- cross-posted to:
- apple_enthusiast@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- apple_enthusiast@lemmy.world
Who would’ve thought? This isn’t going to fly with the EU.
Article 5.3 of the Digital Markets Act (DMA): “The gatekeeper shall not prevent business users from offering the same products or services to end users through third-party online intermediation services or through their own direct online sales channel at prices or conditions that are different from those offered through the online intermediation services of the gatekeeper.”
Friendly reminder that you can sideload apps without jailbreaking or paying for a dev account using TrollStore, which utilises core trust bugs to bypass/spoof some app validation keys, on a iPhone XR or newer on iOS 14.0 up to 16.6.1. (ANY version for iPhone X and older)
Install guide: Trollstore
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Top comment by Chris (@SwiftySanders@urbanists.social) Liked by 7 people
I think all these changes that the EU is doing really only benefit large development firms like Spotify and Epic at the expense of the smaller developers. EU is adding additional regulations and requirements from Apple which smaller developers and indie developers will now have to comply with which will act as barriers to entry for some. That’s bad for competition…which I think was ultimately the goal for Epic and Spotify.
I love this braindead take regurgitated again and again and again. The DMA specifically does not apply to anyone smaller than a big monopolistic company. Apple barely made the cut themselves. The whole regulation is about forcing six companies - the Act only applies to them at all - to open up their walled gardens because they are strangling their respective markets and killing innovation, consumer choice and competition.
That is hilarious that they expect iOS users to pay a fee to sideload apps. Like comically evil.
I don’t pay anything to side load apps on my phone.
Probably bc I switched to Android.:-)
And I am never ever going back!
You sound like one of those people who said they’d move to Canada when Trump got elected the first time, and didn’t.
… more like someone who already moved away from the US after prior episodes of shitty politics, and was vindicated when Trump was elected
Lolz!:-)
There are several women who would be alive today if they had done so…
Stubbornness can be a positively adaptive trait, but obstinacy in the face of facts not so much, and the same with squeezing your eyes shut REALLY tight to avoid knowing what is going on right in front of you.
It’s not the users they’re charging, it’s the developers. Instead of having to pay 30%, they’re asking for 27% if they’re selling their app side loaded.
Defeating the whole purpose.
Those numbers are from using outside payment methods and not side loading.
And developers move the cost to users by increasing price on ios
This was how it worked for years for developers. First step of testing your app on an iOS device you have is to pay Apple a developer fee. This has been a thing even back in iOS 3 times.
Is it just a one time fee? And what were you paying for, testing to see if it qualified for the app store?
Seems like sideloading would be a different path and goal unless Apple is trying to retain control of that too. To me a lot of the point of users sideloading is to load whatever they want, not what the corporation that made the OS will allow.
Its $100/year for sideloading an infinite amount of alls that don’t disappear. If you don’t pay, you can only sideload up to 3 at a time and they will disappear after a week
I don’t think that’s true at present. You can do it with the free account to sign builds for your own devices. If you need to run a build on a device that isn’t your own, you’ll need a developer account to get a certificate to sign your builds. It’s not great but you don’t have to pay to test your own app out on your own devices.
You can only test 3 apps at a time and they disappear after a week. It doesn’t matter if the device is yours or not.
But not at all surprising.
You are both correct. They do stop things that would be ok, on say, a windows machine. For example, intercepting text messages at the system level. It prevents a lot of mischief but also stops legitimate software.
But we can already look at the Android market for guidance on what will happen. Few Android users venture out of the official store. It will take a large company with must-have apps to get people to go to another marketplace. Like Steam, Epic, or Facebook. Companies that either want to keep their cut or want to collect data to sell. This will likely not matter at all for small developers. They don’t have the clout.
There is this god-tier unofficial store called f-droid. Installing app from there is always a joy
There is one aspect people don’t really talk about yet, because it is not just about “allowing sideloading”. The law says “no self-preferencing”. That means that installing an app from for example F-Droid has to take the exact same amount of taps with the exact same UX as installing something from Google Play. Same goes for the App Store. The point is not to allow sideloading, but to erase the word sideloading from the vocabulary of the platform and make it just like Windows in that regard.
This is not just bringing iOS to where Android is, Android is still not compliant yet either. Neither is Windows by the way, because of how they treat Edge.
The only way it could work out badly for smaller software developers is if companies like Apple decide to recover their losses by charging heavily for development tools and resources.
If they can’t have walls around app distribution they might try and put them around app development instead.
They’ve been doing that since the beginning. You need a “developer license” in order to publish an app. Back in the day it was like $50 a year I think, but I haven’t done ios dev in about a decade so I don’t know if that’s changed.
A developer account is $100/year right now
App developers add value to their platform, any wall erected there would be torn down in moments. It would be biting the hand that feeds
It’s North Korea in the Apple world.
To be exact, DMA applies to platforms with >45M users in EU
Not even just that, you have to have at least 7.5B EUR turnover or 75B EUR market cap, AND 45M end users AND 10k business users AND keep this up for 3 years.
And even then it’s not automatic, you get nominated and get arguments, and only then you have to follow it.
I mentioned the six companies because they are the only ones that this currently applies to, and that will be the case for the foreseeable future as well. And even from them, it’s specific products. MacOS is not in scope for example, despite iOS being scoped in.
MacOS is not in scope for example, despite iOS being scoped in.
But is MacOS as much of a walled garden than iOS? Not in the slightest, right? I’m fairly certain you can install random software on MacOS can’t you?
It doesn’t matter if it’s a walled garden with the DMA. Yes, MacOS is not in scope, because it doesn’t have enough users, but Android and Windows totally are.
I had a user on here tell me the DMA is proof that Valve can’t be considered to be in a position of monopoly with Steam because they don’t show up on the list of companies concerned… People don’t understand what the DMA is at all.
