Something to keep in mind is that the reason communists see communism as a movement worth pursuing isn’t that it’s better at preventing evil people (this isn’t even getting into how morality is part of the superstructure and how the superstructure relates to material reality) from attaining power, but rather how it progresses the class struggle.
Classes, as groups of people with certain relations to the means of production (e.g. proletarians performing labor in exchange for a wage that they use to acquire the stuff they need to exist, bourgeoisie obtaining their material by investing capital they already have and using that to pay for labor and resources to generate more capital, etc.) , are to a large extent shaped by those relations and incentivized to behave certain ways because of it. Whether or not a particular member of the bourgeoisie or the state that they use to maintain control is evil, they will still be pressured to sell their commodities at as high of a price as they can get away with and pay their workers as little as they can get away with. This is in contradiction to the proletariat, who want to be paid as much as possible by and pay as little as possible to the bourgeoisie (proletarians get their means of subsistence by exchanging money from their wages for commodities that are owned by the bourgeoisie after all).
Socialists want the proletariat to own the means of production collectively instead of having them owned privately by individual capitalists. Regarding the *factory, mall, school, and office" all being prisons like in the OP, the conditions that cause these places to be prisons under capitalism will diminish and eventually disappear under socialism. There wouldn’t be a need to pit workers against each other in a race to the bottom to avoid unemployment (capitalists benefit from the threat of unemployment because it allows them to buy the proletariat’s labor power for less). This would mean there’s little reason to overwork someone at a job they hate: they will still have to labor but that labor time will be less as the work is more distributed among the population. There will also be less of a reason to overproduce and waste (e.g. different companies churning out essentially the same product, supermarkets destroying tons of food, etc.).
School will no longer be a prison because it will no longer need to shape people into obedient drones who are just smart enough to do their job but not smart enough to critically examine the world.
The mall won’t be a prison anymore because if the production and exchange of commodities is no longer the basis for how people get their stuff, there will be no point to have a place where the only activity one can do is shop.
TL; DR; Socialism is objectively better at meeting the needs and wants the majority of people than capitalism is. It eliminates conditions that cause the “evil” of capitalism to arise in the first place.
Thanks for your elaboration. Although my point wasn’t to discuss this, but to point to another aspect of failing government.
Something to keep in mind …
Classes, as groups of people …
i agree
Socialists want the proletariat
i agree with what the incentive is.
But (afaik) there’s no feedback loop for whatever shortage there may be, to be recognized and overcome. How is that tackled when businesses are state owned and personal endeavors require public property?
There will also be less of a reason to overproduce and waste (e.g. different companies churning out essentially the same product, supermarkets destroying tons of food, etc.).
i agree. i believe many such problems arose when the stock-markets were introduced. Where under the guise of injecting capital, a company becomes ruled by leeches. Essentially removing the personal attachment of the company owner to their workers. in short, the soul of the company is removed.
School will no longer be a prison because it will no longer need to shape people into obedient drones who are just smart enough to do their job but not smart enough to critically examine the world.
i’m not so sure if socialism will solve it. There is by the way a rising group of acedemics pointing out the decline in allowing critical thinking amongst the university teachers and students, and even a cancel culture growing where critical thinking/discussions are targetted. Something they didn’t notice before.(probably there was, but it all depends on their prior perceptions)
It eliminates conditions that cause the “evil” of capitalism
Ok. But i didn’t discuss socialsm vs capitalism. i pointed to a different problem paradigm working in current governments. Of which multiple testify their own experiences of being subject it, although only few were able to escape.(the playlists i mentioned)
i pointed to a different problem paradigm working in current governments. Of which multiple testify their own experiences of being subject it, although only few were able to escape.(the playlists i mentioned)
Could you be explicit about what problem paradigm you are talking about? You’ve referred people to that youtube playlist in other comments, but it has many videos that are 40+ minutes long and, judging by the titles, cover a variety of topics from sexism to child abuse to satanic rituals. I’m not sure what your trying to say the overarching problem is.
