- cross-posted to:
- memes@hexbear.net
- cross-posted to:
- memes@hexbear.net
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I wouldn’t put China and Russia in the same basket though
sure but one thing is calling out putin for his ultraconservative policies and possible ties to neonazi groups; other thing is to attack russian with what basically amounts to cold war anti-russia propaganda
Absolutely. Going further, Putin is undeniably better for the Russian people and for the world than e.g. Navalny would’ve been: a literal neo-Nazi who called immigrants “cockroaches who should be exterminated” in a televised interview, and who’s top aide met with MI6 offering to create a color revolution for 10-20 mln USD.
For as long as the West is attempting to install a Yeltsin 2.0 in Russia, Russian people will keep electing Putin or some “continuation Putin” if they know what’s good for them.
Having said that, I don’t consider modern Russia “anti-imperialist” as some other posters here, and I have no love for Putin. It’s a bit like Assad, the least bad option under the imperialist assault of the USA and it’s vassals.
he absolutely wanted to join the imperialist forces, and asked several times to join NATO only to be kicked in the balls each time and told that he was the bad guy
calling him “anti-imperialist” is a bit of a stretch, but he’s definitely acting as a force against western hegemony, if only for his own benefit
Antiimperialism don’t have to be permanent and it don’t need to come from marxism.
true but imo it assumes commitment against imperialism in a fundamental level which i do not believe putin has at all. he would gladly be yet another collabolator for western imperialism if he could*, but the “russian enemy” archetype is just too useful for the usa to give up
*i think he even tried to join nato afaik
but imo it assumes commitment against imperialism in a fundamental level
In most famous example, Lenin and Stalin considered a literal monarch, emir of Afghanistan and his fight for independence against the British, an antiimperialist and offered him friendship and support of USSR. If even that case was considered antiimperialist by the two guys who literally formulated the theory about imperialism and antiimperialism then Putin’s Russia, currently the foremost force actively resisting the empire on multiple fronts is so much more.
This is very uninformed. They were specifically talking about national liberation movements of oppressed peoples. Russia is not colonised and not fighting for independence.
Emphasis mine:
The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such “desperate” democrats and “Socialists,” “revolutionaries” and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism. For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptians merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of Egyptian national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to socialism; whereas the struggle that the British “Labour” Government is waging to preserve Egypt’s dependent position is for the same reason a reactionary struggle, despite the proletarian origin and the proletarian title of the members of the government, despite the fact that they are “for” socialism. There is no need to mention the national movement in other, larger, colonial and dependent countries, such as India and China, every step of which along the road to liberation, even if it runs counter to the demands of formal democracy, is a steam-hammer blow at imperialism, i.e., is undoubtedly a revolutionary step.
makes sense. do you have any text i can read on that?
edit: in any case, i still think that it’s useful to make a distinction between entities that seem to be anti-imperialist as a fundamental goal (eg china imo) and clearly opportunistic “antiimperalists” (russia)
Trump and Farrage advocate against supporting Ukraine, are they anti-imperialist?
This is not a fair comparison. Russia has not yet reached the imperialist stage of capitalism. Russia’s presence in West Asia and Africa is currently a counter to the imperialist West. Therefore, it currently has an anti-imperialist character. There is no doubt that Russia as a capitalist nation will eventually reach the stage of imperialism, or become imperialized.
Amerikkka and TERF Island are both imperialist nations. They will continue to be imperialist even if they were to pull out of Ukraine.
Genuine good faith question here. Did Russian oil companies play a role in the invasion of Ukraine? And if they did, was it in a monopolies expanding outside of the bounds of the Russian economy kind of way or was it of a different character?
WW1 Russian Empire was even further from reaching the imperialist stage of capitalism, yet Lenin did not consider it anti-imperialist. That’s the context in which revolutionary defeatism theory was developed.
I wouldn’t say that they “are anti-imperialist”. I might say that—from an empty, shallow, rhetorical standpoint—they are “doing an anti-imperialism”. Putin is doing a less shallow/empty anti-imperialism, because he’s gone beyond mere rhetoric, but I wouldn’t call him a principled anti-imperialist, but an opportunistic one.
What Davel said.
Pytania są tendencyjne
Fully agreed!
Of course not but one way or another they have found themselves in the anti-imperialist side.
