i’m newhere, i see you post frequently. i guess you use a bot or plugin or something :)
There’s this woman testifying that high in western politics there’s no place for ‘normal’ people. This lady has created a youtube channel where she and other victims testify by personal account of (the nature of) what goes on behind the scenes. In the channels ‘about’ it claims “Our project includes original content and first-hand accounts only”. On her channel there’s (amongst others) both a playlist of ‘satanic ritual abuse’ victims, and ‘human trafficking’ victims. https://www.youtube.com/@RealWomenRealStories/playlists
i couldn’t even imagine the terror they are inflicted. Quite enlightning, putting politics in a very different perspective.
i’m quite sure also other ideologies can’t escape this kind of evil infiltration though. it’s not that only wealthy people are subject to it. it infiltrates all positions of influence i.e. govern-ments.
We have direct evidence that socialist systems avoid many horrors seen under capitalism. As an example, I highly recommend reading chapter 6 in this book which gives lots of direct examples of what happened after USSR dissolved and capitalism was introduced.
@yogthos@roho black shirts and refs is probably one of the best books about socialism. its one i usually think of giving to regular poeple not familiar with what socialism is
Trudeau praises China. Past couple of years have proven that in both countries freedom is a farse.
While were discussing governments, satanists infiltrate whatever positions to rule the masses. Anneke lucas (the channel i gave) shares what she endured. It paints another problem paradigm
And this isn’t exactly a surprise given how much people in China have seen their lives improve over the years. China account for vast majority of poverty alleviation globally:
That’s not what people who actually live in China say
…
So, not really sure what you’re going on about here.
Well, you’re talking about income/wealth improvement, while i said that freedom isn’t what it portraid like under any regime. That covid made it quite clear.
With regard to what Chinese people say about China. i’ve spoken with Chinese refugees. They were captured and tortured for practicing falun-gong(a.k.a. falun-dafa. see https://faluninfo.net/ ) and i’ve seen a Chinese refugee’s fingers which had been mutulated by needles being pushed under his nails. And not much later i spoke a Chinese lady who was shocked that i knew of falundafa. We realized she only knew the state-propaganda side of the story.
Having followed the HongKong protests, you might seen the real face of CCP as well.
Both your and my talking points don’t discredit the other, right?
i mean, wealth doesn’t say anything about freedom.
Well, you’re talking about income/wealth improvement, while i said that freedom isn’t what it portraid like under any regime. That covid made it quite clear.
No, I’m not just talking about income/wealth improvement. I’m talking about access to housing, education, healthcare, jobs, social mobility, and so on. All these things are actual tangible freedoms people in China enjoy.
Ultimately, it’s important to define what freedom means instead of just using nebulous slogans as western propagandists do. Freedom can be seen as the measure of personal agency an individual enjoys within the framework of society. Having access to education, housing, healthcare, and so on, affords people real freedoms that allow them to pursue self actualization.
What covid made clear is that China saved millions of lives while western oligarchs decided to sacrifice people to keep making profits.
I have friends from China, and I know people I went to university with who went back to China. Vast majority of people living in China are happy as all the studies from western sources that I linked show. Meanwhile, falun gong is a cult and it’s rightfully banned in China for very good reasons. If you spent a bit of time educating yourself on what falun gong actually is you’d understand why.
Meanwhile, China took a very restrained approach to dealing with US backed violent mobs in HK. You just have to compare the handling of that to the brutality of US regime when it was dealing with peaceful George Floyd protests.
Both your and my talking points don’t discredit the other, right? i mean, wealth doesn’t say anything about freedom.
Your talking points are rooted in western propaganda narratives that have little to do with reality.
No, I’m not just talking about income/wealth improvement. I’m talking about access to housing, education, healthcare, jobs, social mobility, and so on. All these things are actual tangible freedoms people in China enjoy. What covid made clear is that China saved millions of lives while western oligarchs decided to sacrifice people to keep making profits.
