Ooh! Is this that Whataboutism thing that liberals keep accusing socialists of!
Actually no, this goes beyond just that when the US/UK/EU claim to be THE global bastions of free speech and the vanguards and protectors of free speech for the entire world. When they still pull this shit, you really have to start thinking if they have ulterior motives when they accuse China, Russia, or Belarus of human rights violations for not having free speech and whether this whole free speech thing is part of an agenda.
This isn’t just pot calling the kettle black, this is pot, who also claims to be the inventor and defenser of white, calling the kettle black.
Please point where people are claiming that Russia or Belarus are beacons of democracy. The discussion is about the hypocrisy of western countries that claim to have more freedoms while doing same things as the states they decry as being authoritarian.
They literally are. Go look at what RCMP does to the Indigenous people protecting their land in Canada as an example. When Canada wants to run a pipeline through indigenous land, that hasn’t been ceded I might add, they’ll brutalize and arrest as many people as they want. The fact that you believe there is nothing like this happening in North America is pathetic.
Abuse of Indigenous people is political violence on top of the genocide Canadian settlers committed.
But this is not the same thing. This is people demonstrating by physically disrupting projects. We can agree or disagree about the validity of their movement, like I myself don’t want us to build more pipelines, but clearly there’s a difference. These people using more than just speech and persuasion to try and achieve their political ends, they are directly trying to intervene physically. Nobody in Canada is being arrested or even stopped from expressing their political outlook, talking to media, or trying to persuade people to join their cause. In fact, levels of government often actually help in these expressions by for instance allowing a protest/march to partially shut down streets for the duration of a demonstrations in major cities like Vancouver and Toronto. Major parties run and even win representation, running on anti-pipeline platforms.
But that freedom of speech and freedom of opinion and of the press does not extend to the point of taking matters into ones own hands. And if you tried to pull off something like this in Russia by physically blocking the construction of a natural gas pipeline I have a feeling that the police would be a lot less tolerant than the RCMP.
It’s just a plain true fact that in Canada we have orders of magnitude more political freedom than in Belarus and Russia.
Nope, sorry. Dead wrong, hyperbolic statement. Nobody in Canada is being arrested for holding up a piece of paper on the street with a political message, regardless of their ethnicity. Yes, indigenous people are treated unfairly by the police, in some cases even murdered by the police. But this is a completely different topic than that of political freedom.
Regarding the starlight tours, this is utterly unrelated to the freedom of speech issue. Yes, police have abused indigenous people in the past and in some cases are still doing so in the present but we acknowledge this as a society all the way to the top offices of the country. We have a judicial system which is attempts to correct this and even compensate for biases such as the Gladue Report etc.
By any reasonable definition, Canada is much more politically free than Russia/Belarus. A reasonable bar to say that Canada enjoys political freedom is not “no injustice ever occurs on in Canada” or “police never abuse anyone in Canada” or “the state has never violated freedom of speech/expression even once”. If we are going to have the bar that high, then literally no society ever in history, or probably in the future, can adhere to this definition of freedom of speech so the phrase becomes useless and your criticism of Canadian society becomes meaningless because no society in the real universe can ever live up to your ideal.
A more reasonable definition would be something like “almost everyone, almost all the time, enjoys basically unlimited ability to express their political opinions without being subjected to persecution from the state” and we undoubtedly have that in Canada, and more so than in just about any other country. No police officer is going to do anything to any indigenous person for just holding up a protest sign in downtown Vancouver or Winnipeg or Toronto.
This is not at all true in Russia. People are arrested for as little as holding up a blank piece of paper, let alone an actually dissenting opinion!
Yes, indigenous people are treated unfairly by the police, in some cases even murdered by the police. But this is a completely different topic than that of political freedom.
That’s a false statement. Harassment of Indigenous people is fundamentally political in nature. Canada illegally occupied unceded land that belongs to these people, and it violates their sovereignty. This is a political issue.
By any reasonable definition, Canada is much more politically free than Russia/Belarus.