Think of it this way, during the secession war, which side would you have supported? The capitalists of the north that one way or another found themselves on the side of abolishment of slavery or the pro-slavery south? Marx and Engels staunchly chose the former.
That’s fine and I support e.g. Russia’s alignment with the new Sahel governments, but not e.g. invasion in Ukraine which achieved some goals of the US and is not decolonial in nature.
The real test is to ask about Cuba.
No, it’s China. Western leftists love Cuba, not particularly because theyre socialist but because they’re poor.
I thought Cuba was loved by compatible left types?
That’s my impression too. Supporting Cuba seems like the lowest bar to clear out of all AES countries
They’ll rant about the cuban “regime”, too. Always just a matter of time.
Cuba was my gateway AES, they were the easiest to support even before I read theory.
Nah, it’s to ask about Israel
Hey now, let’s be fair.
They might just be a 12 year old in the imperial core.
Cunningham’s law compels me: HOW DO YOU DO, FELLOW LEFTISTS?
What’s left-wing about Russia right now?
Russia opposes the anglo-american world order which is the only imperialist power. Anti-imperialism is the most important aspect of the leftist struggle. Socialism is nearly impossible under the tyranny of the reactionary world hegemon as witnessed by the blockades and sanctions on Cuba, DPRK, and Venezuela. The delicate balancing act that China has had to play gets them labeled as “not really socialists.” The carnage the imperialists in Libya, Argentina, and Indonesia because of their leftist leanings are what happen when you try and fail to build socialism under the imperialist gaze.
Russia absolutely is an imperialist power. They’re literally invading one of their former imperial possessions, not to mention the shit they’re doing in Georgia, Syria, Nigeria etc
If you support Russia’s wars of aggression, you’re not anti-imperialist.
Russia is a capitalist oligarchy, but every decolonial and anti-imperialist movements are aligned with them because it’s their best chance of resisting imperialist powers (US and its allies) and gain self-determination. The recent revolutionary governments in the Sahel (AES) are a good example of that.
Russia isn’t left wing, but leftist need to give them critical support in that respect in the context of the struggle against imperialism, because failing to do so means opposing the right to self determination of these oppressed people.
This is perfectly put, thank you. I would only add that Russia’s decolonial role is entirely opportunistic and not principled, and as such can’t be fully relied upon. The oppressed people you mention will be wise to plan for a possibility that the wind blows some other way and Russia betrays them. Like how Russia could’ve finished off ISIS but didn’t because Putin preferred getting cozy with Erdogan.
Like how Russia could’ve finished off ISIS but didn’t because Putin preferred getting cozy with Erdogan.
What a weird way to frame this, the US literally threatened Russia if Syria dared to touch Idlib, the head choppers stronghold.
I didn’t know Idlib agreements were caused by US threats. But look at Russia now, fighting a full on proxy war with NATO anyway. Would it really have been much worse?
In hindsight, it was a blunder definitely.
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Oh yes absolutely, that’s an important precision thanks for adding it.
Remind me again, which country is supporting head chopping extremists in Syria, and stole their oil, and which country supported the secular goverment which in turn supported the resistance in Palestine. Or in eastern europe, which country pushed balcanization, ethnic hatred and literally arms neonazis and which one fights them, or in Africa which country bombed back to the stone age the countries that wanted unification like panafricanism and panarabism and continues to support head chopping salafists?
You’re either dumb as a rock or youre just cynical, or both actually.
Opposing imperialism is not imperialism and only an idiot (or a imperialist sponsored poster) would argue otherwise. If you want to debate about imperialism you have to know what the word means. Geo-political analysis doesn’t work if you are operating on vibes and contextual definitions.
We live in a monopolar world. There is only 1 Imperialist power. It is made up of the anglo-american world and europe. The so called “golden billion” or Global North. Anyone not part of the global north is unable to be imperialist because there is almost nobody left to colonize or vassalize because the western powers have already done so.
The few independent nations of the world have only 2 choices, They can fight imperialism or try to conquer each other to build a tiny little empire. The latter will just weaken them and give empire the opening to balkanize and vassalize them. All geopolitical action in a monopolar world either helps the hegemon or hurts it, so if the USA says something is bad it is by definition anti-imperialist.