Least neoliberal new urbanist
It’s brain dead because it’s a kneejerk response without anything backing it up.
EU regulations have a massive positive day-to-day effect on my life. It’s not like they get everything right, but on the grand scale, it’s working better than any other regulatory system I know.
@maynarkh You think app store policies and eu legislation only impacts you. 🤣
Large companies sponsor regulations all the time in an effort to make it harder for the smaller players or just plain greed.
Apple alluded to this in court that implementation of the and that the end result would absolutely be worse for smaller players than what was there before. Welp! 🤷🏾♂️ Smaller player gets screwed.
https://x.com/nikitabier/status/1750592825060921353?s=46&t=kj2zDgWA66Lbbc0rNac6uw
Apple didn’t sponsor the DMA, it was fighting tooth and nail against it. In general, EU politicians are harder to buy because they are more fragmented, and bribery is still illegal BTW.
That said, on the one hand, this fee structure is actually illegal under the DMA, the “core platform fee” nonsense is specifically illegal, and the EU is already on their ass about it.
On the other hand, this is just as if MSFT made Internet Explorer super expensive to license after they got hit by the same kind of regulation way back when. This just means that if you are an iOS app dev, you might want to release on something other than the App Store. I expect Google Play being available on iPhones pretty fast for example, or the Windows Store, or a bunch of other third party stores, and Apple can’t even preinstall or prefer the App Store on iOS over them. All the App Store being more expensive will do is make App Store fade to irrelevancy in the long run.
I fucking hate Apple with a passion.
Edit: many people seem to be a bit confused. I don’t own any apple garbage, and never will. I’ve only had an iPhone back in 2016 for a little while then replaced that shit with a pixel 6p. I don’t buy shit that makes my life difficult.
Sent from an iPhone
Nope. I’m an android user.
Why? Just get Android. Plenty of choices.
I’ve had one iPhone once and that was back in 2016.had if for a couple of months and it made me hate life and got rid of it and got me a pixel 6p. I’ve always been an android and Linux person. So, yeah, I hate apple with a passion
it sounds like tying your shoes probably makes your life difficult
Why? What have they done to you? If you don’t like their products, simply don’t buy them.
Apple has made a lot of anti-consumer decisions. And since Apple is a big market force, other companies follow suite when they pull off shit like that. There is a legitimate reason to not like Apple.
It’s not that simple.
Blue chat boxes affect everyone. RCS is a stepping stone but my daughter wouldn’t be caught dead with a green chat box. Tell me how that isn’t Apple using their dominance to prevent other players?
FaceTime (which they PROMISED to open up but never did) affects everyone.
The FaceTime software, would have done plentiful towards the industry & others, if it became open sourced.
But nope, they decided to make it exclusive for only within the Apple product bubble. Now we are supporting with so many video apl software/ tools. It’s just fragmented. It’s okey with competition but this is far too much. Also the quality, safety have lessoned.
But nope, they decided to make it exclusive for only within the Apple product bubble
No, they didn’t decide to do that at all. Not opening up FaceTime is a direct result of a patent lawsuit by VirnetX
Learning new things daily. Appreciate for the link.
sounds like your daughter is a typical sheep - perhaps THAT’S the issue you ought to try having an issue with rather than a company doing normal business.
LOL. What a charmer you are.
Blue chat boxes affect everyone
How do they affect you if you don’t even have an iPhone? You’ll never see those blue bubbles.
Besides, the defacto standard for chat apps is WhatsApp, hardly anyone uses iMessage anyway.
FaceTime (which they PROMISED to open up but never did) affects everyone.
This was due to a patent lawsuit. Blame VirnetX, not Apple.
If you are in a peer group of teens where 70% have iPhones the lack of decent interoperability with Android affects the 30% that can’t be part of the conversations.
It is not true that WhatsApp is the defacto standard everywhere. Might be true for you but large pockets where that ain’t true.
I am blaming VirnetX but we both know it could be solved if Apple wanted to solve it.
What makes you think I buy their garbage? Literal garbage.
Then what are you removed about?
Your mom
Removed by mod
Does that doll have a wallet?
Comment of the Year!
Pockets
I don’t get many of the English jokes/sarcasm, so not sure what to answer you. I just don’t buy their garbage.
Who would’ve thought? This isn’t going to fly with the EU.
Article 5.3 of the Digital Markets Act (DMA): “The gatekeeper shall not prevent business users from offering the same products or services to end users through third-party online intermediation services or through their own direct online sales channel at prices or conditions that are different from those offered through the online intermediation services of the gatekeeper.”
Apple has an annual legal budget of approximately infinity dollars. I assure you they are aware of this and they believe they are in compliance, even if just barely.
If challenged, they will have no problem fighting it — they have nearly as much cash on hand as the entire EU budget.
I hope the EU challenges this, and I hope the EU wins, but Apple isn’t going to be surprised by whatever happens.
The fine would be approximately 10% of Apple’s total revenue and the fine increases by 10% every violoation so I doubt that Apple can not accept the regulations.
Unfortunately, Apple has the resources, both legal and financial, to tie that up in the EU courts for decades.
We’ll see what happens
What if I told you one of those two can make new laws?
In one afternoon the Commission+Parliament can change the basis of whatever case Apple wants to fight. And they are up against Vestager - she makes multinational software companies bend the knee twice before lunch.
You’re underestimating what EU can get gone when they’re motivated to get it done.
Apple has also been known to ignore laws and pay fines for breaking them. The store is a major revenue stream so they might just do that.
Yup. If the only penalty is a fine, and that fine doesn’t scale to the business’ profits? A profitable enough business could simply factor in the fines as a cost of doing business.
Imagine you could make $1000 and only get fined $200 after the fact. No extra penalties. Just a flat $200 fine for every time you violate it. So as long as you expect to be able to top that $200 fine, a business will elect to just pay the fine and continue doing the illegal thing.