If you’re white.
No police officer is going to do anything to any indigenous person for just holding up a protest sign in downtown Vancouver or Winnipeg or Toronto.
You set up a false narrative that ignores actual political activity of Indigenous people that they get arrested and even murdered for.
I’ll also remind you what Canadian government did when the trucker protest blocked the bridge to US. Whatever we might say about this protest, it definitely was peaceful and citizens were expressing their views in a democratic fashion. The government invoked emergency powers to disperse this protest. Interestingly, this protest was allowed to go on right up to the point where it started affecting business interests.
Canada illegally occupied unceded land that belongs to these people
Yes, and these people are not prevented in any way from expressing that view, and advocating for change on the issue.
if you’re white.
What exactly are you even saying here? Are you saying that non-white people don’t have more political freedom / freedom of speech than a non-white person in Russia? I have never seen anyone, not even a person of colour, taken away by police immediately as soon as they so much as hold up a piece of blank paper.
You set up a false narrative that ignores actual political activity of Indigenous people that they get arrested and even murdered for.
Okay I know you don’t want to admit that you used hyperbole and I know that you probably like really love Russia and Belarus and don’t like Canada and you disagree with our whole society and everything but you really are not staying focused on what we’re talking about. Your claim is that Western countries like USA and Canada bestow less freedom to their populations and are more authoritarian than Russia and Belarus. This is just plain false. That isn’t to say that all political activity, broadly defined, is permitted. Virtually anything and everything could come under the banner of political activity, and so obviously there are going to be limitations on it. In Canada that tends to be when your political activity infringes on the rights of others in society. Yes, we live in a Capitalist society so that includes people’s property right. Protesters in Canada are only removed from the situation by the police when they do things like physically block people or projects or disrupt infrastructure.
You know perfectly well that that kind of political activity is not tolerated in virtually any society, least of all Russia and Belarus.
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Ooh! Is this that Whataboutism thing that liberals keep accusing socialists of!
Actually no, this goes beyond just that when the US/UK/EU claim to be THE global bastions of free speech and the vanguards and protectors of free speech for the entire world. When they still pull this shit, you really have to start thinking if they have ulterior motives when they accuse China, Russia, or Belarus of human rights violations for not having free speech and whether this whole free speech thing is part of an agenda.
This isn’t just pot calling the kettle black, this is pot, who also claims to be the inventor and defenser of white, calling the kettle black.
deleted by creator
That is whataboutism, please sit down.
deleted by creator
now you want to pretend to have nuance?
Please point where people are claiming that Russia or Belarus are beacons of democracy. The discussion is about the hypocrisy of western countries that claim to have more freedoms while doing same things as the states they decry as being authoritarian.
Sorry, but people in the states and Canada just aren’t being jailed for their political opinions. There’s nothing even remotely like https://youtu.be/TbzV1it1YPY or https://twitter.com/nikorepi/status/1503096676575236098 happening in North America…
They literally are. Go look at what RCMP does to the Indigenous people protecting their land in Canada as an example. When Canada wants to run a pipeline through indigenous land, that hasn’t been ceded I might add, they’ll brutalize and arrest as many people as they want. The fact that you believe there is nothing like this happening in North America is pathetic.
Abuse of Indigenous people is political violence on top of the genocide Canadian settlers committed.
Lots of white privilege on display here.
But this is not the same thing. This is people demonstrating by physically disrupting projects. We can agree or disagree about the validity of their movement, like I myself don’t want us to build more pipelines, but clearly there’s a difference. These people using more than just speech and persuasion to try and achieve their political ends, they are directly trying to intervene physically. Nobody in Canada is being arrested or even stopped from expressing their political outlook, talking to media, or trying to persuade people to join their cause. In fact, levels of government often actually help in these expressions by for instance allowing a protest/march to partially shut down streets for the duration of a demonstrations in major cities like Vancouver and Toronto. Major parties run and even win representation, running on anti-pipeline platforms.