The war in Ukraine was originally a civil war with the maidan movement backed by the USA (who we agree is 100% imperialist right?) It was western imperialism that started the war and Russia’s response has been to counter that imperialism. You can’t call a nation “imperialist” because it works to fight imperialist encroachment on its border.
The current Russia is not the same nation as the USSR or the Russia Empire. They do occupy much of the same space but they are not the same ideologically politically or economically. Even then Ukraine was a willing and valued part of the old Russian empire who gained significant benefit including not being violently conquered by the empire to the west. The same goes 100x for Ukraine under the USSR. The USSR liberated Ukraine from the god dammed nazis. Are you saying that liberating Auschwitz was an act of Russian Imperialism?
The issue in Georgia has nothing to do with Russia. They had an election and the old president refused to accept the results. She pulled a trump. The new president is not pro-Russia he is just holding out for a better deal from the EU. And again, The EU is an imperialist power. Supporting people who resist the EU is anti-imperialist.
former imperial possessions
I’m curious, do you think that the Soviet Union was oppressing the population of socialist Ukraine? If so, that’s quite false.
Well you see, the USSR killing the Nazis occupying Ukraine was Russians doing an imperialism. Liberating Auschwitz? Imperialism.
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Ukraine was never a “former imperial possession”. The current iteration of Ukraine was created by the USSR. Also imperialism is not when invading.
As for the other things:
Georgia: Fired on russian peacekeeping forces in South-Ossetia, thus started a war (this is supported by a UN investigation). Georgia started it, Russia ended it. Completely fine under international law. One of the legal cases of legal war is one in self defense.
Syria: The then government asked for military help. Russia provided help. Completely fine under international law. The other legal case for war is to aid in the defense of another nation when asked to do so.
Nigeria: What happened there?
The only thing that “could” be labeled russian war of aggression is the SMO, but per liberal logic it is not. Russia cited “responsibility to protect” as the reason, which for libs was completely fine when the west did it in Serbia. Russia stated that this would give a bad precedent case regarding the justification of wars.
As communist I don’t really give a shit if a war is waged as aggressor or defensive. The outcome is relevant.
Georgia? Tell me again who is sanctioning them and trying to encourage insurrection because their government isn’t playing ball?
Propably thinks Russia started the Georgian-Russian war a few years ago. It was Georgia who started it, tho.
Russia absolutely is an imperialist power.
Russia, if given its druthers, would be imperialist, but since it presently doesn’t, it presently isn’t. Putin tried to join NATO once, to join the imperialist club, but that was rejected, because the US wanted Russia Balkanized & plundered instead. Russia has figured out that presently it’s better off allying with Global South countries than attempting imperialist adventures upon them. And this war has accelerated that allyship.
woops koolaid got ya
Russia is an imperialist nation which is clear by the attitudes of the nations around Russia think of Russia not just in Europe but everywhere where they border another nation. Look what they did to Afghanistan before America decimated it
Illiterate gibberish. Modern Russian state did nothing in Afghanistan.
USSR was there because the legitimate elected government which was allied with the USSR repeatedly asked for military help against the USA sponsored coup which put religious extremists in power.
“Attitudes” of your neighbours don’t make you an imperialist power. Imperialism is defined on whether you use military violence or threats to extract wealth from other nations. It isn’t just some “vibe” or defined on evil mustache twirling.
Europe is a part of the anglo-american empire. France literally still has colonies Africa. They are imperialists and as such their opinion is worth less than shit.
Most of the nations that Russia borders have very positive relations with them.
In 2014 more than half of ukrainians preferred trade agreements with Russia over the EU… which is why the usa sponsored the miadan coup even after the Elected president agreed to early elections.
I fully fully agree that the west, including Britian, France, America, Israel, Germany are imperialist powers that have done far more bad then good in this world. But Russia isn’t that far off from the same imperialist thinking ways whether now with it’s invasion in Ukraine and land grabs in georgie and having Belarus (still not as bad as america, not even remotely). I think my main point was china i actually do like. They might value life a little less but they don’t just invade people for shit they want and instead play a smarter and often more mutually beneficial game then couping anyone who says no to you. I truly hope America falls into the worse kind of civil war that makes the Roman empire collapse look dignified
Russia isn’t that far off from the same imperialist thinking
Where is your evidence? How do you know what “Russian thinking” is? This is just orientalism. Look at the actions of Russia not your crystal ball or phrenology chart.