If the only penalty is a fine
The regulator has the power to ban sales, so I don’t think that particular “cost of doing business” line applies to this dispute.
There’s the letter and there’s the spirit of the law. Even if Apple has found a brilliant loophole the courts can just say well it’s technically true but you’re still breaking the law nonetheless, lawyer budget be damned.
The EU court is a Roman court, not an Anglo Saxon court. The spirit of the law is what matters, not the technicalities.
Second, the EU can change the laws that create the outcome they don’t like. By the people, for the people. Apple will play within the EU’s rules or Apple won’t play in the EU.
deleted by creator
I sure do love how global justice comes down to which party has more money to piss away rather than what’s right or wrong.
Yup. I’m just gonna sip this coffee while it all burns down.
They will get free publicity and show the users how they stand up to the overreaching government. Their users will eat it up.
I‘d be really surprised if Apple tried that.
They have to know that it violates the DMA. And the penalty for violating it can be up to 10% of their yearly worldwide revenue (not earnings!) for the first violation and up to 20% for repeated violations. I don‘t think they‘d risk that, especially as the EU really isn’t known for its leniency when someone intentionally breaks their rules.
Velociraptors testing the fence. It may be illegal but they may get away with it if they can argue "no actually’
On the positive side, those fines could fix the finances of a few smaller EU countries in a single sweep.
…true
I’m not too sure that these actions violate the letter of the law here, even though I agree that they’re 100% in violation of the spirit of the law.
It’s been some years since I’ve put the mobile development world behind me, in no small part because of Apple’s shenanigans, but the way I understand how this might work - Apple may be required to allow “iOS software” to be installed from third party stores, but software that runs on iOS must either be signed using a certificate that only allows installation in a developer or enterprise context (which require explicit and obvious user consent to that specific use case, and come with other restrictions such as the installation only lasting for a limited period of time), or through an “appstore” certificate that allows installation on any device, but the actual application package will need to go through Apple’s pipeline (where I believe it gets re-signed before final distribution on the App Store). All certificates, not just the appstore ones, are centrally managed by Apple and they do have the power to revoke, or refuse to renew, any of those certificates at-will.
If my understanding is correct (I’d appreciate if any up-to-date iOS devs could fact-check me), then Apple could introduce or maintain any restrictions they please on handling this final signing step, even if at the end of the day the resulting software is being handed back to developers to self-distribute, they can just refuse to sign the package at all, preventing installation on most consumer iOS devices, and to refuse to re-issue certificates to specific Apple developer accounts they deem in violation of their expected behavior. I haven’t read the implementation of the DMA in detail, nor am I a lawyer, so I’m not sure if there are provisions in place that would block either of these actions from Apple, but I do expect that there will be a long game of cat and mouse here as Apple and the EU continue to try and one-up the other’s actions.
But the article of the DMA says that the gatekeeper shall not prevent the business user to serve their product using other conditions than those of the gatekeeper’s platform. I think that would include Apple’s publishing guidelines.
I think that’s the rub, in my theoretical scenario, Apple is not blocking the distribution or sale of iOS applications through third-party means, they’d enforce their existing restrictions on and power over building iOS applications in the first place. Developers would absolutely still be able to distribute unsigned applications - end user iOS devices would just be unable to install them.
It sounds ridiculous to me, and as I wrote earlier, it would be a clear violation of the spirit of the DMA, but I don’t see any reason why this scenario would not be technically possible for Apple to pull off.
Installation is part of distribution
They already make it hard to make an app without xcode
Your description matches my understanding of the process (as someone who left iOS development a few years ago).
I don’t think that the DMA is technical enough to differentiate in this precise manner. Keep in mind that it was written by lawmakers and politicians who mostly don’t know how to even use a smartphone. They’d think that a certificate is a piece of paper with fancy signatures on it.
I could be wrong on this, and don’t know all the details in the case, but EU-law is often interpreted teleologically, meaning in a way that is the most in accordance with the objectives and goals of the legislation. So in this case, if Apple is in violation of the spirit of the law, the EU Courts would likely rule against Apple. (source: 1st year law student)
Those who buy apple products deserve each other.
Exactly my thoughts. “Let’s jailbreak this, bypass that, circumvent that one thing…” Why do you subject yourself to this with a device you paid hundreds of dollars for?
As much as I’d like to have an iPhone, I’d rather not.
As an aside, it’s the same thing with game consoles. Is the whole “you must be connected to the internet” thing still happening? That’s what has been preventing me from getting a new xbox, for example.
Steam Deck is pretty awesome in the offline gaming regard, if that’s what you might be looking for.
I’d argue that there are a lot of offline mode frustrations with Steam but none of them are Steam’s fault, they are all due to individual games online requirements or DRM implementations.
Uh, it’s actually quite the opposite, most games you need to at least open them one time while connected to the internet for offline to work.
Steam literally warns you for every game. It tells you if you need to be online once or online every time. I don’t think you can blame them. If you buy games that require an online activation you can’t get upset that you can’t play offline.
Example games:
- Always online
-
Singleplayer gameplay requires an active Internet connection
-
- Online activation
-
This game’s first-time setup requires an active Internet connection
-
I do wish that this wasn’t hidden inside of the “Steam Deck Compatibility” section. (There is a yellow box about third-party DRM outside, but for the details you need to click the Steam Deck Compatibility box) But that is my only complaint.
Personally I just don’t buy these games.
- Always online
But that is not the fault of Steam Deck, which was discussed.
At least you can run the games in offline, even when you have to log in the first time.
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I remember way back when I had my iPod Touch 4 (haven’t touched Apple since then) that I (intentionally) jailbroke it simply by tapping a button on a website in Safari. It was an exploit that used a bug in iOS’s PDF software, I believe.
