I fail to see the distinction between “making a logical decision without all the facts” and “make guesses based on how [you’ve been programmed]”. Literally what is the difference?
I’ll concede that human intelligence is several orders more powerful, can act upon a wider space of stimuli, and can do it at a fraction of the energy efficiency. That definitely sets it apart. But I disagree that it’s the only “true” form of intelligence.
Intelligence is the ability to accumulate new information (i.e. memorize patterns) and apply that information to respond to novel situations. That’s exactly what AI does. It is intelligence. Underwhelming intelligence, but nonetheless intelligence. The method of implementation, the input/output space, and the matter of degree are irrelevant.
It’s not just about storage and retrieval of information but also about how (and if) the entity understands the information and can interpret it. This is why an AI still struggles to drive a car because it doesn’t actually understand the difference between a small child and a speedbump.
Meanwhile, a simple insect can interpret stimulus information and independently make its own decisions without assistance or having to be pre-programmed by an intelligent being on how to react. An insect can even set its own goals based on that information, like acquiring food or avoiding predators. The insect does all of this because it is intelligent.
In contrast to the insect, an AI like ChatGPT is not anymore intelligent than a calculator, as it relies on an intelligent being to understand the subject and formulate the right stimulus in the first place. Then its result is simply an informed guess at best, there’s no understanding like an insect has that it needs to zig zag in a particular way because it wants to avoid getting eaten by predators. Rather, AI as we know it today is really just a very good information retrieval system and not intelligent at all.
“Understanding” and “interpretation” are themselves nothing more than emergent properties of advanced pattern recognition.
I find it interesting that you bring up insects as your proof of how they differ from artificial intelligence. To me, they are among nature’s most demonstrably clockwork creatures. I find some of their rather predictable “decisions” to some kinds of stimuli to be evidence that they aren’t so different from an AI that responds “without thinking”.
The way you can tease out a response from ChatGPT by leading it by the nose with very specifically worded prompts, or put it on the spot to hallucinate facts that are untrue is, in my mind, no different than how so-called “intelligent” insects can be stopped in their tracks by a harmless line of Sharpie ink, or be made to death spiral with a faulty pheromone trail, or to thrust themselves into the electrified jaws of a bug zapper. In both cases their inner machinations are fundamentally reactionary and thus exploitable.
Stimulus in, action out. Just needs to pass through some wiring that maps the I/O. Whether that wiring is fleshy or metallic doesn’t matter. Any notion of the wiring “thinking” is merely anthropomorphism.
You said it yourself; you as an intelligent being must tease out whatever response you seek out of CharGPT by providing it with the correct stimuli. An insect operates autonomously, even if in simple or predictable ways. The two are very different ways of responding to stimuli even if the results seem similar.
The only difference you seem to be highlighting here is that an AI like ChatGPT is only active when queried while an insect is “always on”. I find this to be an entirely irrelevant detail to the question of whether either one meets criteria of intelligence.
Not at all, you’re just continually dismissing the point.
An insect doesn’t need an actual intelligent being to understand the information being used and to control it or use it, unlike ChatGPT. The latter is just a glorified calculator compared to a living intelligent being.
An insect is an example of intelligence because it is an intelligent being.
An AI is not an example of intelligence because it is not an intelligent being.
And also because it requires another intelligent being to… use… it…? Huh? What do the method by which an AI receives its stimuli and the effects of its responses matter? Such details are external set dressing.
You could just as well slice out an insect’s brain, hook it up to some electrodes, and query it the same way you would ChatGPT. Alternatively, a sufficiently trained AI contained in some hypothetical form factor that could be grafted to the nervous system of an insect would pilot that insect body just as well. No AI we have now is so advanced, but that’s a scale issue, not a principle issue.
The latter is just a glorified calculator compared to a living intelligent being.
I don’t understand how this runs counter to my argument. The living being is itself a glorified calculator. What is the difference, other than scale?
The best decision I could make is a guess based on the logic I’ve determined from my own experiences that I would then compare and contrast to the current input.