That’s not freedoms per-se. in my opinion that’s access to wealth. If you’re locked up and brutalized for your belief, what freedom is that. If you can’t travel because your ‘social credit’ score is too low, what freedom is that? But i’ll leave it at that. (The EU is moving towards such regime in rapid pace as well.)
Vast majority of people living in China are happy
i agree.
brutality of US regime
i agree. Similarly, all the US lies about Weapons of Mass Destruction which got IRAQ butchered, like so many other countries under the false flag ‘installing democracy’. There are enough veterans out there warning about what is actually happening.
Regarding falun-gong. i read the 2 books and spoken to the believers and read the mainstream articles claiming it’s a dangerous cult. My impression is that negative propaganda is rampant. The books educate e.g. to always speak truth and if you’re being hurt to Not let it breed hate in you, etc. (my own words). There was actually a period of 10 years the CCP and companies suggested the book for spiritual education, but at one point the following became to big and CCP was scared for it to turn political, so they started the crackdown. The Chinese lady coworker who i spoke (who was at first shocked that i knew of it) told me she remembers that after the burning man on tiananmen-square who was portraied as a follower and used for disgrace propaganda, her mother ditched the books they once had received from her work.
Something to keep in mind is that the reason communists see communism as a movement worth pursuing isn’t that it’s better at preventing evil people (this isn’t even getting into how morality is part of the superstructure and how the superstructure relates to material reality) from attaining power, but rather how it progresses the class struggle.
Classes, as groups of people with certain relations to the means of production (e.g. proletarians performing labor in exchange for a wage that they use to acquire the stuff they need to exist, bourgeoisie obtaining their material by investing capital they already have and using that to pay for labor and resources to generate more capital, etc.) , are to a large extent shaped by those relations and incentivized to behave certain ways because of it. Whether or not a particular member of the bourgeoisie or the state that they use to maintain control is evil, they will still be pressured to sell their commodities at as high of a price as they can get away with and pay their workers as little as they can get away with. This is in contradiction to the proletariat, who want to be paid as much as possible by and pay as little as possible to the bourgeoisie (proletarians get their means of subsistence by exchanging money from their wages for commodities that are owned by the bourgeoisie after all).
Socialists want the proletariat to own the means of production collectively instead of having them owned privately by individual capitalists. Regarding the *factory, mall, school, and office" all being prisons like in the OP, the conditions that cause these places to be prisons under capitalism will diminish and eventually disappear under socialism. There wouldn’t be a need to pit workers against each other in a race to the bottom to avoid unemployment (capitalists benefit from the threat of unemployment because it allows them to buy the proletariat’s labor power for less). This would mean there’s little reason to overwork someone at a job they hate: they will still have to labor but that labor time will be less as the work is more distributed among the population. There will also be less of a reason to overproduce and waste (e.g. different companies churning out essentially the same product, supermarkets destroying tons of food, etc.).
School will no longer be a prison because it will no longer need to shape people into obedient drones who are just smart enough to do their job but not smart enough to critically examine the world.
The mall won’t be a prison anymore because if the production and exchange of commodities is no longer the basis for how people get their stuff, there will be no point to have a place where the only activity one can do is shop.
TL; DR; Socialism is objectively better at meeting the needs and wants the majority of people than capitalism is. It eliminates conditions that cause the “evil” of capitalism to arise in the first place.
Thanks for your elaboration. Although my point wasn’t to discuss this, but to point to another aspect of failing government.
Something to keep in mind …
Classes, as groups of people …
i agree
Socialists want the proletariat
i agree with what the incentive is.
But (afaik) there’s no feedback loop for whatever shortage there may be, to be recognized and overcome. How is that tackled when businesses are state owned and personal endeavors require public property?