I remember that technique as well. I thought it was neat.
I have a macbook and I’m quite happy, what am I doing wrong?
Honestly? Nothing. People just say this kind of thing because we like to tinker with our devices. If what you bought satisfies your needs and you don’t need more, that’s just ok. Android/windows/linux has a lot more conveniences for my use, so that’s what I go for, but not everyone is the same
Android/windows/linux has a lot more conveniences for my use
That’s kind of my point. I don’t get the aggression people have for someone using different brand.
I don’t get the aggression people have for someone using different brand.
People identify the business decisions that Apple makes to be anti-consumer. They then feel frustration and anger for users of Apple products as support for their products only emboldens Apple to continue making anti-consumer decisions, such as the subject of this article.
Apple is a microcosm representation of the evils of capitalism for many people and they project their feelings about it - powerlessness, disgust, anger, etc. - onto users of Apple products. People associate support for iPhones which enjoys a 61% US market share as support for the boot of capitalism on our throats regardless of whether the Apple user doesn’t know, doesn’t care, or doesn’t agree.
Also Apple’s anti-consumer decisions usually transfer to other places (such as Android) aswell, because they have a lot of influence on the rest of the market.
Pretty much this. If other brands see the vitriol, then they might think “well, guess not being that way is a way to be competitive”.
If everyone sounds perfectly cool with that facet, then everyone else goes “sweet, the Apple way gives the vendor more control over the customer, and control over the customer is valued, if we think we can get away with it”
If it just remains Apple who did it i wouldn’t mind but there they are a bit of a product leader.
Off forging the way ahead for under consumer BS everywhere.
Agreed. This is what I was implying by citing their OS market share in mobile devices in the US and I could have clarified better.
So kind of moral consumerism thing?
If labeling it helps you to understand it, sure.
I just wanted to clarify if I understood the point correctly, labeling just shortens the answer.
Tribalism.
Sure, but tribalism with a brand is just beyond my understanding (hyperbole), - it’s so stupid.
Apple influence the market a lot. So paid side-loading can propagate to other companies if Apple can pull it off.
For sure! An amount of “hate” for apple, or any company for that matter, is totally ok. Sometimes they make decisions that screw consumers just for a buck more. No reason to hate on users, tho. That’s the same as saying anyone who uses a gas vehicle to go from one place to another is in favor of global warming
Sure, but why hate on apple users?
A MacBook is the only Apple product I’m happy with cause it’s actually open in terms of being able to install any app I want and modify some things like how windows are managed.
I had an iPhone, but for my use case they are just to expensive. I have a 100 euro android phone that does everything I ever need.
Come back when you have a problem with your keyboard*, or your drive, or charging issue. Repairability is downright bad now.
I like OSX well enough.* I like the form factor of the MacBooks now that they have escape keys again. It’s been 9 years since they made a MacBook that was reasonably decent to work on from the inside though. Even swapping a broken screen out is* like 3 hours now.
I’v been using mac books over a decade so not sure when I need to come back here. I was unhappy with the usbc only mac book pro and considered switching but the m1 fixed issues i had, so I’m here again. Just imagine that there are people out there who don’t care to much about repair-ability.
You don’t care that a mainboard replacement will cost you $1100+ but a component-level repair is less than half of that and doesn’t e-waste a whole damn board? You don’t care that it would cost even less if Apple just sold the damn parts and supplied schematics?
No? I care that I have reliable piece of hardware that is physical sturdy, that I don’t have to inform myself on different hardware configurations before buying but just look at my budget and buy the one I can afford, I care about the way fonts are displayed, I care a lot about magsafe since it saved my laptop so many times, I care about the touch pad - since I even do 3d work with it and forgot how to use a mouse.
Why is it so difficult to understand that people have different priorities? Like I can see, how repair ability might be important for someone, not everyone is like me.
Also in more than a decade I didn’t have to replace anything.
Also in more than a decade I didn’t have to replace anything
Honestly I doubt that. I’ve seen many Macbook failures in my time and they are always things other laptops don’t suffer. I purchase and track IT software and hardware for an organization of over 10k people and I’ve seen what lasts and what doesn’t. The regular laptops we use? We get 4 years out of nearly all of them, and 6 if we replace the batteries and upgrade any dated bits. There are the odd designs that failed early (HP Elitebooks from a few years ago…) but most are reliable.
There are two devices I avoid buying at all costs and make clients give me a lot of supporting rationale for, because they have poor build quality and are utterly unrepairable: Microsoft Surface, and Apple Macbooks. At scale, running these is incredibly expensive for no good reason.
Example of an issue that has happened: client was running a bunch of VMs and filled up the SSD on their Dell laptop. I replaced it with a larger SSD rather than buy an entire device. That happens on a Mac? Tough because that SSD is soldered in. On that note, good luck extracting that data if the mainboard fails. That was fun telling someone they lost a mountain of data.
Honestly I doubt that.
Not sure why I would lie, but feel free to not believe me. Maybe I’m just lucky, I had three macbook pros and the only problem I had was a battery dying on one, but it was close to where I needed a new one anyway. And I need my hardware to be reliable and the conditions I use it are rather suboptimal (live events). Never turned off on me or died during a gig. I had a windows machine from a venue once - it started updating 10 minutes before the gig.
Like I don’t care about the brand, I have a cheap android phone because it gives me exactly what I need. Just happened that apple produces a device that fits my needs. If I ever see anything that fits my bill but is cheaper, I would take it in a second. I don’t have any brand loyalty. Switched from olympus, to nikon to sony - if you into photography you will get it.
There are 3 kind of people when talking about Apple: 1- fanatics who support Apple, 2-fanatics who hate Apple and think you cannot like it, 3- and finally those who just look at the product without thinking about the brand but what you can do with the product (if it suits your needs or not). It seems like you are that third kind of person.