Russia didn’t just invade ukraine because they wanted the land or resources. Russia wanted a neutral neighbour as a buffer between itself and the imperialists. They dont want Ukrainian land or resources. Russia already had more of everything that ukraine has. They spent decades telling nato that eastern expansion was an existential threat. Russia spent 9 years trying to get ukraine and nato to uphold negotiated signed peace deals. Those are not imperialist methods. The war in ukraine was started by imperialism from nato. Resisting imperialism is anti-imperialist.
Russia’s involvement in South Ossetia is anti-imperialist too. Ossetia was granted independence from the Georgian SSR by the USSR. When the USSR was dismantled Georgia tried to re-annex Ossetia against the Ossetian people’s will. Georgia’s claims over Ossetia are imperialist in nature. It is not a land grab. Russia has floated the idea of offering Ossetia membership in the Russian federation but not without a referendum and consent of the people. Russia does have troops in Ossetia but they were invited by the Ossetians.
Russia is by no means a socialist nation, reactionary ideas abound and there is legitimate concern that they could become imperialists if the USA were out of the picture BUT… right now the reality is they are opposing imperialism. Russia’s close ties with China and the fact that they will likely never be able to match China mean any imperialist dreams that Russians might have will be just dreams.
china i actually do like. They might value life a little less
WTF is this? thats just mad levels of racist, more orientalism, and again not based on material reality. If China doesn’t value life why have they raised the average life expectancy faster than every other nation in history? If they don’t value life why are they responsible for installing more green energy than the rest of the western world combined several years in a row?
Kill the racist in your brain. Its poisoning your thinking. Stop telling yourself you understand the “thinking” of entire nations. Look at their actions.
Honestly China sucks at anti-imperialism. They don’t further imperialism or profit from it directly but they also don’t do much to slow it down. They don’t confront the west on their imperialism. They barely finger waged the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria. They learned the wrong lesson from their mistake supporting Pol Pot and now they don’t intervene on behalf of anyone even socialists in their back yard. They seem to think the best way forward is to wait the imperialists out but in the meantime there are 5 billion people crushed under the imperialist boot. Its a reactive plan with no guarantees and a certain ethical dubiousness.
There’s no point talking to you when your first paragraph is incorrect. So what was the Crimea operation? South ossentia. Transistria? There was a time post soviet Russia was on a good path, but it’s literally under a former KGB lead dictatorship of a man who wants to reunify the USSR or atleast bring the same sort of glory. I’m all for nuances and I’m very nuances about Russia compared the west who see Russia=bad but you’re on the same equally dumb fallacy west=bad Russia=saint. Both are nuanced and both are pretty bad, even nations I love there’s a lot of bad, from china to turkey to Scotland. It’s good you realise the awful propoganda of the west but you just fell into another kind of propoganda and you aren’t any better at discerning propaganda than a maga or a typical western neoliberal
Crimea: Seceeded from Ukraine as per its right as autonomous republic within Ukraine. The voted to join Russia.
South Ossetia: The region of Ossetia was split between Russia and Georgia, and the south not exactly being keen on being part of Georgia. Both Georgia and Russia kept peacekeeping forces there to prevent escalation of this situation into civil war. A few years back Georgia escalated and opened fire on the Russian forces. Russia crushed Georgia.
Transnistria: The region seceeded, a local soviet division, which would later be integrated into the Russian armed forces, aided the secessionists.
who wants to reunify the USSR or atleast bring the same sort of glory.
No such statement exists.
I’m all for nuances and I’m very nuances about Russia compared the west who see Russia=bad but you’re on the same equally dumb fallacy west=bad Russia=saint.
Which no one here does. People are just disagreeing with your outlandish points. There’s lots to critique with Russia (its anti-communism, its Olligarchs, its treatment of the LGBTQ+ people, its nationalism etc.), yet your points all are the most batshit western allegations. Not a peep about the many valid points.
which is clear by the attitudes of the nations around Russia think
The four -stans in central asia, Belorussia, China, the DPRK and Mongolia all have great relations with Russia…
Only nations with a subservient relationship towards a certain north american state have negative attitudes towards Russia, I wonder why?
