So, you’re blaming Ukrainians for causing their own famine? Sounds stupid.
The only stupid part here is equating Ukranians with kulaks.
I mean, if millions of Ukrainians were starving to death, why didn’t Soviets reduce the amount exported food to zero percent and gave it to the starving Ukrainians instead?
I mean, they literally imported net more food than they exported. Did you miss the part that the famine wasn’t restricted to Ukraine?
In 1930, Stalin declared: “In order to oust the ‘kulaks’ as a class, the resistance of this class must be smashed in open battle and it must be deprived of the productive sources of its existence and development. … That is a turn towards the policy of eliminating the kulaks as a class.”
This statement is very much in line with a Marxist framework. Note also that he just stated this – he did not have the power to make his word become law and I tracked the quote to an article Stalin wrote for a newspaper to correct an earlier article. It was literally an analysis and not party policy on kulaks.
Nevertheless, eliminating a class is entirely different from eliminating the people that make up that class. As social classes are a reflection of the material conditions and specifically the relationship to the means of production, if you change these relationships you will inevitably change the classes. Like how some nobles in feudal France became bourgeois and proto-capitalists around the time of the 1789 revolution.
Ukraine in 2021 should care more about their declining population (1/5th of it lost in total since 1990) than trying to keep alive the myth of a genocide 100 years ago from a country that does not exist any more.
They should have stopped exporting food entirely, I mean, their own people were literally dying! And you’re right, my bad, I meant people across the whole Soviet Union.
So, you’re saying they should’ve just let people in other parts of USSR die, instead of trying to alleviate the famine across the country the best they could by redistributing food where it was most needed?
What I meant was proof that weather was the only factor that caused that specific famine. Tauger says it played an important role in the famine, but the government was also responsible for it:
It wasn’t the only factor, and I never made that claim. What’s being said is that there is no evidence for the famine being any sort of intentional genocide on the part of the Soviets.
Also, note that most of the famines in that article took place during the USSR era.
Revolutionary period was an incredibly turbulent period. There was a civil war and western powers invaded USSR in 1918. They did the best they could under the circumstances. Note that USSR never had a famine after WW2 when it was finally able to develop in relative peace.
So, you’re saying they should’ve just let people in other parts of USSR die, instead of trying to alleviate the famine across the country the best they could by redistributing food where it was most needed?
That’s not how it works. Having a central authority to “redistribute” resources has shown time and time again that it leads to injustice and corruption. Don’t worry that Lenin and Trotsky and their friends were very well fed all through the famine.
You’re woefully ignorant on the subject you’re attempting to debate. Perhaps at least read the study I provided in the earlier comment to get an idea of what you’re talking bout.
No, that’s not what I said. I said exports to outside the USSR should have been halted.
Which would result in people starving in other parts of USSR. So, yes that is what you’re actually advocating for here without having the intellectual honesty to admit it.
Okay, there’s no consensus on whether the famine was an intentional genocide or not, but there’s some evidence that it was caused by failed policies of the USSR.
There is literally no evidence to suggest that the famine was in any way intentional. However, nobody is disputing the fact that failure of policy contributed to the famine.
Maybe because a lot of advances were made on food production (outside of the USSR) and a lot of reforms were made within the USSR that introduced market-economy elements (perestroika) and increased government transparency (glasnost)?
You’re incredibly historically ignorant. Much has been written on the subject and you should try to at least minimally educate yourself on the subject you’re attempting to debate. Also, go look up when perestroika and glasnost happened to see just how utterly absurd you’re being. Here are some starting resources for you.
USSR doubled life expectancy in just 20 years. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years. the Semashko system of the USSR increased lifespan by 50% in 20 years. By the 1960’s, lifespans in the USSR were comparable to those in the USA:
Quality of nutrition improved after the Soviet revolution, and even CIA data suggests they ate just as much as Americans after WW2 peroid while having better nutrition:
The Soviet Union had the highest physician/patient ratio in the world. USSR had 42 doctors per 10,000 population compared to 24 in Denmark and Sweden, and 19 in US:
Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe:
Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time:
A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life:
This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development.
Explain exactly how halting food exports to places that aren’t part of the USSR would starve people in the USSR.
The study I linked explains it in detail. You obviously didn’t bother reading it.
In order to oust the ‘kulaks’ as a class, the resistance of this class must be smashed in open battle and it must be deprived of the productive sources of its existence and development. … That is a turn towards the policy of eliminating the kulaks as a class.