You’re supporting manipulative evil business practices.
Don’t get people that upset by using microsoft or google products. It something about apple that makes people quite unhinged.
Uhh no. If you think that, you’re not paying attention at all. Most of the main feed of Lemmy is raging at Google right now and Microsoft is only catching a break because Bill Gates recently got together with ultra wealthy people writing a letter asking to be taxed.
Not the companies the users of their products.
We’ve been pushing people to lessen their reliance on Google for ages now. We’ve even been developing a replacement software store Suite called FUTO! The difference between Apple and Google though, is that Apple’s users continue on despite Apple being so very obviously evil. Google is at least being a creep about it.
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Love that you yourself used a youtube link. I find it very interesting how judgmental people almost always put themselves outside the measures they apply to other people.
but apple sets “standards” that other companies blindly follow. it’s the reason why we have non-removable batteries, no charger inside the box, no audio jack, etc.
IOS is the worst operating system i have ever used
Why do people buy it?
Because it’s familiar, easy, pretty and does a lot of thinking for you.
Familiar only if you worked with it before.
Easy… fair enough.
Pretty… debatable.
Apple established itself as a luxury brand. So it gives customers this “prestige feeling”. That’s at least my take.
Yeah, I agree. I used it for 6 months for work and it’s not my thing, but plenty of people seem to love it. I guess the high price is actually a feature.
Think different, but stay the same, In Apple’s world, that’s the game. A touch of irony, don’t you think? In a sea of similar, we all sink.
I have both an iPhone and a Samsung. Both work well but I still prefer the iPhone though it’s a 6 years old one. I’m not an expert but I feel like every app use more familiar choices for design.
Because it’s a brand and people are morons who need external validation. Same reason for most brands - you pay a lot more for the same thing so you can seem cool or like you have money.
Because it’s cool apparently.
It’s cool because it is expensive so it is a status symbol. Just like wearing expensive jewelry is cool.
I don’t need people to think I’m cook if that is their criteria.
Or get a fold phone if you want to burn money 💰
y’all people that keep saying ‘status symbol’ or ‘expensive’ really haven’t bought a phone in like a decade, right? because android phones are costing the same as apple flagships. how ignorant can you be?
Why do you think the prices rose? Maybe a little inflation but also because they wanted to be perceived as as good or better than the iPhone. So they had to match or exceed the price.
And this price match won’t change consumer perception overnight. Apple already had the “premium” perception and it will stick around for a long while.
Have you actually sat down and used iOS as your full time phone OS for a week? If you’re used to android then yes there’s quirks you have to learn. But after being a diehard android user for years I could never go back. And that’s that I still use both every day since my work phone is Android and my person phone is an iPhone.
I just can’t not have a back button that’s always in the same place!
What button? Haven’t used a button on android for years now. Except power+volume ofc
One of the 3 virtual buttons that always display (4 for me since I have the accessibility button displayed also). (Background, homepage, and back- reverse order for standard android. I have Samsung)
Why not use the standard swiping gestures, it’s much more convenient and much faster.
I hate gesture controls. Even more fiddly and imprecise than fake buttons. Pinch zoom, scroll, and change page are more than enough.
How come it’s more fiddly? It works soooo smooth and reliable. And that coming from a dude who can’t type one error-free word on the phone.
lol the gesture controls on modern smartphones are overwhelmingly less fiddly (read: not at all) than your horrible excuses for defending an outdated piece of technology like ‘buttons’ when much better options exist.
lol back button - how freaking 2000s. buddy we just move our finger left on the screen and we go back. like are you a caveman? this is Android fans these days, crowing about obsolete pieces of their technology like it was good. it wasn’t then it really isn’t now.
Swiping from the left is almost universally a go back in ios.
With android’s gestures it simulates pressing the back button which is really awful. But iOS does swipes correctly.
Only if apps follow the IOS design patterns. I know at my previous company, we didn’t. And neither does the official Reddit app: https://frankrausch.com/ios-navigation
Hahaha iOS swipe is awful.
If you 4 finger swipe now it goes back to previous app. Do it again now it goes to the app you just left. Wait a few seconds and it’s anybodies guess where it goes.
Even worse if you bring down the “notification” screen… Supposedly swiping up makes it go away, but it rarely works. Same with pulling up the app bar while in ful screen apps - that takes two swipes, and the second one has to be just so, not too fast, not too slow, and within some weird timing - try it too soon and it just doesn’t respond.
Apple’s swiping system is just a fucked up mess. (I use iOS all day long).
Swiping to go back to a previous app isn’t the best, but Androids implementation is just as janky. Once you figure out what the delay is for the current app to be the “latest app” then it’s not awful.
Maybe iPad OS is different, but I don’t ever have any issues with full screen apps on regular iOS.
iOS always felt slower tbh. Like it takes an extra step or two to do similar tasks. That and I love sideloading, rooting, and putting my homescreen apps towards the bottom too much to ever fully switch over.
I chose Apple for my work phone for only one reason: battery life. It is a wildly inferior experience for anyone who wants or needs more than just a phone. The way I have to send photos and documents through other services just to get them to my computer, the utter lack of control of the phone’s file system, no sideloading…
If for any reason what you need can’t or won’t work through the Apple ecosystem, iPhones go from feeling pretty smooth to being an obstacle, and I’m not paying $1000+ for an obstacle.
I use iOS every day.
It SUCKS.
If all you want to do are the things Apple decides you can do, and want to do things only Apple’s way, it’s great.
I choose Apple phones for my work phone, since it’s managed by the company anyway, so even an Android would be locked down. And it’s not like I would use a corp phone for the things I do with my personal phone - there’s too much risk in that.
Apple won’t even allow apps to sync photos automatically. I don’t want to use their cloud, at all. I just want photos I take synced between my devices using a single tool. No reason for those photos to go anywhere else.