As for what they did in Afghanistan: Russia did nothing, it did not exist back then. You are one of the weirdos who equates current day Russia with the USSR. The latter consisted of several republics of which the russian SFRS was the largest. The russian SFRS became current day Russia after the illegal dissolution of the USSR.
As for what the soviets did in Afghanistan: Aiding the local government against US funded jihadists.
It boggles my mind how libs, including the Russian libs, keep forgetting that USSR joined the Afghanistan conflict on the side of Afghanistan.
Are you actually nuts? You’re speaking to Pakistani with a more intimate knowledge of the afgan struggle then any of you. It was the Soviets that set the afgan path of progress, democracy, and liberalisation died with ussr and the dreams of a Afghanistan then completely wiped out by the USA after the Saudi funded and led 9/11 attack
Miscommunication, I fully agree with you.
Thank you, I appreciate it
As for what the soviets did in Afghanistan: Aiding the local government against US funded jihadists.
I’m sorry but even for a left wing/commie you are beyond moronic m everything else you said was a cope for this one sentence. Have you ever done any research on what happened, how the soviet invasion was the start of their downfall and America supporting jihadis TO FIGHT BACK were the catalyst to the demise long term. Clearly my friend you don’t know geopolitical, read a few books on Soviets/Russia and think their some bastion of freedom and a fighter against oppression
I have done some research, thank you.
And no, the downfall of the USSR started earlier. Afghanistan had fuck all to do with it.
I notice however, you have not adressed any other answers you got to your posts. Guess you only could sort of do to one of mine. Not with any sort of substance, sadly.
What research buddy? And when was i talking or give a shit about when the downfall of the USSR was, that was never my point.
I notice however, you have not adressed any other answers you got to your posts. Guess you only could sort of do to one of mine. Not with any sort of substance, sadly.
You noticed correctly, your points are below what i expect from “left wing” you’re essentially on the same lack of knowledge as an American republican but on the far commie sucking to Russia.
Have you considered china? It’s a better country to suck up to, unlike European colonizers/imperialists like Russia. China is an actually productive nation unlike the USA and Russia
Well, have you asked yourself why NATO wants to expand to the east and stoking hate in those neighboring countries?
The most simple example is Ukraine. Why was the CIA in Ukraine in 2014 stoking a coup?
I do support Russia and their dislike of NATO making an ANTI Russia treaty then further and further encoraching near Russia. But I will say. These nations choose to not want to be in the Russian sphere
Weird how they always “chose” to do so after regime change. Weird.
These nations choose to not want to be in the Russian sphere
The word “choose” is doing a heavy lifting here. Most of those countries are being actively forced to throw themselves into a war to satisfy the west’s bloodlust. The pressure is done through countless of NGOs that fund the unrest.
A recommended reading to dispel the notion of an organic “choice” will be to investigate about the NED -> https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xw/wjbxw/202408/t20240809_11468618.html
I’ll give it a read, thank you
Thank you for giving it a chance.
Ah yes ukraine famously democratically elected russophobic nazis in 2014, the US us certainly didn’t intervene.
Russophobic nazis? Are being serious right now, that’s just moronic
I’m dead serious, have you not followed geopolitics the last 20 years?
The “attitudes of the nations around Russia” is not a thing. What you are referring to is the attitude of the liberal and reactionary regimes and their brainwashing propaganda they subjected their own people to in which Russia and communism are conflated and thus Russophobia is stoked and encouraged by the ruling classes and their superstructure in order to suppress communist sympathies.
As for Afghanistan, the USSR was literally there supporting a (somewhat) progressive, secular leftist(-ish) government against CIA armed terrorists. The situation in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion, much like in Iraq, was not great because of decades of US meddling and crushing sanctions following the victory of precisely those violent extremist elements that the Americans had armed, funded, trained and ideologically fostered (via Pakistan and Saudi Arabia) against the Soviet aligned government.
I don’t hate em, I wish their people all the peace and prosperity that all humans deserve. Imperial power is imperial power, though, and in the case of Russia, they’re not even pretending to do it in furtherance of leftist goals. Their government is fucked up and cronyist, doesn’t serve the interest of the people, and plays the same fuck fuck games the CIA does in promoting fascists. They’re basically diet America at this point.