Doesn’t say what you think it says. Go read up on who the kulaks were and what they were doing. Also, please show me concrete policy from the Soviet leadership that shows intent to create a famine in Ukraine.
That doesn’t say anything about the degree of qualification of such doctors.
Life expectancy in USSR clearly demonstrates that the doctors were perfectly qualified.
Also, you’re linking to a lot of studies. I need to know, how can reliable data be obtained from places under totalitarian regimes? Is it possible?
A lot of the data actually comes from western sources. And you’re once again showing your utter ignorance about USSR by calling it a totalitarian regime. It is also possible that you’re just an ignoramus with an agenda.
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The only stupid part here is equating Ukranians with kulaks.
I mean, they literally imported net more food than they exported. Did you miss the part that the famine wasn’t restricted to Ukraine?
You mean proof of a well documented fact? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droughts_and_famines_in_Russia_and_the_Soviet_Union#List_of_post-1900_droughts_and_famines
Because the soviets controlled the weather obviously.
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This statement is very much in line with a Marxist framework. Note also that he just stated this – he did not have the power to make his word become law and I tracked the quote to an article Stalin wrote for a newspaper to correct an earlier article. It was literally an analysis and not party policy on kulaks.
Nevertheless, eliminating a class is entirely different from eliminating the people that make up that class. As social classes are a reflection of the material conditions and specifically the relationship to the means of production, if you change these relationships you will inevitably change the classes. Like how some nobles in feudal France became bourgeois and proto-capitalists around the time of the 1789 revolution.
Ukraine in 2021 should care more about their declining population (1/5th of it lost in total since 1990) than trying to keep alive the myth of a genocide 100 years ago from a country that does not exist any more.
So, you’re saying they should’ve just let people in other parts of USSR die, instead of trying to alleviate the famine across the country the best they could by redistributing food where it was most needed?
It wasn’t the only factor, and I never made that claim. What’s being said is that there is no evidence for the famine being any sort of intentional genocide on the part of the Soviets.
Revolutionary period was an incredibly turbulent period. There was a civil war and western powers invaded USSR in 1918. They did the best they could under the circumstances. Note that USSR never had a famine after WW2 when it was finally able to develop in relative peace.
That’s not how it works. Having a central authority to “redistribute” resources has shown time and time again that it leads to injustice and corruption. Don’t worry that Lenin and Trotsky and their friends were very well fed all through the famine.
You’re woefully ignorant on the subject you’re attempting to debate. Perhaps at least read the study I provided in the earlier comment to get an idea of what you’re talking bout.
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Which would result in people starving in other parts of USSR. So, yes that is what you’re actually advocating for here without having the intellectual honesty to admit it.
There is literally no evidence to suggest that the famine was in any way intentional. However, nobody is disputing the fact that failure of policy contributed to the famine.
You’re incredibly historically ignorant. Much has been written on the subject and you should try to at least minimally educate yourself on the subject you’re attempting to debate. Also, go look up when perestroika and glasnost happened to see just how utterly absurd you’re being. Here are some starting resources for you.
USSR doubled life expectancy in just 20 years. A newborn child in 1926-27 had a life expectancy of 44.4 years, up from 32.3 years thirty years before. In 1958-59 the life expectancy for newborns went up to 68.6 years. the Semashko system of the USSR increased lifespan by 50% in 20 years. By the 1960’s, lifespans in the USSR were comparable to those in the USA:
Quality of nutrition improved after the Soviet revolution, and even CIA data suggests they ate just as much as Americans after WW2 peroid while having better nutrition:
GDP took off after socialism was established and then collapsed with the reintroduction of capitalism:
The Soviet Union had the highest physician/patient ratio in the world. USSR had 42 doctors per 10,000 population compared to 24 in Denmark and Sweden, and 19 in US:
Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe:
Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time:
A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life:
This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development.
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The study I linked explains it in detail. You obviously didn’t bother reading it.
Doesn’t say what you think it says. Go read up on who the kulaks were and what they were doing. Also, please show me concrete policy from the Soviet leadership that shows intent to create a famine in Ukraine.
Life expectancy in USSR clearly demonstrates that the doctors were perfectly qualified.
A lot of the data actually comes from western sources. And you’re once again showing your utter ignorance about USSR by calling it a totalitarian regime. It is also possible that you’re just an ignoramus with an agenda.
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