Currently I sync files, automatically, between a dozen devices. All my photos from every laptop and Android phone go to the same folder on one machine. Anything I download with any device is available, almost immediately, for all other devices.
Except for my iOS devices. They can’t play in this game, even though the same apps are available on iOS.
If all you want to do are the things Apple decides you can do, and want to do things only Apple’s way, it’s great.
Which is what most people want to do, and that’s why so many people love the iPhone.
Supposedly photo sync will back up all your photos to a local machine. iCloud does everything you’d want it to do minus the local server part. But once again that’s not what 99% of people want to do.
I wanted a fast laptop without a fan and with a big haptic feedback touchpad. Happy to hear about non-Apple options for this.
Think you might have confused iOS and MacOS
These are fascinating requirements. Mind explaining?
Fast, quiet, big touch pad. What’d fascinating or out of the world here? These are just kind of things most people want, not everyone wants to manually update their kernel or whatever.
I’ve got an Asus ZenBook (specifically this one. It does have a fan, but it’s pretty quiet. I barely notice it most of the time. It’s pretty fast, too. Don’t know how large of a touchpad you want, though.
Doesn’t look bad, but I’m guessing it doesn’t have a haptic touchpad? (Clicking is equally easy anywhere on the touchpad, because there isn’t actually a click, the click is simulated by a vibrator.)
No, there’s no haptic touchpad. TBH, I didn’t even know that was a thing.
I think Apple trademarked having a big touchpad. And possibly also one that works.
lol this is such a weird blanket statement that means nothing. congratulations, you can baselessly slam something you don’t like. Why are you the way you are, is the better question. iOS has clear benefits and there are a plethora of reasons of why one would choose an iPhone over the other options.
but GO OFF, random internet pleb.
Privacy and security mostly I would imagine
Closed source software can’t be audited, so it can’t be secure. If software isn’t secure, the exploits rid it of any privacy.
See: The bimonthly remote takeover bugs that keep getting found. Like this one: https://citizenlab.ca/2023/09/blastpass-nso-group-iphone-zero-click-zero-day-exploit-captured-in-the-wild/
“Oh whoopsy doopsy, looks like your iPhone, camera, files, GPS and more were accessible to someone who sent you an iMessage… for the third time this year”
Closed source software can’t be audited, so it can’t be secure
That’s the biggest load of bullshit I’ve ever heard.
Closed source software is audited all the time.
Ok let me rephrase - nobody without a conflict of interest can audit a closed source application. If Microsoft paid for an audit of Windows, that doesn’t tell you anything about whether or not Windows is backdoored.
The audit is not for you. Closed source software is audited all the time, but the results of those audits are generally confidential. This is about finding security bugs, not deliberate backdoors.
The key with this is who do you trust. Sure, open source can be audited by everyone, but is it? You can’t audit all the code you use yourself, even if you have the skills, it’s simply too much. So you still need to trust another person or company, it really doesn’t change the equation that much.
In practice, most common open source software is used and contributed to by hundreds of people. So it naturally does get audited by that process. Closed source software can’t be confirmed to not be malicious, so it can’t be confirmed to be secure, so back to my original point, it can’t be private.
I didn’t go into that much detail in my original comment, but it was what I meant when I first wrote it. As far as “does everyone audit the software they use”, the answer is obviously no. But, the software I use is mostly FOSS and contributed to by dozens of users, sometimes including myself. So when alarms are rung over the smallest things, you have a better idea of the attack vectors and privacy implications.
In practice, most common open source software is used and contributed to by hundreds of people. So it naturally does get audited by that process.
Just working on software is not the same as actively looking for exploits. Software security auditing requires a specialised set of skills. Open source also makes it easier for black-hat hackers to find exploits.
Hundreds of people working on something is a double-edged sword. It also makes it easy for someone to sneak in an exploit. A single-character mistake in code could cause an exploitable bug, and if you are intent on deliberately introducing such an issue it can be very hard to spot and even if caught can be explained away as an honest to god mistake.
By contrast, lots of software companies screen their employees, especially if they are working on critical code.
I can’t say I am surprised. Apples view is that since they made the device and provided the software they are entitled to a cut of anything that happens on it, because that software makes use of something Apple created.
I don’t agree and think it is a crazy view. But that sort of corporate mindset is one of the reasons I have never been big on Apple products.
I think it is not open source so they feel like they control everything about that. The EU seems like it disagrees with that.
Apples view
So, these companies will throw whatever shit at a wall to see what sticks.
Their “view” is constantly probing how low people’s standards are so they can do the least while charging the most.
It’s called “maximizing profit.”
Yeah, I mean or you could just stop buying Apple products.
My rationale is this: apple users love spending money, so they can go ahead and spend it.
Fuck’em.
I’m an Apple laptop user with a Linux server. I love Linux and have thought about switching many times, but I don’t for the following reasons:
My Apple computers have lasted me twice as long as any other brand I’ve owned, and they don’t really die—they just get so old that I want a new one.
I never have to worry about incompatible hardware at any time, nor do I have to check for compatibility before upgrading my OS.
They never charge for a new OS, all of their basic software is free, and in some cases better than Microsoft Office.
Whatever product I use from them, it is definitely going to feel high quality.
The screens are always really nice, and everything is guaranteed to look crisp and clear.
They cost more money, but it isn’t like they give you nothing for it. If Linux isn’t a great option for some reason, an Apple device is going to be much less exploitative with advertising and spyware than Windows is.
I understand where the hate comes from, but I wish some Apple haters would back up for a minute and realize that there are power users who have perfectly good reasons to like that hardware.
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A say “sad” because you could call me a “Google-hater” but never in my life have I wasted time shitting on everything anti consumer thing they do.