I will say that “current input” for humans seems to be more broad than what is achievable for AI and the underlying mechanism that lets us assemble our training set (read as: past experiences) into useful and usable models appears to be more robust than current tech, but to the best of my ability to explain it, this appears to be a comparable operation to what is happening with the current iterations of LLM/AI.
If you can’t make logical decisions then how are you a comp sci major?
Seriously though, the point is that when making decisions you as a human understand a lot of the ramifications of them and can use your own logic to make the best decision you can. You are able to make much more flexible decisions and exercise caution when you’re unsure. This is actual intelligence at work.
A language processing system has to have it’s prompt framed in the right way, it has to have knowledge in its database about it and it only responds in a way that it’s programmed to do so. It doesn’t understand the ramifications of what it puts out.
The two “systems” are vastly different in both their capabilities and output. Even in image processing AI absolutely sucks at driving a car for instance, whereas most humans can do it safely with little thought.
I don’t think that fully encapsulates a counter point, but I think that has the beginnings of a solid counter point to the argument I’ve laid out above (again, it’s not one I actually devised, just one that really put me on my heels).
The ability to recognize when it’s out of its depth does not appear to be something modern “AI” can handle.
As I chew on it, I can’t help but wonder what it would take to have AI recognize that. It doesn’t feel like it should be difficult to have a series of nodes along the information processing matrix to track “confidence levels”. Though, I suppose that’s kind of what is happening when the creators of these projects try to keep their projects from processing controversial topics. It’s my understanding those instances act as something of a short circuit where (if you will) when confidence “that I’m allowed to walk about this” drops below a certain level, the AI will spit out a canned response vs actually attempting to process input against the model.
The above is intended ad more a brain dump than a coherent argument. You’ve given me something to chew on, and for that I thank you!
Well, it’s an online forum and I’m responding while getting dressed and traveling to an appointment, so concise responses is what you’re gonna get. In a way it’s interesting that I can multitask all of these complex tasks reasonably effortlessly, something else an existing AI cannot do.
Can you make a logical decision on your own even when you don’t have all the facts?
The current version of AI cannot, it makes guesses based on how we’ve programmed it, just like every other computer program.
I fail to see the distinction between “making a logical decision without all the facts” and “make guesses based on how [you’ve been programmed]”. Literally what is the difference?
I’ll concede that human intelligence is several orders more powerful, can act upon a wider space of stimuli, and can do it at a fraction of the energy efficiency. That definitely sets it apart. But I disagree that it’s the only “true” form of intelligence.
Intelligence is the ability to accumulate new information (i.e. memorize patterns) and apply that information to respond to novel situations. That’s exactly what AI does. It is intelligence. Underwhelming intelligence, but nonetheless intelligence. The method of implementation, the input/output space, and the matter of degree are irrelevant.
It’s not just about storage and retrieval of information but also about how (and if) the entity understands the information and can interpret it. This is why an AI still struggles to drive a car because it doesn’t actually understand the difference between a small child and a speedbump.
Meanwhile, a simple insect can interpret stimulus information and independently make its own decisions without assistance or having to be pre-programmed by an intelligent being on how to react. An insect can even set its own goals based on that information, like acquiring food or avoiding predators. The insect does all of this because it is intelligent.
In contrast to the insect, an AI like ChatGPT is not anymore intelligent than a calculator, as it relies on an intelligent being to understand the subject and formulate the right stimulus in the first place. Then its result is simply an informed guess at best, there’s no understanding like an insect has that it needs to zig zag in a particular way because it wants to avoid getting eaten by predators. Rather, AI as we know it today is really just a very good information retrieval system and not intelligent at all.
“Understanding” and “interpretation” are themselves nothing more than emergent properties of advanced pattern recognition.
I find it interesting that you bring up insects as your proof of how they differ from artificial intelligence. To me, they are among nature’s most demonstrably clockwork creatures. I find some of their rather predictable “decisions” to some kinds of stimuli to be evidence that they aren’t so different from an AI that responds “without thinking”.
