why. Their indoctrination makes them distrust communism, and i also think this pervasive “antipatriotism” doesnt help either. Many americans do feel indeed patriotic, in the wrong way sure, in a bourgeois way, but you should teach them proletarian patriotism, not just cut them off as “reactionaries”.
Trumps populism, its appeal to “reclaim America” from the “evil liberal democrat elites”, will ofc sound appealing to many working class americans. I think the american communists have forgotten that communism is inherently populist, that simple slogans are needed to rally the masses. Trump knows this, and thats why he was so effective. “America first” resonates perfectly, on the surface at least. American communist need to learn from the Trump movement, take his effective populist strategies, and apply them against the bourgeoisie. After all, it was “Peace, Land and Bread” that won the masses to the bolsheviks. American communists need similar slogans, something like “America is for the people, not for the elites”.
I highly recommend Caleb Maupins youtube channel. Despite idiots here calling him “a nazbol”, he is anything but a nazbol. Hes antiracist, proLGBT, antiimperialist and ML. He has some interesting perspectives on certain issues, highly recommend:
https://youtube.com/c/CalebMaupinTV
It seems that unassuming trump supporters have material condition s of class consciousness, but don’t have the words or really information to describe it as communism. Lol maybe a better catch phrase than that, something with more umph. Now before I dive in isn’t there somereal issues with Maupin, or is it just his supporters?