Hi. Well, the problem i have with being more explicit is, that i’m relaying a message which i can’t do justice. What i will say is; Anneke Lucas experienced organized crime. She shares insights in the torture methods used, and how it’s used to control people(that problem paradigm i referred to). After she escaped she recognized that some political figures were people who handled her. For more details i’d really rather have you listen to her, because me trying to use heavy words doesn’t scratch the surface of her life story. What i take from it; we don’t have a clue what we’re up against.
Something to keep in mind is that the reason communists see communism as a movement worth pursuing isn’t that it’s better at preventing evil people (this isn’t even getting into how morality is part of the superstructure and how the superstructure relates to material reality) from attaining power, but rather how it progresses the class struggle.
Classes, as groups of people with certain relations to the means of production (e.g. proletarians performing labor in exchange for a wage that they use to acquire the stuff they need to exist, bourgeoisie obtaining their material by investing capital they already have and using that to pay for labor and resources to generate more capital, etc.) , are to a large extent shaped by those relations and incentivized to behave certain ways because of it. Whether or not a particular member of the bourgeoisie or the state that they use to maintain control is evil, they will still be pressured to sell their commodities at as high of a price as they can get away with and pay their workers as little as they can get away with. This is in contradiction to the proletariat, who want to be paid as much as possible by and pay as little as possible to the bourgeoisie (proletarians get their means of subsistence by exchanging money from their wages for commodities that are owned by the bourgeoisie after all).
Socialists want the proletariat to own the means of production collectively instead of having them owned privately by individual capitalists. Regarding the *factory, mall, school, and office" all being prisons like in the OP, the conditions that cause these places to be prisons under capitalism will diminish and eventually disappear under socialism. There wouldn’t be a need to pit workers against each other in a race to the bottom to avoid unemployment (capitalists benefit from the threat of unemployment because it allows them to buy the proletariat’s labor power for less). This would mean there’s little reason to overwork someone at a job they hate: they will still have to labor but that labor time will be less as the work is more distributed among the population. There will also be less of a reason to overproduce and waste (e.g. different companies churning out essentially the same product, supermarkets destroying tons of food, etc.).
School will no longer be a prison because it will no longer need to shape people into obedient drones who are just smart enough to do their job but not smart enough to critically examine the world.
The mall won’t be a prison anymore because if the production and exchange of commodities is no longer the basis for how people get their stuff, there will be no point to have a place where the only activity one can do is shop.
TL; DR; Socialism is objectively better at meeting the needs and wants the majority of people than capitalism is. It eliminates conditions that cause the “evil” of capitalism to arise in the first place.
Hi
Thanks for your elaboration. Although my point wasn’t to discuss this, but to point to another aspect of failing government.
i agree
i agree with what the incentive is. But (afaik) there’s no feedback loop for whatever shortage there may be, to be recognized and overcome. How is that tackled when businesses are state owned and personal endeavors require public property?
i agree. i believe many such problems arose when the stock-markets were introduced. Where under the guise of injecting capital, a company becomes ruled by leeches. Essentially removing the personal attachment of the company owner to their workers. in short, the soul of the company is removed.
i’m not so sure if socialism will solve it. There is by the way a rising group of acedemics pointing out the decline in allowing critical thinking amongst the university teachers and students, and even a cancel culture growing where critical thinking/discussions are targetted. Something they didn’t notice before.(probably there was, but it all depends on their prior perceptions)
Ok. But i didn’t discuss socialsm vs capitalism. i pointed to a different problem paradigm working in current governments. Of which multiple testify their own experiences of being subject it, although only few were able to escape.(the playlists i mentioned)
Could you be explicit about what problem paradigm you are talking about? You’ve referred people to that youtube playlist in other comments, but it has many videos that are 40+ minutes long and, judging by the titles, cover a variety of topics from sexism to child abuse to satanic rituals. I’m not sure what your trying to say the overarching problem is.
Hi. Well, the problem i have with being more explicit is, that i’m relaying a message which i can’t do justice. What i will say is; Anneke Lucas experienced organized crime. She shares insights in the torture methods used, and how it’s used to control people(that problem paradigm i referred to). After she escaped she recognized that some political figures were people who handled her. For more details i’d really rather have you listen to her, because me trying to use heavy words doesn’t scratch the surface of her life story. What i take from it; we don’t have a clue what we’re up against.