This is the only reasonable argument, but I know rabid liberals frothing at the mouth over more dead Russians don’t want to see it.
Still, for those who are still reasonable in their goals and ends, and the outcome they actually want to see, there’s only one solution.
The argument on the pro-UA side is that Putin has the “choice” to just up and leave Ukraine at any time. I’ve written before about why he doesn’t – not after all the sanctions, not after all the resources and troops committed. NATO/Europe will not say “alright you’re a good sport mate, we’ll drop the sanctions and pretend this whole thing never happened, deal?”. There’s a “warrant” out for Putin at the ICC, what makes anyone sincerely believe things can go back to where they were before for Russia?
It should hopefully be clear that the people calling for Putin to just “leave Ukraine” know they’re not being reasonable. These are some of the same people who also cheer when Ukraine gets new weapons to kill more Russians with. The goal for this segment is not peace, it’s actually to prolong the war.
I’m addressing the reasonable side, however, who might have been inadvertently taken in by this psyop. I mean, isn’t it weird how NAFO suddenly popped up everywhere and got media coverage? After they’re doing the exact same thing as the Lithuanian elves (because elves fight against orcs) did back in 2014, and it turned out the “elves” were NATO?
Saying Putin can just leave Ukraine is impotent rage. Yeah, sure, I’m just gonna give him a quick call. He really cares what some westerners think about his war, especially now that he has to contend against NATO intervention. I’m sure we can totally convince him he’s being a total nerd if we just yell about it on Twitter.
So if you actually want peace, what’s the reasonable solution?
Organise locally, petition your government to stop sending money and weapons to Ukraine. Organise and protest for a peace deal. I know it’s probably not what you want to hear.
But these weapons prolong the war. Just earlier today I saw a video of an APC full of 8+ Ukrainians get obliterated by a missile strike. Where did they get that APC do you think?
Do you want Ukrainians to stop dying? Me too. The most pragmatic way, the only one towards which we can actually do something, is to protest against our governments sending equipment that prolong this war.
Otherwise you have to realise this war is going to be fought to the last Ukrainian. Do you really think it’s weakening Russia in any lasting capacity? The fighting is happening in Ukraine. Ukraine has been losing population consistently since 1990 (a whole fifth of it lost, mostly, to emigration). What exactly is weakening in Russia? It’s Ukraine that’s being destroyed and will need to be rebuilt. It’s Ukraine that’s losing their population by the thousands. It’s Ukraine that’s shooting depleted uranium bullets on their own soil.
What you’re advocating for, when you advocate to prolong this war, is to kill every last Ukrainian and turn their country into a wasteland. The UA army is even using depleted uranium bullets now (courtesy of US and UK), which have polluted the land when they were used in Iraq. This is backed up by data, right? Depleted uranium has data behind it, it’s not speculation.
The reason the war is being prolonged is because it makes a lot of money to the military-industrial complex. It makes a lot of money to corporations due to the inflation. A blackrock affiliate said on hidden camera recently that when Russia blows up a grain silo, the price of wheat goes up. War is a great business opportunity, always has been. And then when Ukraine will need to be rebuilt, it’ll make Blackrock a lot more money.
But I’m not sure who they will rebuild the country for if there’s no one else left to live in Ukraine.
My solution is the only one that makes sense. Any other is purely impotent and just venting frustrations, not effecting any actual change.
I think you hit the nail on the head, it’s in the US’ and NATO’s best interest to keep this war going. Bringing Ukraine into NATO just creates an extra buffer between Russia and the rest of western Europe. I have no idea how this war ends, but I don’t think it ends with Ukrainian Jimmy Fallon dancing on Putin’s grave
Ukraine will never even get into NATO, after the war started they admitted it was just bait and they told zelensky to keep the lie up. Merkel admitted Minsk I and II were only signed to gain time to train and equip Ukraine. NATO provoked Russia into this war as much as they could.
There’s also the thought that if they can make Russia fail “hard enough” in the Ukraine, it will force Putin out in disgrace. This may be part of the “no negotiation, no way we can ever give him even a token win” mindset.
Even before any tangible aggression, there’s been years of degrading relationships between the West and Russia, and I suspect it’s because Putin wasn’t anywhere near as convenient a partner as Yeltsin was. He at least knows how to try to be cut-throat.
They’ve definitely been harping the “will this end Putin” angle since day 1 of the operation. Last year it was “ooh, look, the sanctions are moderately inconveniencing the oligarchs and they’ll surely toss him out any minute now”. This week it’s the Wagner guy. Probably next week it will be something even zanier-- I bet someone’s putting a bow on an OceanGate sub and mailing it to Moscow as we speak.
No matter how you feel about Putin personally and his actions, he has at least kept the country somewhat stable. Russia has historically had problems with seperatist movements, and there is huge amount of both atomic and conventional weapons and associated knowledge we’d sort of rather not end up scattered to the winds. If Putin were to be forced out, especially under any terms but his own, it’s doubtful there would be a smooth transfer of power. OTOH, I do await the popcorn if/when the West tries to pull another Juan Guiado and bless some convenient stooge with no local credibility.