The way you can tease out a response from ChatGPT by leading it by the nose with very specifically worded prompts, or put it on the spot to hallucinate facts that are untrue is, in my mind, no different than how so-called “intelligent” insects can be stopped in their tracks by a harmless line of Sharpie ink, or be made to death spiral with a faulty pheromone trail, or to thrust themselves into the electrified jaws of a bug zapper. In both cases their inner machinations are fundamentally reactionary and thus exploitable.
Stimulus in, action out. Just needs to pass through some wiring that maps the I/O. Whether that wiring is fleshy or metallic doesn’t matter. Any notion of the wiring “thinking” is merely anthropomorphism.
You said it yourself; you as an intelligent being must tease out whatever response you seek out of CharGPT by providing it with the correct stimuli. An insect operates autonomously, even if in simple or predictable ways. The two are very different ways of responding to stimuli even if the results seem similar.
The only difference you seem to be highlighting here is that an AI like ChatGPT is only active when queried while an insect is “always on”. I find this to be an entirely irrelevant detail to the question of whether either one meets criteria of intelligence.
Not at all, you’re just continually dismissing the point.
An insect doesn’t need an actual intelligent being to understand the information being used and to control it or use it, unlike ChatGPT. The latter is just a glorified calculator compared to a living intelligent being.
Your assertions are tautological.
And also because it requires another intelligent being to… use… it…? Huh? What do the method by which an AI receives its stimuli and the effects of its responses matter? Such details are external set dressing.
You could just as well slice out an insect’s brain, hook it up to some electrodes, and query it the same way you would ChatGPT. Alternatively, a sufficiently trained AI contained in some hypothetical form factor that could be grafted to the nervous system of an insect would pilot that insect body just as well. No AI we have now is so advanced, but that’s a scale issue, not a principle issue.
I don’t understand how this runs counter to my argument. The living being is itself a glorified calculator. What is the difference, other than scale?
I have to say no, I can’t.
The best decision I could make is a guess based on the logic I’ve determined from my own experiences that I would then compare and contrast to the current input.
I will say that “current input” for humans seems to be more broad than what is achievable for AI and the underlying mechanism that lets us assemble our training set (read as: past experiences) into useful and usable models appears to be more robust than current tech, but to the best of my ability to explain it, this appears to be a comparable operation to what is happening with the current iterations of LLM/AI.
Ninjaedit: spelling
If you can’t make logical decisions then how are you a comp sci major?
Seriously though, the point is that when making decisions you as a human understand a lot of the ramifications of them and can use your own logic to make the best decision you can. You are able to make much more flexible decisions and exercise caution when you’re unsure. This is actual intelligence at work.
A language processing system has to have it’s prompt framed in the right way, it has to have knowledge in its database about it and it only responds in a way that it’s programmed to do so. It doesn’t understand the ramifications of what it puts out.
The two “systems” are vastly different in both their capabilities and output. Even in image processing AI absolutely sucks at driving a car for instance, whereas most humans can do it safely with little thought.
I don’t think that fully encapsulates a counter point, but I think that has the beginnings of a solid counter point to the argument I’ve laid out above (again, it’s not one I actually devised, just one that really put me on my heels).
The ability to recognize when it’s out of its depth does not appear to be something modern “AI” can handle.
As I chew on it, I can’t help but wonder what it would take to have AI recognize that. It doesn’t feel like it should be difficult to have a series of nodes along the information processing matrix to track “confidence levels”. Though, I suppose that’s kind of what is happening when the creators of these projects try to keep their projects from processing controversial topics. It’s my understanding those instances act as something of a short circuit where (if you will) when confidence “that I’m allowed to walk about this” drops below a certain level, the AI will spit out a canned response vs actually attempting to process input against the model.
The above is intended ad more a brain dump than a coherent argument. You’ve given me something to chew on, and for that I thank you!
Well, it’s an online forum and I’m responding while getting dressed and traveling to an appointment, so concise responses is what you’re gonna get. In a way it’s interesting that I can multitask all of these complex tasks reasonably effortlessly, something else an existing AI cannot do.