But that freedom of speech and freedom of opinion and of the press does not extend to the point of taking matters into ones own hands. And if you tried to pull off something like this in Russia by physically blocking the construction of a natural gas pipeline I have a feeling that the police would be a lot less tolerant than the RCMP.
It’s just a plain true fact that in Canada we have orders of magnitude more political freedom than in Belarus and Russia.
Illegal projects on unceded land. However, as links I provided show, this is not limited to pipelines being rammed through Indigenous land.
As long as you have blue eye and blond hair.
Nope, sorry. Dead wrong, hyperbolic statement. Nobody in Canada is being arrested for holding up a piece of paper on the street with a political message, regardless of their ethnicity. Yes, indigenous people are treated unfairly by the police, in some cases even murdered by the police. But this is a completely different topic than that of political freedom.
Regarding the starlight tours, this is utterly unrelated to the freedom of speech issue. Yes, police have abused indigenous people in the past and in some cases are still doing so in the present but we acknowledge this as a society all the way to the top offices of the country. We have a judicial system which is attempts to correct this and even compensate for biases such as the Gladue Report etc.
By any reasonable definition, Canada is much more politically free than Russia/Belarus. A reasonable bar to say that Canada enjoys political freedom is not “no injustice ever occurs on in Canada” or “police never abuse anyone in Canada” or “the state has never violated freedom of speech/expression even once”. If we are going to have the bar that high, then literally no society ever in history, or probably in the future, can adhere to this definition of freedom of speech so the phrase becomes useless and your criticism of Canadian society becomes meaningless because no society in the real universe can ever live up to your ideal.
A more reasonable definition would be something like “almost everyone, almost all the time, enjoys basically unlimited ability to express their political opinions without being subjected to persecution from the state” and we undoubtedly have that in Canada, and more so than in just about any other country. No police officer is going to do anything to any indigenous person for just holding up a protest sign in downtown Vancouver or Winnipeg or Toronto.
This is not at all true in Russia. People are arrested for as little as holding up a blank piece of paper, let alone an actually dissenting opinion!
That’s a false statement. Harassment of Indigenous people is fundamentally political in nature. Canada illegally occupied unceded land that belongs to these people, and it violates their sovereignty. This is a political issue.
If you’re white.
You set up a false narrative that ignores actual political activity of Indigenous people that they get arrested and even murdered for.
I’ll also remind you what Canadian government did when the trucker protest blocked the bridge to US. Whatever we might say about this protest, it definitely was peaceful and citizens were expressing their views in a democratic fashion. The government invoked emergency powers to disperse this protest. Interestingly, this protest was allowed to go on right up to the point where it started affecting business interests.
What exactly are you even saying here? Are you saying that non-white people don’t have more political freedom / freedom of speech than a non-white person in Russia? I have never seen anyone, not even a person of colour, taken away by police immediately as soon as they so much as hold up a piece of blank paper.
Okay I know you don’t want to admit that you used hyperbole and I know that you probably like really love Russia and Belarus and don’t like Canada and you disagree with our whole society and everything but you really are not staying focused on what we’re talking about. Your claim is that Western countries like USA and Canada bestow less freedom to their populations and are more authoritarian than Russia and Belarus. This is just plain false. That isn’t to say that all political activity, broadly defined, is permitted. Virtually anything and everything could come under the banner of political activity, and so obviously there are going to be limitations on it. In Canada that tends to be when your political activity infringes on the rights of others in society. Yes, we live in a Capitalist society so that includes people’s property right. Protesters in Canada are only removed from the situation by the police when they do things like physically block people or projects or disrupt infrastructure.
You know perfectly well that that kind of political activity is not tolerated in virtually any society, least of all Russia and Belarus.
deleted by creator
I encourage you to read chapter 10 in this book that invalidates your narrative.
Hahah I knew it would be a parenti book :D
Parenti did some heroic work documenting the sins of the empire.
I did not realize this database existed, so a sincere thank you for providing a link.
Book time!
finally, one down