Lokinet is a onion-router (like tor, i2p) implementation of the LLARP protocol which tries to be a modern re-implementation of i2p. Session is a private messenger (like Signal) built using lokinet to hide metadata. If I understand correctly they have a cryptocurrency called oxen, which is earned or mined by providing servers to the loki network and oxen blockchain.
Imo they have these arguments on their side:
- i2p is really slow and if re-implementing yields the results they claim it would be awesome
- building a private messenger on top of onion-routing seems like a very good idea, since metadata is the new surveillance while it doesn’t generate massive amounts of traffic per user
What I worry about:
- I don’t like cryptocurrencies in general, they haven’t yet proven that they can be used as anything but be used to speculate.
- if people who are supposed to be the backbone of the onion-routing service are paid to do this I worry that in some (maybe new and still unknown) way this will weaken the network in comparison to a network run by volunteers and users (like tor and i2p). Maybe this will favor larger servers so all of the onion-routing is done in “the cloud” and none from home which in result is easier to surveil.
- a talk at the yearly chaos computer congress about the alt-rights online behavior titled “Let’s play Infokrieg” (the talk is in German, but I linked the version with english live translation) talks about lokinet and how the developer advertised it on 8chan. This is all the connection they mention though and it’s pretty thin Imo.
- in general I believe that cryptocurrencies don’t draw a very good crowd, also
- I haven’t seen any reputable source advertise any of this. Not Lokinet, not session messenger, of course not their crypto coin…
Conclusion:
All of this isn’t a big problem, if they stay a small project. But them having the fastest onion-router, elon musk maybe tweeting about them and people flocking to them to “invest” might have the project gain momentum and them being the new tor or even bigger, applications built on top of it being a threat to signal etc.
I think some of their tech is very cool, a fast and modern onion-router could be very important for future secure web applications, but it’s troublesome
- it’s in the hands of people nobody knows
- motivated by financial gain
- coupled with cryptocurrency
What are your thoughts on this? I am really interested to hear, how we should tackle this in your opinion.
Hey, i’m the CTO at Oxen, just wanted to take some time out to answer the questions/concerns in this post and related comments.
Actually we think that the cryptocurrency aspect of things improves the networks ability to resist really common attacks like Sybil attacks and generally improves the quality of the nodes added to the network. Sybil attacks for example are much more expensive on Lokinet, since each Service Node operator needs to stake 15,000 Oxen to start a new Service Node, which is approximately $17,000 USD. Particularly it creates a feedback loop where the more Oxen that is bought off the market and locked into Service Nodes, the more expensive it becomes to buy more Oxen and lock it into Service Nodes. The other main advantage is we can enforce desirable network behavior by locking a Service Node’s stake, which means we can create a fairly large network of always online, high bandwidth nodes https://oxendashboard.com/#4 . We think this is an advantage over I2P, which is a larger network, but is mostly comprised of low bandwidth and low reliability nodes which exacerbates performance issues. Although your points about most Service Nodes running inside of data centers is true, we must ask the question as to whether we can build a viable, widely used onion routing network just using personal computers and residential internet connections? to me it seems that the need for high bandwidth onion routing has outweighed the need for lower bandwidth routing as evidenced by the adoption levels of Tor vs I2P, considering that most Tor routers also run inside data centers.
This is incorrect, that post where Jeff, the primary developer of Lokinet is promoting Lokinet is actually on Endchan not 8Chan/8Kun. We don’t have any association with the alt right, and the non-for-profit that develops Lokinet https://optf.ngo is fairly apolitical mostly focusing on defending human rights and furthering privacy enhancing technologies.
We don’t really make an effort to hide the team or anything, many of us have public profiles, an out of date list of some of our team members can be found here https://loki.network/team/
This is pure coincidence, LLARP stands for Low Latency Onion Routing Protocol, i forget what WIZARD stood for but it was something similarly onion routing related. We aren’t designing protocol names to dogwhistle to alt-right groups.
I see that the announcement advertising post wasn’t on 8chan or 8kun but overchan, which makes sense, since jeff worked on nntp-chan. Sorry that I claimed they did.
8kun (rebrand after 8chan was banned) does host their site on lokinet and still does, for two years now though, right?
Also there is this reddit post where someone claims that
Their name actually is Jim Watkins and wikipedia also states that
What is going on here? Nothing to do with the Oxen, lokinet etc?
Is it just a coincidence that the biggest site hosted on your network is 8kun?
Also: $17k min investment to help the network, lmao that’s insane and I can’t imagine that does any good.
8kun only had a SNApp on Lokinet for about 2-3 weeks, they also had a .onion site on Tor too, but at that point Lokinet was very new and the network could not handle any real production level scale, so they quickly had technical issues and left.
8kun doesn’t have any SNApp / .loki address that i know about, and it hasn’t been the case for years that they have had 8kun running on Lokinet
Also coincidence, Loki Technology Inc and Project ODIN have no relationship to Oxen (Formerly Loki) I’ve never met any of the 8kun people, Jim watkins, Ron watkins or any of them, and didnt know about them before they started using Lokinet to host 8kun. We started Oxen (Formerly Loki) in 2018 in Australia and had no idea about 8chan.
Its a different type of network structure, it has been essential in forming our network of nearly ~1,800 Service Nodes which act as the routers in Lokinet
I found another interesting article:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-11-08/8chan-is-back-online-and-an-australian-startup-accidently-helped/11682438
But I think all in all there isn’t clear intent here, so we’ll just have to see what the future brings.
Good luck to your team and such.
I’d like to host a router if there ever is a fork that doesn’t need the Oxen stake.
Thanks for addressing the points!