Sup comrades,

Over the past couple of weeks I’ve heard more and more comrades posit something along the lines of: Multipolarity is a material reality resulting from increased levels of global socialization of production.

I think it’s an interesting explanation, because it leads us away from the vague, normative position many liberals and right-wingers are currently adopting when talking about multipolarity.

But here’s my question/issue: On the regional/national level increased socialization of production leads to greater interdependencies between regions, industries, etc. Okay, we’re seeing this on a global scale too. Problem is, from my understanding, these interdependencies and other mechanisms led to increasing levels of centralization of capital. Arguably we’ve seen this over time leading to the large, centralized modern bourgeois nation-states and monopolies. So the question is - how would this result in anything but unipolarity over time?

In fact, we’ve seen this happen in the first half of the 20th century. Centralization on the national level led to the development of multiple competing “poles” before WW1, then WW2 and then after 1945. However, these, as argued, developed exactly one thing: unipolarity after 1990 and up until today (questionable).

So how does an increase in socialization of production globally explain a move away from unipolarity and centralization of capital and power?

Is the contradiction between socialized production vs privatized appropriation that, as marxism argues, brings forth the necessity of socialization of ownership on the regional/national level sufficient to explain this phenomenon globally or what am I missing?

  • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 years ago

    I’d suggest that we’ve just about reached the limits of imperialism. It will be with us for some time, still. But it cannot sustain itself for much longer. Not to say it’s decline will be smooth or pretty. And it could always be rebuilt, although the planet would likely not survive it.

    Capitalism is cracking apart under the weight of it’s own contradictions. Such as the US having the power to instruct Europe to deindustrualise and implode, backfiring and strengthening the Ruble, etc. This would not have been possible even a hundred years ago – Britain, then, for example, might have had the power to force it’s dependencies to destroy themselves, but not multiple advanced capitalist core states all at the same time. No state, back then, could have done to the whole of Europe what the US has done this last year.

    The difference between now and earlier epochs is that today there are powerful socialist forces in place to prevent a return to unipolarity (once multipolarity is ‘complete’). Socialist thought is also more popular than it might seem according to ‘official’ sources. We’ll soon be at the stage where liberalism not only cannot offer solutions but cannot give the appearance of offering solutions, either.

    Once the world fully pivots away from the US and the global north loses easy access to all the things that make living relatively affordable, even liberals in the global north will have to start answering the question of how to sustain their quality of life without socialism. The stark reality will start to destroy the Anglo-European exceptionalism that goes hand in hand with chauvinism.

    This is an optimistic assessment, I admit. But it’s either this, nuclear war, or climate catastrophe. And we probably aren’t surviving the latter two, so there’s no point worrying about what that would look like (unless we’re worrying about it so as to prevent it).

    • sinovictorchan@lemmygrad.ml
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      2 years ago

      Capitalism could still exist in the USA even after they lose their free riding privilege as long as they make the USA into a puppet state of another powerful country like Russia or China.

      • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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        2 years ago

        I can see it continuing almost everywhere for another few decades, maybe even a century. But things will improve so long as the emerging socialist states prevent capitalism from turning into imperialism again as it declines.

  • cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 years ago

    Unipolarity and western hegemony was only possible so long as the west had dominance in industrial production and technological advances. They acquired this lead due to colonialism and imperialism wrecking other countries’ productive capacities (most notably India and China which used to vastly outproduce Europe before the industrial revolution) and extracting wealth from the global south while keeping it underdeveloped. However as the rate of profit of industrial capital in the imperial core declined they were forced to start exporting capital to the periphery. In the short term this restores profitability to the imperial core in the form of neoliberal financialization but in the long term this lets the periphery catch up in terms of industry and technology. This is what we have seen happen with China and what will happen with the rest of the global south as well provided it can assert its independence to pursue rational economic policies and mutually beneficial trade relations that lead to real development. This is the opposite of the process that occurred before WW1 where the colonial subjugation of the global south prevented such development and when industrial capital in the imperial core was just entering the monopoly phase.