I use Apple products, think they’re a shitty company, but who offer the best products in a world of shitty companies. And as someone who’s used Macs since 2007, I’ve noticed time and time again how people will shit on me and my choice of computer while I never shit on theirs in return.
Do I removed about Windows on the occasions I have to use it? Yes, of course, because it’s fucking terrible/ not what I’m used to, but I appreciate that some people are happy to use it, or have to for whatever reason. My criticism of the OS isn’t a personal attack on anyone who uses it.
But yeah, my choice of computer is a personal failing, apparently.
🤷🏻
Amen to that.
I’m yet to find a single thing I need to do on my phone that required a side loaded app too. I’m sure there are cases, and I am glad the option exists, but it isn’t like people with a normal iPhone are completely shackled.
I think a lot of power users out there would be pleasantly surprised if they took another look at Apple with a more open mind.
Apple MacBooks and iMacs don’t have this side-loading issue like their mobile devices do. You can install anything you want to as long as it’s supported on a Mac, and from anywhere you want. So they are more or less a more premium Linux variant. I’m not sure why you came in here thinking this discussion applied to non mobile devices.
The base of this chain I’m replying to says “Apple products”. The comment that I am directly responding to is calling out all Apple users. More broadly the thread is about phones, but this particular side stream was about Apple in general, and I was providing my two cents.
People like being fucked
True that. If people actually cared we would see better things in the world for example - Firefox dominating the market. Now I don’t care if people use Brave/Samsung/Chrome/Vivaldi/Edge but the fact that they may all lead to Google dictating the Open Web sucks.
I love that you bring up web browsers as an example while saying that Apple users don’t care enough about the technological landscape. Safari is the leading competitor to chrome! Without those Apple users sticking to the browser they know on the system you ridicule, the problem you’ve identified would be worse.
As counter point, this law also prevents Google and Microsoft from going this route.
So as a non apple user, this helps us in the long run.
So… frontloading?
Apple is doing this thing where legislation applies to them and they just try not following it anyway. Trump is truly influential.
Ownloading
Classic Apple.
Remember their slogan from back then? “does more, costs less!”
Classic.
Just like when google silently removed their slogan “don’t be evil”.
Just like when google silently removed their slogan “don’t be evil”.
They didn’t just remove it, they changed it to “do good”. I’m not sure what that means to Google but it sort of looks like “implement the neoliberal cyberpunk hellscape no one asked for”
of course Apple plans to charge fees for sideloading, a bunch of scumbags, but fear not, Apple fan boys cult members will regurgitate Apple’s propaganda as gospel
Already happening, just look at some comments
The fanboys make me angrier than Apple. It’s so frustrating to discuss something with someone who is so brainwashed.
think about this: to me, all you really toxic people (including the OP, for shame) against Apple are the ones looking quite brainwashed, culty, back-bitey and very small minded. probably because you are. think about that for a second before you snap reply - there ARE more than just your side to this buddy.
What is your side to this? Can you explain it to me?
A lot of the comments I’ve read who are on apples side, make claims that are not realistic or don’t give any reasons at all for being on apples side.
Friendly reminder that you can sideload apps without jailbreaking or paying for a dev account using TrollStore, which utilises core trust bugs to bypass/spoof some app validation keys, on a iPhone XR or newer on iOS 14.0 up to 16.6.1. (ANY version for iPhone X and older)
Install guide: Trollstore
Another alternative is SideStore which allows to refresh apps from your phone without a computer. Just a WiFi connection. It has the benefit of working with any ios versions including the latest ones that TrollStore doesn’t support.
Yep, its a better AltStore so only 3 apps unless you are vunerable to MDC. For those without a pc, paying for a signing service like maplesign is an option too.
As someone who uses both Android and iOS, I appreciate my Pixel 8 Pro running GrapheneOS (a custom version of Android) more and more.
Do you face recognition or use a password? I can’t get passed pixel 3 for fingerprinting and even that cuz I can manually lock off the truely unstrustable method fingerprinting. That but not well enough. I honestly despise the gorramn pixel and can’t wait til my Librem gets useable.
I use the fingerprint sensor. Don’t get a Librem, it’s a scam and security on it is a disaster. Stick with GrapheneOS. Heck, stock is more secure than the Librem, believe it or not. I wouldn’t touch that thing with a 10ft pole.
I got it already and I have zero doubt in it. Your accusation will not cut me any doubt. I’ve heard that bit extensively and I have an entirely different awareness of it.
Also got Librem 13. Dunno what actually broke on it but I swapped the NVMe on it and sent back within the 3y warranty I bought on it and they sent me it again but it didn’t work and sent it back and they sent me a brand new one. That was after two years and the replacement lasted another two years. Dunno what’s really wrong with it and haven’t messed with trying to fix it myself out of the warranty now yet
I tried for the months to get GrapheneOS to work and made zero success with installing it. Tried CalyxOS after all that and got it done twice with success one one day on each two Pixel 3 and Pixel 4 (XL’s on both, total two days).
How do you get Pixel 8 work with the fingerprint? My 4 stuck me with the gorramn password. Which, in all fairness was the best thing ever because that is thus far the most secure device I’ve set up. Nothing but the password is truely to ONLY secure device arrangeable.
Having different functions available for different passwords at varying levels of accessfor shorter security is the best option that does NOT exist. Even the Librem doesn’t get that higher level of tiered access setup…*sigh…yet.
I won’t stop you from using the Librem but at the end of the day a false sense of security is more damaging than anything else. I can with 100% certainty assure you that even your average Samsung phone has better security than the Librem. A phone with absolute abbysmal and ancient hardware that Purism sells for 10-20 times the cost of an equivalently powerful Android phone from AliExpress. Heck, even the PinePhone (which also runs Linux) sells for like $200 and has better hardware. Purism is a scam company. I know you don’t want to hear this but it’s the truth.