There will also be less of a reason to overproduce and waste (e.g. different companies churning out essentially the same product, supermarkets destroying tons of food, etc.).
i agree. i believe many such problems arose when the stock-markets were introduced. Where under the guise of injecting capital, a company becomes ruled by leeches. Essentially removing the personal attachment of the company owner to their workers. in short, the soul of the company is removed.
School will no longer be a prison because it will no longer need to shape people into obedient drones who are just smart enough to do their job but not smart enough to critically examine the world.
i’m not so sure if socialism will solve it. There is by the way a rising group of acedemics pointing out the decline in allowing critical thinking amongst the university teachers and students, and even a cancel culture growing where critical thinking/discussions are targetted. Something they didn’t notice before.(probably there was, but it all depends on their prior perceptions)
It eliminates conditions that cause the “evil” of capitalism
Ok. But i didn’t discuss socialsm vs capitalism. i pointed to a different problem paradigm working in current governments. Of which multiple testify their own experiences of being subject it, although only few were able to escape.(the playlists i mentioned)
i pointed to a different problem paradigm working in current governments. Of which multiple testify their own experiences of being subject it, although only few were able to escape.(the playlists i mentioned)
Could you be explicit about what problem paradigm you are talking about? You’ve referred people to that youtube playlist in other comments, but it has many videos that are 40+ minutes long and, judging by the titles, cover a variety of topics from sexism to child abuse to satanic rituals. I’m not sure what your trying to say the overarching problem is.
Hi. Well, the problem i have with being more explicit is, that i’m relaying a message which i can’t do justice. What i will say is; Anneke Lucas experienced organized crime. She shares insights in the torture methods used, and how it’s used to control people(that problem paradigm i referred to). After she escaped she recognized that some political figures were people who handled her. For more details i’d really rather have you listen to her, because me trying to use heavy words doesn’t scratch the surface of her life story. What i take from it; we don’t have a clue what we’re up against.
Hi yogthos,
i’m newhere, i see you post frequently. i guess you use a bot or plugin or something :)
There’s this woman testifying that high in western politics there’s no place for ‘normal’ people. This lady has created a youtube channel where she and other victims testify by personal account of (the nature of) what goes on behind the scenes. In the channels ‘about’ it claims “Our project includes original content and first-hand accounts only”. On her channel there’s (amongst others) both a playlist of ‘satanic ritual abuse’ victims, and ‘human trafficking’ victims. https://www.youtube.com/@RealWomenRealStories/playlists i couldn’t even imagine the terror they are inflicted. Quite enlightning, putting politics in a very different perspective.
Yeah, that’s a very different perspective exposing the truly dark aspects of life under capitalism.
i’m quite sure also other ideologies can’t escape this kind of evil infiltration though. it’s not that only wealthy people are subject to it. it infiltrates all positions of influence i.e. govern-ments.
We have direct evidence that socialist systems avoid many horrors seen under capitalism. As an example, I highly recommend reading chapter 6 in this book which gives lots of direct examples of what happened after USSR dissolved and capitalism was introduced.
@yogthos @roho black shirts and refs is probably one of the best books about socialism. its one i usually think of giving to regular poeple not familiar with what socialism is
💯
Trudeau praises China. Past couple of years have proven that in both countries freedom is a farse.
While were discussing governments, satanists infiltrate whatever positions to rule the masses. Anneke lucas (the channel i gave) shares what she endured. It paints another problem paradigm
That’s not what people who actually live in China say
And this isn’t exactly a surprise given how much people in China have seen their lives improve over the years. China account for vast majority of poverty alleviation globally:
China also massively invests in infrastructure. They used more concrete in 3 years than US in all of 20th century, they built 27,000km of high speed rail in a decade. 90% of families in the country own their home giving China one of the highest home ownership rates in the world. What’s more is that 80% of these homes are owned outright, without mortgages or any other leans. Real wage (i.e. the wage adjusted for the prices you pay) has gone up 4x in the past 25 years, more than any other country. This is staggering considering it’s the most populous country on the planet. Social mobility in China is also very high.
