why the people of the donbas didn’t appeal to the UN to establish independence
They did. No country outside of South Ossetia, itself an unrecognized country, recognized their independence. Sadly not even Cuba did when specifically asked. Yes that means Russia also didn’t. Despite significant internal pressure to do that (most significantly, by the communist party), Putin and Russian government hoped for peaceful resolution by the Minsk agreements. This turned out to be mistake since both west and Ukraine never intended to honor those agreements but used them to arm up Ukraine. Between 2014 and 2022 international situation changed significantly though, Ukraine buildup for the all out invasion of Donbas finally forced Russian govt to decide, either join the war or just watch as Donbas is massacred (and potentially risk political instablity in crucial time since it would be incredibly unpopular move which could easily lead to lose nationalist support for govt).
I can’t see why Russia committed mass murder on civilian population.
They didn’t. Civilian losses are very low in that war, UN estimated it for around 10000 dead (for both sides). Compare it to when US Shock and Awe any country and kill milllions. Russia is incredibly restrained as far as the modern warfare goes.
Expected? By whom? Liberals seems to expect millions because they as usual projected the US army standard. I said America not because some kind of dreaded whataboutism or deflections, i used that example because as foremost warmonger on the planet they do set up the standard of contemporary warfare, which is to bomb everything, drone weddings, burn cities with white phosphorus, poison the earth and people with defoliants and depleted uranium, drop millions of bombs that kill people even decades later… yet no one else except their puppets seem to even want to get close to that standard. And look, they are sending the same shit to Ukraine.
Bucha is a red herring. The event was thoroughly investigated the very day after it was suddenly mediatized, and two pieces of evidence stick out:
The mayor of Bucha, when UA retook control of the city, made no reference to any mass murders or anything. He certainly would have mentioned it if he knew about it.
Videos were filmed shortly (a day or two) also before UA retook the city, and there were no bodies in the streets.
These civilians were killed by Ukraine. They didn’t publicize it right after they retook the city, it took them a few days to talk about it – plenty of time to commit a massacre. There’s more inconsistencies but these are the two big ones to me. Like some people raised the problem that the bodies looked very fresh (and that nobody talked about the massacre online before UA retook the city), when the official narrative was that the massacre was committed a month before.
edit: as for mass graves, one of them I believe to have been made by Ukraine. I couldn’t tell you which one exactly though at this time, but Esha K. talked about it on twitter. Russia had made proper graves and even brought UA POWs to witness the processions. They filmed everything and that’s why I mentioned Esha, she has the video on her twitter somewhere. They had also offered to send the bodies to Ukraine for proper burial, which Ukraine refused. So they buried these soldiers themselves. Ukraine then opened the graves and threw the bodies in a mass grave to once again pin something on Russia.
Remember that Ukraine has committed verifiable war crimes (they boast about them) in just the first months of the war, I posted about this before trying to keep track of them.
There was another red herring, a woman supposedly wearing nail polish, which NAFO trolls jumped on to claim she was a civilian, but there are women in the UA army and they’re allowed to wear nail polish like you don’t stop wearing it just because you’re a soldier. So it doesn’t mean anything.
The nyt(yea I know) deep dive convinced me at least a large part of killings were carried out by Russian soldiers. Tying phones, street cameras and other evidence to specific deaths was fairly exhaustive. It seems a case of revenge killing and is still a war crime. Massacres do happen and soldiers who commit them should be prosecuted, although I doubt the nyt would spend the hours to do this and call for the prosecutions on Americans for the millions who died in the middle east.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/21/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-massacre-victims.html
You can say well the Ukrainian push for regular people to fight back or whatever leads to things like this and you can be right. I don’t think that gets these soldiers off the hook.
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They did. No country outside of South Ossetia, itself an unrecognized country, recognized their independence. Sadly not even Cuba did when specifically asked. Yes that means Russia also didn’t. Despite significant internal pressure to do that (most significantly, by the communist party), Putin and Russian government hoped for peaceful resolution by the Minsk agreements. This turned out to be mistake since both west and Ukraine never intended to honor those agreements but used them to arm up Ukraine. Between 2014 and 2022 international situation changed significantly though, Ukraine buildup for the all out invasion of Donbas finally forced Russian govt to decide, either join the war or just watch as Donbas is massacred (and potentially risk political instablity in crucial time since it would be incredibly unpopular move which could easily lead to lose nationalist support for govt).
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They didn’t. Civilian losses are very low in that war, UN estimated it for around 10000 dead (for both sides). Compare it to when US Shock and Awe any country and kill milllions. Russia is incredibly restrained as far as the modern warfare goes.
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Expected? By whom? Liberals seems to expect millions because they as usual projected the US army standard. I said America not because some kind of dreaded whataboutism or deflections, i used that example because as foremost warmonger on the planet they do set up the standard of contemporary warfare, which is to bomb everything, drone weddings, burn cities with white phosphorus, poison the earth and people with defoliants and depleted uranium, drop millions of bombs that kill people even decades later… yet no one else except their puppets seem to even want to get close to that standard. And look, they are sending the same shit to Ukraine.
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Bucha is a red herring. The event was thoroughly investigated the very day after it was suddenly mediatized, and two pieces of evidence stick out:
These civilians were killed by Ukraine. They didn’t publicize it right after they retook the city, it took them a few days to talk about it – plenty of time to commit a massacre. There’s more inconsistencies but these are the two big ones to me. Like some people raised the problem that the bodies looked very fresh (and that nobody talked about the massacre online before UA retook the city), when the official narrative was that the massacre was committed a month before.
edit: as for mass graves, one of them I believe to have been made by Ukraine. I couldn’t tell you which one exactly though at this time, but Esha K. talked about it on twitter. Russia had made proper graves and even brought UA POWs to witness the processions. They filmed everything and that’s why I mentioned Esha, she has the video on her twitter somewhere. They had also offered to send the bodies to Ukraine for proper burial, which Ukraine refused. So they buried these soldiers themselves. Ukraine then opened the graves and threw the bodies in a mass grave to once again pin something on Russia.
Remember that Ukraine has committed verifiable war crimes (they boast about them) in just the first months of the war, I posted about this before trying to keep track of them.
There was another red herring, a woman supposedly wearing nail polish, which NAFO trolls jumped on to claim she was a civilian, but there are women in the UA army and they’re allowed to wear nail polish like you don’t stop wearing it just because you’re a soldier. So it doesn’t mean anything.
The nyt(yea I know) deep dive convinced me at least a large part of killings were carried out by Russian soldiers. Tying phones, street cameras and other evidence to specific deaths was fairly exhaustive. It seems a case of revenge killing and is still a war crime. Massacres do happen and soldiers who commit them should be prosecuted, although I doubt the nyt would spend the hours to do this and call for the prosecutions on Americans for the millions who died in the middle east. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/21/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-massacre-victims.html
You can say well the Ukrainian push for regular people to fight back or whatever leads to things like this and you can be right. I don’t think that gets these soldiers off the hook.
What cause? This entire conflict has been instigated by the West.
I sympathize with the Ukrainian people, but not the Ukranian government marching them to die in an unwinnable war.
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That plus the coup, that led to the problems with the Russian language (?) and subsequent shelling and war in the east.