You set up the fingerprint sensor on the Pixel 8 like any other Android phone. Either during first setup or by going into your security settings.
I know better than to ever give Samsung any money let alone any respect or delusion of security.
At the end of the day you are trusting someone you don’t know with all sense of identity, privacy, and knowledge of yourself: location, history, and money.
Fuck that. I’ll take FOSS.
As to fingerprint. How so? There’s no longer a fingerprint reader.
The fact is there’s no privacy without security and the Librem doesn’t have the latter.
The sensor is built into the display.
You trust Samsung. I’ll take you word with a grain of salt.
As to pixel. Ty. I’ll have to look into that.
This is a rather specific question, but can you cast audio from arbitrary apps to WiFi speakers from your Pixel? Similar to airplay on iOS (if that’s what it is called)?
Via Chromecast if the speaker supports it yeah
Exactly the same here P8P gOS and using an iPhone as a testing device (Jailbreaking etc)
Thinking about switching to GrapheneOS after seeing Lou Rossman do an episode on it but I think later he walked back later due to some corporate reason.
How’s your experience with it been?
The only issue he had with it was because he got into a fight with the lead developer lmao. There’s a lot of drama surrounding him unfortunately but it doesn’t affect the project in any way whatsoever.
No complaints and everything works just fine. There are some apps that require you to disable memory tagging or enable native code debugging but I’m glad to have this kind of control.
Ok that’s good to hear, wasn’t up to date on the drama and I’m glad it’s not OS related. Have a spare media phone, will try installing it tonight. Thanks for the clarification.
Because of course they are! There goes my plan to try an iPhone when side loading becomes available.
It’ll only be available in the EU.
Why do you want an iPhone?
I know Apple hate party in here but as a person with a bunch of self built PCs couple Linux boxes…
iPhones are great. No messing around, way more private than stock Google, and they work for… well, I’m on five years with mine. Still gets updates too!
If you have the money for an iPhone and consider privacy as important, why not go with a Pixel/GrapheneOS or another phone with Lineage/Divest?
Someone downvoted you INSTANTLY, that’s fucked up.
I choose iOS because it requires zero messing about. I use like no apps on my phone and want it to just be fast forever with no work. I don’t want to have to think about it at all.
Apple fanboys coming in :) I get your point, iOS is still easier to set up than stock android due to all of the restrictions that it has (I’m a Android main with an iPhone for testing). I am the opposite, I like tweaking everything that I can and can not, main reason why I jailbroke my iPhone, but I do have time to do that while some just want a working system out of the box.
I am the opposite. I want a phone that’s locked down and super secure and requires no fiddling.
Computer? I want to make it mine.
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Here is my problem with a nonstandard operating system on a phone.
A rely on it to run my very small business. I don’t want to get blocked by an app I rely on or suddenly have it stop working due to running an unofficial operating system.
So it’s either stock Android or stock iOS. iOS I’d say is more private than Android, so I stick with them.
I don’t see how google would block something unless you are rooted. Custom os’es pass all the security checks besides the os integrity one that doesn’t affect your daily use.
No they don’t, at least not necessarily. I had the xiaomi.eu ROM on my old phone and it broke SafetyN*t checks, and as a consequence at the very least one of my banking apps refused to work (this one I actually need to verify credit card charges in some cases, it’s not just a nice to have unfortunately).
I probably would have been better off rooting it since then you can bypass it I think, but I didn’t want to have to reapply root after every update.
I’m not worried about Google blocking it but rather the app I use to say, “hey something weird is going on with this phone better block/ban that account.
I know the risk is minimal, but it’s not could be a huge disruption to my income, so it’s just not worth it.
Yeah I used to be in the same boat but then apple kept being apple. I’ll get a pixel + lineage after my phone breaks.
I’ll… iPhone. I plug into my PCs, incremental image backup. I phone break? New phone is now old phone. I lose phone? Still same phone, but new device.
Unga bunga. Ez phone no think. Don’t care. Phone do bad? Same phone but new. No fuckin.
Google phones have much better customizability and as result have better privacy than glass paperweight you mentioned.
I’m on five years with mine. Still gets updates too!
Nexus 6 still gets updates 10 years later.
Still they are not as good as Linux-first phones like PPP.
You need to be running a custom rom to get better privacy than iOS. Stock android is full of Google spyware.
What’s PPP?
PinePhone Pro. The one on Rockchip instead of Allwinner.
Yeah okay. Still don’t wanna deal with that shit.
Quick edit: does that phone perform like my iPhone?
no
They have great build quality and software, it’s a shame Apple has some terrible policies about their ecosystem and repairabilty of their devices, wasting the hard work of so many if their brilliant engineers by being greedy.
I’m not sure how this would work in practice. Developers distributing apps independently to be sideloaded wouldn’t be submitting them to Apple to review, and sideloaded code may not even have an identifiable developer to charge.
I suppose Apple could implement some sort of rigid signing system, but I think the EU would see that as just another abuse of power.
As far as I know iPhones have never allowed unsigned code to run.
Yeah, the first operation of every jailbreak was to disable this protection.
Well they would have to allow unsigned code to run under the DMA, wouldn’t they?
I don’t know the details of the DMA, it’s definitely possible to provide code-signing to developers that does not go through the app store.
An example of this in practice is Firefox addons. You need to get your extension signed for people to install it, but you can distribute it however. Mozilla of course doesn’t charge for signing though. It’s just to give them the ability to ban an extension found to be malicious.
No, macOS allows sideloading apps that are still signed by Apple.
You can run unsigned code on macOS. Apple makes it seem scary and dangerous, but it is possible.
Yes, but that’s separate from what I’m talking about.
This is most likely how they’re planning on allowing it. Gatekeeper is the macOS tech they use to keep unsigned code from running yet can be from anywhere on the web.