So, not really sure what you’re going on about here.
A YouTube link was detected in your comment. Here are links to the same video on Invidious, which is a YouTube frontend that protects your privacy:
Well, you’re talking about income/wealth improvement, while i said that freedom isn’t what it portraid like under any regime. That covid made it quite clear.
With regard to what Chinese people say about China. i’ve spoken with Chinese refugees. They were captured and tortured for practicing falun-gong(a.k.a. falun-dafa. see https://faluninfo.net/ ) and i’ve seen a Chinese refugee’s fingers which had been mutulated by needles being pushed under his nails. And not much later i spoke a Chinese lady who was shocked that i knew of falundafa. We realized she only knew the state-propaganda side of the story. Having followed the HongKong protests, you might seen the real face of CCP as well.
Both your and my talking points don’t discredit the other, right? i mean, wealth doesn’t say anything about freedom.
No, I’m not just talking about income/wealth improvement. I’m talking about access to housing, education, healthcare, jobs, social mobility, and so on. All these things are actual tangible freedoms people in China enjoy.
Ultimately, it’s important to define what freedom means instead of just using nebulous slogans as western propagandists do. Freedom can be seen as the measure of personal agency an individual enjoys within the framework of society. Having access to education, housing, healthcare, and so on, affords people real freedoms that allow them to pursue self actualization.
What covid made clear is that China saved millions of lives while western oligarchs decided to sacrifice people to keep making profits.
I have friends from China, and I know people I went to university with who went back to China. Vast majority of people living in China are happy as all the studies from western sources that I linked show. Meanwhile, falun gong is a cult and it’s rightfully banned in China for very good reasons. If you spent a bit of time educating yourself on what falun gong actually is you’d understand why.
Meanwhile, China took a very restrained approach to dealing with US backed violent mobs in HK. You just have to compare the handling of that to the brutality of US regime when it was dealing with peaceful George Floyd protests.
Your talking points are rooted in western propaganda narratives that have little to do with reality.
That’s not freedoms per-se. in my opinion that’s access to wealth. If you’re locked up and brutalized for your belief, what freedom is that. If you can’t travel because your ‘social credit’ score is too low, what freedom is that? But i’ll leave it at that. (The EU is moving towards such regime in rapid pace as well.)
i agree.
i agree. Similarly, all the US lies about Weapons of Mass Destruction which got IRAQ butchered, like so many other countries under the false flag ‘installing democracy’. There are enough veterans out there warning about what is actually happening.
Regarding falun-gong. i read the 2 books and spoken to the believers and read the mainstream articles claiming it’s a dangerous cult. My impression is that negative propaganda is rampant. The books educate e.g. to always speak truth and if you’re being hurt to Not let it breed hate in you, etc. (my own words). There was actually a period of 10 years the CCP and companies suggested the book for spiritual education, but at one point the following became to big and CCP was scared for it to turn political, so they started the crackdown. The Chinese lady coworker who i spoke (who was at first shocked that i knew of it) told me she remembers that after the burning man on tiananmen-square who was portraied as a follower and used for disgrace propaganda, her mother ditched the books they once had received from her work.
i get the impression you followed covid news via popular media outlets. Yes people died. But there’s more to it. Science (although late) uncovers the western lies which were propagated throught the media. (e.g. masks) (masks2), (more here). Also, a study finally released proving hydroxyxchlorequine to be beneficial(what so many said all along, even though fact-check squad was out to suppress them), while media and poly-tics did everything to block people’s access to it. (The hcq studies done previously were intentionally setup flawed and didn’t correct the setup while scientists did write them. By the way… the initial HCQ scare was based on a complete fraud by Surgisphere, and published by the Lancet, although later retracted). But the scare worked and got all access to HCQ banned. Similarly they did with ivermectin.
“It happens in my country’s government, therefore it must happen in every country’s government”
Projection!
Brilliant response! You haven’t checked her story out for sure.