    • KommandoGZD@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      2 years ago

      Yes, I 100% agree. I’m just struggling to see how socialization is driving these higher level phenomena (as I’m hearing more and more comrades state). Like, if this argument is true, why on a global scale increased socialization of production, increased interdependencies do not lead to ever increasing centralization of capital - or at least why, after a period of this, it is decentralizing again. How does socialization explain this? We’re not seeing this on the regional/nation level after all. We’re not seeing modern bourgeois nation states balkanizing due to emerging poles and decentralization of capital within them (at least yet lol).

      The basic Marxist take on socialization is that is contains the contradiction between private appropriation and social production, which at some point becomes antagonistic and creates the need for social ownership. I guess my question is, on a global scale, is this emerging multipolarity an expression of this contradiction in a different way or how exactly the people making this argument see this working out.

  • Water Bowl Slime@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 years ago

    I think the biggest difference between now and the 1900s is that this time, one of the geopolitical poles isn’t competing. That is, it’s not invading, not inciting revolutions, not creating monopolies, not making countries pick a side. Plus it has the relative security of having basically the entire planet relying on its production, especially the other poles.

    I’d argue that the multipolarity of the past was destroyed by the profit drive of capitalist superpowers. But there’s no reason why socialist multipolarity would lead to the same global infighting.

    • sinovictorchan@lemmygrad.ml
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      2 years ago

      Capitalists rely on uni-polarity to maintain peace and order because they focus on conflicts, coercion, deception, and plunder of the majority of the 99% by the rich 1%. Mutual cooperation for mutual benefit could only exist between a very small minority in Capitalism. Socialism emphasis cooperative relation by the people so peace and order is possible in Socialist multi-polarity.

  • sinovictorchan@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 years ago

    I do not know what you mean by ‘socialization’ of production. If you meant democratization or decentralization of production, then it is becoming possible with the rising power of Russia under Populist Putin and China under Xi Jinping which allow former European colonies to gain development through other means than bootlicking foreign free riders with imperialist agenda. Donald Trump also did move America away from the American government’s monopoly over the global public sector with the conflict between conservative elites and metrpolitan elites in the USA.

    Also, the current centralized modern bourgeois nation-states arise from free riding and forced dependencies on states and institutions from Western Europeans and Western European emigrants who use the very government intervention by Western European emigrants that they complained about to oppose government by colored people; I do not see how the centralization of capital is from socialization as much as it has to do with authoritarianism by Western European diaspora.

    The Western European empires and countries of Western European emigrants gain their success through the plunder of resource, industrial technology, fruit of the labor by colored people, and horticultural skills from enslaved colored people that allow them to become great power in the global scale. They then maintain their uni-polarity through the destruction of the civilization of the colonized people and the credit thief of what is left of the civilization from the people that they colonized.

    • Shrike502@lemmygrad.ml
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      2 years ago

      I do not know what you mean by ‘socialization’ of production. If you meant democratization or decentralization of production

      Going to go on a limb and say they meant socialisation of production in a Marxist sense. As in, it takes many people to produce things, hence the separation of labor, etc.

    • KommandoGZD@lemmygrad.mlOP
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      2 years ago

      As the other comrade said, I mean socialization of production in the Marxist sense - the historical process of production developing from an individual activity (mostly isolated, small scale subsistence under feudalism) into a social, increasingly collective process. The production of any given good now becomes a social act. As they said, it emerges from and demands division of labour and equally brings forth and necessitates increasingly centralized education, wide-spread infrastructure, longer and longer supply chains, thus creating and being dependant upon increasing connection and interdependencies between regions, etc etc.

      I do not see how the centralization of capital is from socialization as much as it has to do with authoritarianism by Western European diaspora

      I mean but authoritarianism emerging from what? From changes in the base structure, namely the socialization of production which creates the bourgeoisie itself and subsequently the need for and the means to an “authoritarianism of the Western European bourgeoisie”.

      They then maintain their uni-polarity through the destruction of the civilization of the colonized people and the credit thief of what is left of the civilization from the people that they colonized.

      Sure, but that’s not the point I’m questioning in OP. The question is which changes in the base structure of global imperialism create a multipolar world and why we’re seeing a decentralization of capital when the common understanding of the socialization of production is that it leads to centralization of capital.