Something to keep in mind is that the reason communists see communism as a movement worth pursuing isn’t that it’s better at preventing evil people (this isn’t even getting into how morality is part of the superstructure and how the superstructure relates to material reality) from attaining power, but rather how it progresses the class struggle.
Classes, as groups of people with certain relations to the means of production (e.g. proletarians performing labor in exchange for a wage that they use to acquire the stuff they need to exist, bourgeoisie obtaining their material by investing capital they already have and using that to pay for labor and resources to generate more capital, etc.) , are to a large extent shaped by those relations and incentivized to behave certain ways because of it. Whether or not a particular member of the bourgeoisie or the state that they use to maintain control is evil, they will still be pressured to sell their commodities at as high of a price as they can get away with and pay their workers as little as they can get away with. This is in contradiction to the proletariat, who want to be paid as much as possible by and pay as little as possible to the bourgeoisie (proletarians get their means of subsistence by exchanging money from their wages for commodities that are owned by the bourgeoisie after all).
Socialists want the proletariat to own the means of production collectively instead of having them owned privately by individual capitalists. Regarding the *factory, mall, school, and office" all being prisons like in the OP, the conditions that cause these places to be prisons under capitalism will diminish and eventually disappear under socialism. There wouldn’t be a need to pit workers against each other in a race to the bottom to avoid unemployment (capitalists benefit from the threat of unemployment because it allows them to buy the proletariat’s labor power for less). This would mean there’s little reason to overwork someone at a job they hate: they will still have to labor but that labor time will be less as the work is more distributed among the population. There will also be less of a reason to overproduce and waste (e.g. different companies churning out essentially the same product, supermarkets destroying tons of food, etc.).
School will no longer be a prison because it will no longer need to shape people into obedient drones who are just smart enough to do their job but not smart enough to critically examine the world.
The mall won’t be a prison anymore because if the production and exchange of commodities is no longer the basis for how people get their stuff, there will be no point to have a place where the only activity one can do is shop.
TL; DR; Socialism is objectively better at meeting the needs and wants the majority of people than capitalism is. It eliminates conditions that cause the “evil” of capitalism to arise in the first place.
Hi
Thanks for your elaboration. Although my point wasn’t to discuss this, but to point to another aspect of failing government.
i agree
i agree with what the incentive is. But (afaik) there’s no feedback loop for whatever shortage there may be, to be recognized and overcome. How is that tackled when businesses are state owned and personal endeavors require public property?
i agree. i believe many such problems arose when the stock-markets were introduced. Where under the guise of injecting capital, a company becomes ruled by leeches. Essentially removing the personal attachment of the company owner to their workers. in short, the soul of the company is removed.
i’m not so sure if socialism will solve it. There is by the way a rising group of acedemics pointing out the decline in allowing critical thinking amongst the university teachers and students, and even a cancel culture growing where critical thinking/discussions are targetted. Something they didn’t notice before.(probably there was, but it all depends on their prior perceptions)
Ok. But i didn’t discuss socialsm vs capitalism. i pointed to a different problem paradigm working in current governments. Of which multiple testify their own experiences of being subject it, although only few were able to escape.(the playlists i mentioned)
Could you be explicit about what problem paradigm you are talking about? You’ve referred people to that youtube playlist in other comments, but it has many videos that are 40+ minutes long and, judging by the titles, cover a variety of topics from sexism to child abuse to satanic rituals. I’m not sure what your trying to say the overarching problem is.
Hi. Well, the problem i have with being more explicit is, that i’m relaying a message which i can’t do justice. What i will say is; Anneke Lucas experienced organized crime. She shares insights in the torture methods used, and how it’s used to control people(that problem paradigm i referred to). After she escaped she recognized that some political figures were people who handled her. For more details i’d really rather have you listen to her, because me trying to use heavy words doesn’t scratch the surface of her life story. What i take from it; we don’t have a clue what we’re up against.